List Mgmt. Trade & F.A. 2017 (if a scenario sounds wrong - read on before posting)

[soreplums]

2018 game plan might have something to say about recruitment.

 

[jmac70]

1. Facts are facts unfortunately. Lever at 20/21 played 20 games, Taylor at 20/21 played zero games.
2. Lever played in a premiership at age 21. Harry Taylor played in the Cats 2009 premiership aged 23, albeit with one of the best backlines of all time.
3. Taylor is hardly renowned as a clamp and certainly not fast. I'd wager he's slower than Lever which makes it a doubly odd comparison
4. I suspect you focused on Taylor because every other KP player you mentioned is pantsed by Lever at the same age
5. That you compare Scharenberg to Lever has you repeating the same mistakes again. Langdon's numbers are comparable to Levers but I think if you took the view on the main board that Lever and Langdon are comparable, I think we know what the response would be from the people with eyeballs. And rightly so.
6. I'm not pigeon holing him as a player, quite the opposite, so you might have to argue with yourself about that

To summarise, he's a terrific young player ahead of the curve. I think he can play one-on-one if needed but he's better utilised as a loose man setting up play. You don't get the surgeon chopping wood.

Lever played in a premiership?

 

[Scodog10]

1. Facts are facts unfortunately. Lever at 20/21 played 20 games, Taylor at 20/21 played zero games. You only said 21, but whatever.
2. Lever played in a premiership at age 21. Harry Taylor played in the Cats 2009 premiership aged 23, albeit with one of the best backlines of all time. Missed that premiership for Lever? Facts are facts though, yeah.
3. Taylor is hardly renowned as a clamp and certainly not fast. I'd wager he's slower than Lever which makes it a doubly odd comparison. You asked for KPD's Taylor is one unlike Lever...
4. I suspect you focused on Taylor because every other player you mentioned is pantsed by Lever at the same age. Again you asked for guys holding down a KPD role and then made it about numbers. Perhaps you're focusing too much on Taylor.
5. That you compare Scharenberg to Lever has you repeating the same mistakes again. Langdon's numbers are comparable to Levers but I think if you took the view on the main board that Lever and Langdon are comparable, I think we know what the response would be. Might want to double check the numbers Shaz v Lever. Scharenberg's is ahead for score involvements, R50's, total possessions and marks (not bad going for a guy with 10 games to his name). Strange you ignored Burton and Ryan though. What was it you said about focusing on one player only?
6. I'm not pigeon holing him as a player, quite the opposite, so you might have to argue with yourself about that. I think I might given your ramblings...

 

[Old Spice]

Lever played in a premiership?

Grand Final

 

[DaVe86]

Agree with all you say. Dont want to overpay but something like pick 6 and Shaz would work for me. Pick 6 and another 1st rounder, especially next years 1st rounder , would be too much. Pick 6 alone would be a steal but unrealistic.

If we trade pick 6 for 12 + 18 off Brisbane, then those 2 picks probably get the job done. So no need to also throw in Scharenberg.

So in essence it would be pick 6 on it's own. Which would be fine in my opinion, and well worth it.

Again, the problem for me is the price tag. I just think his price has been dramatically inflated as there is no one else on the market. If May didn't re-sign, I reckon Lever would be more around the 700K mark

 

[jmac70]

Grand Final

Bugger. For a moment there I thought the weekend must have just been a bad dream.

 

[Old Spice]

I asked what KP defenders at his age had comparable numbers. Scodog rattled off a bunch that hadn't played at all at his age or hadn't played the post of Key Position. Sorry it didn't work out for you but you need to do your research first.

The point I've been making is that he's 21 and still to fill out so why would you negatively compare him to other KP defenders who didn't perform the same role at his age or weren't even playing!? He has an awesome arsenal already and when he fills out - like the rest that you raised - he'll play more one-on-one, if required.

The other factor is that his decision making and value is wasted as a lock down player. You haven't managed to comprehend that fact.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

1. Facts are facts unfortunately.

...

2. Lever played in a premiership at age 21.

But not all facts are correct
(Sorry being pedantic - and sure you just meant played in a granny).

I think comparing stats with past players is fraught with danger, even with stuff from 5-10 years ago - just given how much the game has changed for defenders, how much their stat numbers have skyrocketed, and with the increased focus on their offensive work you often get away with guys who arent as good, or ready, to be those 1:1 defenders.

Also - Taylor was forcing his way into one of the all time great backlines.

 

[jackcass]

1. Facts are facts unfortunately. Lever at 20/21 played 20 games, Taylor at 20/21 played zero games.
2. Lever played in a premiership at age 21. Harry Taylor played in the Cats 2009 premiership aged 23, albeit with one of the best backlines of all time.
3. Taylor is hardly renowned as a clamp and certainly not fast. I'd wager he's slower than Lever which makes it a doubly odd comparison
4. I suspect you focused on Taylor because every other KP player you mentioned is pantsed by Lever at the same age
5. That you compare Scharenberg to Lever has you repeating the same mistakes again. Langdon's numbers are comparable to Levers but I think if you took the view on the main board that Lever and Langdon are comparable, I think we know what the response would be from the people with eyeballs. And rightly so.
6. I'm not pigeon holing him as a player, quite the opposite, so you might have to argue with yourself about that

To summarise, he's a terrific young player ahead of the curve. I think he can play one-on-one if needed but he's better utilised as a loose man setting up play. You don't get the surgeon chopping wood.

Well he played a Grand Final anyway.

 

[nahnah]

giving up pick 6 and another pick that could easily be top 6 again is madness for a guy that hasn't even proven he is a star of the competition

 

[Gone Critical]

If we trade pick 6 for 12 + 18 off Brisbane, then those 2 picks probably get the job done. So no need to also throw in Scharenberg.

So in essence it would be pick 6 on it's own. Which would be fine in my opinion, and well worth it.

Again, the problem for me is the price tag. I just think his price has been dramatically inflated as there is no one else on the market. If May didn't re-sign, I reckon Lever would be more around the 700K mark

If we can get Lever net for losing pick 6 thats fantastic. I dont see Crows accepting 12 + 18. Hope I am wrong but seems an unrealistic price.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I asked what KP defenders at his age had comparable numbers. Scodog rattled off a bunch that hadn't played at all at his age or hadn't played the post of Key Position. Sorry it didn't work out for you but you need to do your research first.

The point I've been making is that he's 21 and still to fill out so why would you negatively compare him to other KP defenders who didn't do the same at his age. He has an awesome arsenal already and when he fills out - like the rest that you raised - he'll play more one-on-one, if required.

The other factor is that his decision making and value is wasted as a lock down player. You haven't managed to comprehend that fact.

But if he doesnt develop that ability to also do the 1:1 work, which is the combination that makes Rance so great, then what would he be worth?

The reported price (two 1st rounders) is more than we should be playing for a guy who, with his current skill set, doesnt fill a position of need. (The only caveat is if we are confident in McLarty being that lockdown KPD for a decade - but given we havent seen him in the 1's yet, not sure about that... and even then I dont like the price)

 

[Old Spice]

But not all facts are correct
(Sorry being pedantic - and sure you just meant played in a granny).

I think comparing stats with past players is fraught with danger, even with stuff from 5-10 years ago - just given how much the game has changed for defenders, how much their stat numbers have skyrocketed, and with the increased focus on their offensive work you often get away with guys who arent as good, or ready, to be those 1:1 defenders.

Also - Taylor was forcing his way into one of the all time great backlines.

What key position player did Taylor force his way past?

 

[jackcass]

If we can get Lever net for losing pick 6 thats fantastic. I dont see Crows accepting 12 + 18. Hope I am wrong but seems an unrealistic price.

If it's a simple 6 for 12 & 18 and 12 & 18 for Lever then why wouldn't the Crows simple accept 6 and do their own on-trading?

 

[TradeDraft]

giving up pick 6 and another pick that could easily be top 6 again is madness for a guy that hasn't even proven he is a star of the competition

I was Thinking something like this Maybe Pies get Lever and Crows 2017 and 2018 1st Rounder for Our 2017 and 2018 1st Rounders so we be Trading down in the 1st Round for next 2 Drafts

 

[sr36]

We have so many intercept defenders atm that they were often spoiling each other in 2017. Bringing in Lever makes Langdon or Scharenberg redundant and I don't think pick 6 + steak knives is worth the relatively small amount of value that Lever would bring on top of the players we currently have in that role.

I'm coming from a perspective where I don't rate Shaz particularly highly and would use him to help get Lever. I think Lever, Howe, Langdon and Crisp would give us the basis of an excellent unit for the foreseeable future, would just need to add a lockdown tall, which often come pretty cheaply and a pacy solid back pocket.

 

[jackcass]

What key position player did Taylor force his way past?

Was a ready made replacement for Egan but the Cats also had Scarlett, Harley, and Lonergan playing through their defence when he started in 08.

 

[Old Spice]

I think 6 and next years first won't happen. If we can fashion up two first rounds this year that should do the trick. Easier said than done.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Was a ready made replacement for Egan but the Cats also had Scarlett, Harley, and Lonergan playing through their defence when he started in 08.

Plus Millburn and Mackie

 

[Old Spice]

Was a ready made replacement for Egan but the Cats also had Scarlett, Harley, and Lonergan playing through their defence when he started in 08.

Scarlett was at FB. Egans foot was f*cked. Lonergan I would say was the only competition.

 

[Old Spice]

Plus Millburn and Mackie

Back pocket and flanker.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Scarlett was at FB. Egans foot was f*cked. Lonergan I would say was the only competition.

Plus Millburn and Harley who could both play taller.

Pretty hard backline to force your way into as a youngster

 

[Old Spice]

But if he doesnt develop that ability to also do the 1:1 work, which is the combination that makes Rance so great, then what would he be worth?

The reported price (two 1st rounders) is more than we should be playing for a guy who, with his current skill set, doesnt fill a position of need. (The only caveat is if we are confident in McLarty being that lockdown KPD for a decade - but given we havent seen him in the 1's yet, not sure about that... and even then I dont like the price)

This I find interesting. McLarty you have possibly pegged for a KPD spot but a 195 cm gun doesn't fill a position of need.

 

[Axl the great]

Lever will be an upgrade on Scharenberg at this stage, how much of an upgrade long term is the real key as to what he is worth us paying.
I think it is way too much of a risk, considering Shaz improved week after week and still has the scope to be a very good player and play a similar role to Lever.
I would be letting the Lever ship sail and backing ourselves at the draft and or spend the picks on glaring holes in our makeup.
Getting the dynamics of the team right is more important than who is specifically pulling on the jumper, Lever in a Collingwood outfit that still plays lost, clueless and confusing footy is just wasted.

 

[jackcass]

Scarlett was at FB. Egans foot was f*cked. Lonergan I would say was the only competition.

Yes, Egan's foot was fcuked, hence he had to be replaced. I was just highlighting the talls that were already in the Cats defence when Taylor started. And as didaksrightfoot highlighted, I didn't even include the Milburn and Mackie types who played the medium - tall roles. Lonergan, Harley and Scarlett isn't a bad trio to squeeze into.