Unofficial Preview Rd 22 Geelong v Fremantle at KP.. does it even matter ?

[you pick one]

http://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/2018-08-14/stanley-to-miss-dockers-clash

'Meanwhile, fringe midfielders George Horlin-Smith and Jordan Murdoch were each fined $500 for separate dangerous tackles during the Cats' VFL win on Saturday night against Essendon.'

Now we're talking. I'd be playing Murdoch on Langdon and just shutting his drive down completely.

Murdoch on Kersten,shades of Carey v Jakovich.

 

[TheYid]

I think it's a bit of both. The common sense approach never seems to be the way the cats go. Rather try for the tricky fix. Many of us suggested playing both Stanley and Abbott against the Hawks given they were down their best ruckman, Abbott had a good debut and Stanley coming back from injury. Stanley goes down, Henry shifted to ruck, we leak goals. Seriously frustrating. At least move Blitz straight to ruck and Henry back. Again that's the common sense approach but they wait until Henry is getting slaughtered to make the move.

He's been doing this crap all year. I'm sick of it actually. Leaving undersized and under-experienced Henry in the ruck for a quarter cost us the game. Both against Tigers and Hawks. We bled goals in both those games giving our opponents that break they needed. The rest was catch up footy.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Henry is a 19yo first year player 191cm and 92 kgs,I wound't need 2 seconds to work out how that would go,In a blink of an eye it should have Blits in the to ruck and Henry down back.The game hand got away from Scott and his assistants before they started to steady the ship.

It's actually worse than that - If I'm not mistaken we had Henry as our second ruck.
Clarkson counters by picking 2 rucks and hey presto - even if Stanley plays the full game we lose momentum when he rests and Henry plays ruck
Henry is a raw 19yo who shows great potential down back or lately as a tall forward option ( ideally 3rd tall behind Tom and Sav IMO ) - just as well the kid has mental strength as exposure like that against taller and stronger opponents can dent confidence badly - Zuthrie and Parsons for example.
One of Smith or Abbot needs to play as a tall forward/ruck to complement Stanley

 

[OddYears]

It's actually worse than that - If I'm not mistaken we had Henry as our second ruck.
Clarkson counters by picking 2 rucks and hey presto - even if Stanley plays the full game we lose momentum when he rests and Henry plays ruck
Henry is a raw 19yo who shows great potential down back or lately as a tall forward option ( ideally 3rd tall behind Tom and Sav IMO ) - just as well the kid has mental strength as exposure like that against taller and stronger opponents can dent confidence badly - Zuthrie and Parsons for example.
One of Smith or Abbot needs to play as a tall forward/ruck to complement Stanley

Really shows how far apart Scott and Clarkson are.

 

[you pick one]

It's actually worse than that - If I'm not mistaken we had Henry as our second ruck.
Clarkson counters by picking 2 rucks and hey presto - even if Stanley plays the full game we lose momentum when he rests and Henry plays ruck
Henry is a raw 19yo who shows great potential down back or lately as a tall forward option ( ideally 3rd tall behind Tom and Sav IMO ) - just as well the kid has mental strength as exposure like that against taller and stronger opponents can dent confidence badly - Zuthrie and Parsons for example.
One of Smith or Abbot needs to play as a tall forward/ruck to complement Stanley

In total agreement,last week I posted it was time to run two genuine rucks,it may not be the answer but sure as God made little green apples what we are doing now hasn't and will not work.

 

[Rubberducky]

Really shows how far apart Scott and Clarkson are.

11 points is far apart? With Stanley injured and Touhys broken hand, we missed 2 reasonable chances to take the lead late in the forth.

That's how far apart Clarkson and Scott are. Given they spoke of Clarkson yesterday as the greatest coach of the modern era, I'll take that a huge compliment to Scotty.

 

[OddYears]

11 points is far apart? With Stanley injured and Touhys broken hand, we missed 2 reasonable chances to take the lead late in the forth.

That's how far apart Clarkson and Scott are. Given they spoke of Clarkson yesterday as the greatest coach of the modern era, I'll take that a huge compliment to Scotty.

You can spin it any way you want. Scott is no where near Clarkson.

 

[cynical]

Scott hates rucks and outside players, also hates giving young players continuity.

Should be playing 2 rucks, why risk Henry.

If its Taylor or Henderson as second ruck then it doesn't matter cos they are old and cooked but putting in a young undersized player is just dumb and too risky.

 

[Rubberducky]

You can spin it any way you want. Scott is no where near Clarkson.

69% Win Loss ratio for Scott is ahead of Clarkson but its over a shorter period so far.
I think both are amazing coaches. I know many want to hate on Chris Scott for not selecting the side we want to see or not winning the games we could have won. I just actually respect his design on 2018 and feel strongly with a bit of luck we're a genuine chance. Just like last year.

For this week, I'd love to see Murda or GHS get a run for Parsons. Whomever we have most likely to keep in the squad for the first final. I think 2 ruckman might not fit the design we were aiming at with a Buzza/Sav option as a legit backup. So Harry probably gets the nod for forward/ruck.

 

[goyoucatters]

His finals record speaks for itself. It’s disastrous.

Premiership coach. Who's clearly struggled on several occasions since, losing a number of finals we were expected to win.

As for comparing him to other coaches, the difference is Scott never learns.
Look at all the predictable patterns
*losing after a bye
*dropping important games regularly
*continually picking failed players
*an inability to make moves during a game
*predictable and dated game plan

Certainly looking forward to (hopefully) making finals and testing the 'bye' theory once again. We did manage to avoid the malaise in the first week of finals in '16, though.

Does win important games regularly as well. Enough to qualify for finals in every season bar one, thus far.

'Picking failed players'? Perhaps. I think it's just as much a case of picking from an assortment of 'failed players'. Our playing list is not well balanced across the park. Which is hardly surprising, considering how high we've finished year after year since he came to the club. And the dearth of high-quality draft picks we've garnered as a result.

Moves during the game...Not sure how many coaches go the Sheedy path these days. I watched the Craas change pretty much nothing as the GF ebbed away from them last year. Plenty of coaches trust their system for a game and only tinker around the edges during the match itself.

Game plan is clearly changing over time as well. We have been better to watch for longer this year than in previous seasons. Surely this is a function of 'playing to your strengths' and limiting your deficiencies, in any case.

His H&A record means nothing. Propped up by a strong playing group and home ground advantage. How many games does he actually win when ‘it matters.

H&A record is vital for every club. It's the only way to play finals and have a shot at the flag.

I would dispute how strong the playing group is as well. Looks to be some serious holes in the forward line and lacks any meaningful depth in the ruck role. Overall, our bottom 6 in any given week are just about as poor as any team in the entire competition.

As for home ground advantage, we get less of it than any other team in the comp. Given we don't play 11 at home (and won't, in the foreseeable future), we are disadvantaged on this front year after year.

We've won enough games when it matters to consistently make finals for a number of seasons. And, as this season's H&A results will probably prove, we'll miss top 4 simply because the coaching/playing group didn't bring it in an 'unimportant' game against the Dogs (which Harry still could have redeemed for us), alongside Junior missing a goal most would expect him to kick against the premiers. Two straight kicks away from the upper echelon once again.

Another thing, how many players have actually developed or gotten better under Scott? I’m not talking about giving blokes like Parsons free games, that’s not development.
How many players are actually better players now than when they first arrived at the club?

Of the current list, I'll go the following as players who have developed under Scott:

Parfitt
Kolo
Duncan
Bews
Hawkins
Mena
Guthrie (has since stagnated)
Cunico
Henry
Stewart
Blitz

There's plenty who are treading water, I admit. But I think most would also acknowledge that players like Tuohy, Hendo and Danger have come on further since joining us as well. There's not an entire wasteland in terms of player development at Geelong, particularly given the lack of really early picks for many, many seasons.

KPIs which to measure Scott’s ‘competence’

List strength =fail
Game plan = fail
Win / Loss record = pass
Finals record = fail
Player development = fail
Ability to influence games during diversity = fail
Ability to motivate players = fail.


Scott is incompetent by every measure but 1. We will backwards even further next year under him, then backwards de again the year after.

The finals record is an overall 'fail', I agree. With the very notable exception of a flag thrown in to the mix as well.

Apart from that, you can mark all these KPI's as 'fail' if you like. But the objective evidence found in the win/loss record of the team under his tenure suggests that in fact they are all at least a pass. In my view, you can't have a 'fail' in all those areas and win so many more games than you lose over such a long period.

As for your assertion about '19 and '20, it's just that. An assertion based on nothing more than your personal assessment of Scott's competence.

I accept that Scott has various faults and failings in his coaching style. That is most definitely not in question.

I simply do not believe that he is incompetent as an AFL coach. And I would maintain there is more than enough evidence at both the surface level (overall W/L record) and when you did a little deeper (as I have attempted to do here) to support this position.

Anyway, they're all simply opinions.

And I, like you, do hope to see his finals record tested further again in a few weeks.

 

[calder_daddy]

I'm not sure I'd just be chucking him in to see what happens without stronger VFL form. Heck, JJ had a 5 goal game at VFL level last year and still didn't get a run.

If VFL form meant anything we wouldn’t have a rotation all year, plenty of players have come in after doing nothing and be touted on here as been in good form.
Our only consistent VFL footballers are either not on our list or GHS and Constable

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Premiership coach. Who's clearly struggled on several occasions since, losing a number of finals we were expected to win.



Certainly looking forward to (hopefully) making finals and testing the 'bye' theory once again. We did manage to avoid the malaise in the first week of finals in '16, though.

Does win important games regularly as well. Enough to qualify for finals in every season bar one, thus far.

'Picking failed players'? Perhaps. I think it's just as much a case of picking from an assortment of 'failed players'. Our playing list is not well balanced across the park. Which is hardly surprising, considering how high we've finished year after year since he came to the club. And the dearth of high-quality draft picks we've garnered as a result.

Moves during the game...Not sure how many coaches go the Sheedy path these days. I watched the Craas change pretty much nothing as the GF ebbed away from them last year. Plenty of coaches trust their system for a game and only tinker around the edges during the match itself.

Game plan is clearly changing over time as well. We have been better to watch for longer this year than in previous seasons. Surely this is a function of 'playing to your strengths' and limiting your deficiencies, in any case.



H&A record is vital for every club. It's the only way to play finals and have a shot at the flag.

I would dispute how strong the playing group is as well. Looks to be some serious holes in the forward line and lacks any meaningful depth in the ruck role. Overall, our bottom 6 in any given week are just about as poor as any team in the entire competition.

As for home ground advantage, we get less of it than any other team in the comp. Given we don't play 11 at home (and won't, in the foreseeable future), we are disadvantaged on this front year after year.

We've won enough games when it matters to consistently make finals for a number of seasons. And, as this season's H&A results will probably prove, we'll miss top 4 simply because the coaching/playing group didn't bring it in an 'unimportant' game against the Dogs (which Harry still could have redeemed for us), alongside Junior missing a goal most would expect him to kick against the premiers. Two straight kicks away from the upper echelon once again.



Of the current list, I'll go the following as players who have developed under Scott:

Parfitt
Kolo
Duncan
Bews
Hawkins
Mena
Guthrie (has since stagnated)
Cunico
Henry
Stewart
Blitz

There's plenty who are treading water, I admit. But I think most would also acknowledge that players like Tuohy, Hendo and Danger have come on further since joining us as well. There's not an entire wasteland in terms of player development at Geelong, particularly given the lack of really early picks for many, many seasons.



The finals record is an overall 'fail', I agree. With the very notable exception of a flag thrown in to the mix as well.

Apart from that, you can mark all these KPI's as 'fail' if you like. But the objective evidence found in the win/loss record of the team under his tenure suggests that in fact they are all at least a pass. In my view, you can't have a 'fail' in all those areas and win so many more games than you lose over such a long period.

As for your assertion about '19 and '20, it's just that. An assertion based on nothing more than your personal assessment of Scott's competence.

I accept that Scott has various faults and failings in his coaching style. That is most definitely not in question.

I simply do not believe that he is incompetent as an AFL coach. And I would maintain there is more than enough evidence at both the surface level (overall W/L record) and when you did a little deeper (as I have attempted to do here) to support this position.

Anyway, they're all simply opinions.

And I, like you, do hope to see his finals record tested further again in a few weeks.

Spot on with the parts about the playing list and its evident flaws, and the comment about our diminished home ground advantage.

 

[Landgraft]

At least the playstation picks the best available team

You should see how AFL Evolution thinks the teams should line up...

If VFL form meant anything we wouldn’t have a rotation all year, plenty of players have come in after doing nothing and be touted on here as been in good form.
Our only consistent VFL footballers are either not on our list or GHS and Constable

So if we shouldn't care about VFL form then what metric are we promoting players on? Sounds like you're either more or less interested in intangibles, I legitimately can't tell.

 

[thegerman]

http://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/2018-08-14/stanley-to-miss-dockers-clash

'Meanwhile, fringe midfielders George Horlin-Smith and Jordan Murdoch were each fined $500 for separate dangerous tackles during the Cats' VFL win on Saturday night against Essendon.'

Now we're talking. I'd be playing Murdoch on Langdon and just shutting his drive down completely.

I've got both coming in. Would prefer bigger bodies than the kids right now. Horlo was on fire pre injury


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[romeohwho]

You can spin it any way you want. Scott is no where near Clarkson.

No, he isn’t,but neither is any other coach in the comp. Clarko is in the top 3 of all time most likely. We have a good coach who has made plenty of mistakes. Doesn’t mean we can’t do ok this year.
Had our chances to beat tigers and hawks in the last 2 weeks so not too shabby.

 

[MacStradbroke]

It's actually worse than that - If I'm not mistaken we had Henry as our second ruck.
Clarkson counters by picking 2 rucks and hey presto - even if Stanley plays the full game we lose momentum when he rests and Henry plays ruck
Henry is a raw 19yo who shows great potential down back or lately as a tall forward option ( ideally 3rd tall behind Tom and Sav IMO ) - just as well the kid has mental strength as exposure like that against taller and stronger opponents can dent confidence badly - Zuthrie and Parsons for example.
One of Smith or Abbot needs to play as a tall forward/ruck to complement Stanley

So if most on here get their way we would have a forward line consisting of Menzel, Abbott and GHS. Oh to be a half back flanker playing against that set up!!! Pity the two smalls playing at Toms feet chasing 5 defenders around.

 

[cats_09]

Not sure if mentioned elsewhere - but because we all like some good news on a Tuesday night:

GEELONG forward Daniel Menzel is in a race against the clock to play this weekend due to injury.
Foxfooty.com.au understands the Cats are seriously considering resting the mercurial goalkicker against Fremantle on Saturday as he continues to struggle with groin soreness.
A final decision will be made later in the week.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...d/news-story/ce18c28706f446765cd47df6cbe3f29e

 

[Spearman]

For this game and the next I only hope they choose the best team possible from the players that have played the most this season, no surprise debuts etc. We must chose a squad to win and the players must feel that the MC made their choice with that aim in mind. The culture of the club will be tested in these selections for however many games they have left. They get it right, coach makes the right adjustments, and the players go hard, we could get into the finals and do some damage.
I don't want to see Henry or Hawkins do anymore rucking. Please play 2 rucks, best defensive 6 regardless of how HT is feeling, and best midfield. The forwards?.... eff if I know as long as whoever keep making leads. Even if we don't make finals, I want to see some momentum to finish off the season that can give everyone, the club included, a vision for the next few years. Transition/retool is over, make the plan and push it forward.

 

[Daniel McL]

For the Meat Tray:

OUT - Stanley (calf), Menzel (groin), Parsons (omit), Fogarty (omit).

IN - Z. Smith, Abbott, Murdoch, Miers.

* Bews if fit in for O’Connor (or in for Cuthrie would be nice though won’t happen).

* With Menzel out it could be a good chance to try a two ruck setup. Crameri (a possible Menzel replacement) injured anyway. Obviously Esava would be the perfect 2nd FWD/RUC but ah well. Abbott did well on debut so deserves to come back in, plus Smith has been in good form in the VFL for a few weeks now so I’m okay with giving both of them a go.

* Have a feeling they’ll go one of the rucks and bring Taylor in instead.

* I definitely prefer Murdoch over Parsons. Fogarty possibly a bit exhausted near the end of his first season + not in great form as he’s forced to play in a position that is different to the position he was drafted for, Miers has been pretty good in recent weeks but also understand they’ll probably go the safer option with Jones.

FB: C. Guthrie - Blicavs - Tuohy
HB: Kolodjashnij - Henderson - Stewart
C: Duncan - T. Kelly - G. Ablett
HF: Menegola - Henry - Parfitt
FF: Miers - Hawkins - Narkle
R: Z. Smith - Dangerfield - J. Selwood
INT: S. Selwood, Abbott, Murdoch, O’Connor/Bews.

 

[Baudolino]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-08-14/docker-shock-as-star-could-make-miracle-return

Lol.

Of course.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

For the Meat Tray:

OUT - Stanley (calf), Menzel (groin), Parsons (omit), Fogarty (omit).

IN - Z. Smith, Abbott, Murdoch, Miers.

* Bews if fit in for O’Connor (or in for Cuthrie would be nice though won’t happen).

* With Menzel out it could be a good chance to try a two ruck setup. Crameri (a possible Menzel replacement) injured anyway. Obviously Esava would be the perfect 2nd FWD/RUC but ah well. Abbott did well on debut so deserves to come back in, plus Smith has been in good form in the VFL for a few weeks now so I’m okay with giving both of them a go.

* Have a feeling they’ll go one of the rucks and bring Taylor in instead.

* I definitely prefer Murdoch over Parsons. Fogarty possibly a bit exhausted near the end of his first season + not in great form as he’s forced to play in a position that is different to the position he was drafted for, Miers has been pretty good in recent weeks but also understand they’ll probably go the safer option with Jones.

FB: C. Guthrie - Blicavs - Tuohy
HB: Kolodjashnij - Henderson - Stewart
C: Duncan - T. Kelly - G. Ablett
HF: Menegola - Henry - Parfitt
FF: Miers - Hawkins - Narkle
R: Z. Smith - Dangerfield - J. Selwood
INT: S. Selwood, Abbott, Murdoch, O’Connor/Bews.

No to Miers. One game in the best players all season does not scream pick me.

 

[calder_daddy]

You should see how AFL Evolution thinks the teams should line up...



So if we shouldn't care about VFL form then what metric are we promoting players on? Sounds like you're either more or less interested in intangibles, I legitimately can't tell.

From my point of view, I’ve watched a few VFL games this year both live and on TV and I’ve seen more in Miers than I have in a few players who have gotten a game.
He may flourish even higher at the top level

 

[Larry Donohue]

Is there a difference between the Saints and Geelong? Both teams are not winning the flag so i'd happily put an extra 100k in my pocket. Its also about the security of a longer term contract, if they offer 2 years he will take it because we wont offer that, we have already stated that, thats why he was looking to leave last year. His injuries this year have done nothing to help his cause of getting 2 more years out of Geelong.

Menz is a bright button. Not sure stkilda would be a satisfactory brain tantaliser but otherwise agree. Interesting scotty saying he is pretty sure he will sign with the cats

 

[Larry Donohue]

He would of been delisted at the end of the year anyway.


And this will be backed up when Geelong do absolutely nothing to keep him.
Time to start clearing out the perpetually injured......starting with Menzel and McCarthy

I reckon both re-signed. Gregson and black more likely for the axe

 

[Larry Donohue]

If St.Kilda offer any kind of reasonable draft picks for Menzel we should take the deal without thinking twice.

Not sure they will offer anything to a UFA