AFL Commission considers proposal to backdate footy records to 1870

[Demonic Ascent]

I’ve always said you can only count the premierships since the newest team in the league has made finals. I don’t think you can count the flags in the years with Gold Coast and GWS in their infancy because it wasn’t a fair 18 team competition as neither had a chance of winning. Therefore anything before GWS made finals does not count in my opinion.

Nothing counts til Gold Coast plays finals.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Umm did you notice differences like er interstate competition? ... Or interstate venues?.... or the draft?

How the *%#€. can a 1902 VFL flag be called an AFL flag 90 years before the word AFL had ever been invented or used by anyone anywhere? Was it a clairvoyance flag or something? What was actually written on that flag or cup ffs
Is this bizarro world?

Maybe 90 years after I'm dead my family can invent a new name that no one has ever heard before and then insist that was really my name back then ... with zero historical records letters or photos from back then to prove it

Maybe in this same fictional bizzaro world that state Judo title I got as a kid now magically becomes a National title ( even though a fair minded person may remind and cajole me that I had no interstate National competition for that state title I am trying to revisionalist like assume

DVFL changed its name to the NFL they still recognise DVFL premierships as NFL premierships

SAFA changed to SAFL then SANFL. History wasn't wiped.

 

[Pedro59]

DVFL changed its name to the NFL they still recognise DVFL premierships as NFL premierships

SAFA changed to SAFL then SANFL. History wasn't wiped.

But did they change from a one state only comp with no interstate competition whatsoever to a National Comp???

 

[Pedro59]

Wow. Just wow. There is stupidity and then there's this.

Wow great contribution on the subject ...

Ssshh everybody...don't joke around this guy ...he won't get it ...or understand it.

 

[Pedro59]

Pedro59 after your tirade I can firmly say I really pity you. I hope you get the help you deserve.

Looks like I am making a difference

I hope you get some help too to make a contribution maybe to the OP ?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

So if 12 flags is in no way superior to 2 flags, does that not suggest that the way we look at these records needs a bit of work? No one is suggesting that we ignore history, the VFL flags still exist, it's just that they remain less relevant in a national competition as opposed to the state league they were won in.

It's got nothing to do with relevance. It's to do with the fact Adelaide have been in the comp for 28 years for 2 flags while Melbourne have been in the comp for 122 years (excluding the two years we sat out due to the War) for 12 flags. If the Giants win the next 12 flags they're 12 from 18 years would be a superior achievement to 12 from 134 years. Doesn't make the individual premierships more or less relevant though.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I'm not doing that, I'm just asking why we have to include VFL flags in the AFL, when they are clearly two different competitions, regardless of how the AFL evolved. Melbourne was a successful VFL club, but for that to translate into them being a vastly superior AFL club to Adelaide, or that St Kilda and Port Adelaide both share a forlorn and unsuccessful history (as the record would dictate) is a bit silly. Why can't we compare like for like? If you want to compare the records of clubs who were in both the VFL and the AFL, then fine, but why can't we also have a stand alone AFL only category?

You can do whatever you want for any pissing contest you wish to have. But the competition records don't change, they will still be there going back to 1897.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

You've missed the point again, the Bulldogs changed their name but didn't change anything about their team. Are you suggesting that likewise nothing changed about the VFL during the 80s and 90s? That the VFL was always a national comp?

Also the fact that the Bulldogs call themselves 'Western' when there are five other teams more western than them is a bit ridiculous, but I digress ...

They stopped playing home games at Whitten Oval and moved to Docklands.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I think you'll find that after 30 years of non-Vic participation in the VFL/AFL that supporters outside Victoria tire of Victorians acting like the VFL was always the national competition. Like I said, the argument will never ever be resolved.

I don't care for the AFL backdating records to 1870 because I don't think it achieves anything. North won 6 VFA flags before they joined the VFL, all of them parallel to the VFL running. Do they count or not count? The AFL as the self appointed keepers of the code have failed for many years and I expect that to continue. Backdate the records to 1858 for all I care. Swan Districts have won 8 AFL flags, 60 of them between 1961 and 1984. Does anyone in Victoria care? Didn't think so. That's pretty much how we think of Carlton winning the VFL flag in 1947.

Your SANFL point highlights why people get the irrits with Victorians. You are singularly focused on the name change aspect and don't want to acknowledge why the name change took place. The usual response is 'yeah but Brisbane and West Coast joined before the name change so there'. Cool.

If you want to play the name change game Newcastle United won the First Division in 1927 and in 1993. The first made them top of the pile, the second won them promotion to the Premier League. Not really the same is it? The records officially say Second Division 1893-1992, First Division 1992-2004, Championship 2004-. Kind of like how the VFA is now called the VFL and is the state league of Victoria, as the original VFL was until say the the early 90s...

But we are still playing in the exact same competition. Expansion has included teams from interstate, and the league changed its name. But it's the same league with a direct linear descent from 1897 to the present day.

Whether people care about flags won in the Edwardian era is irrelevant. They were won in this competition and are counted in the official records of this competition.

I'm not one to try and argue the VFL was always the premier competition. Frankly I don't care and any argument is pointless as it is completely subjective. I agree the AFL should do more to acknowledge the history of the sport, particularly the SA and WA comps. But trying to rewrite history either by excluding historical records or alternatively trying to include additional records from a separate competition is stupid

 

[Pedro59]

You can do whatever you want for any pissing contest you wish to have. But the competition records don't change, they will still be there going back to 1897.

No one wants to take your comp records off of you ...as long as they are simply delineated as not national titles.
I reckon the AFL will also count them ( as they should be counted ) as AFL/VFL or AFL/VFA or whatever

In this case everybody understands the / really means a big fat asterisk * by the flag for that year.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

But did they change from a one state only comp with no interstate competition whatsoever to a National Comp???

Irrelevant.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

No one wants to take your comp records off of you ...as long as they are simply delineated as not national titles.
I reckon the AFL will also count them ( as they should be counted ) as AFL/VFL or AFL/VFA or whatever

In this case everybody understands the / really means a big fat asterisk * by the flag for that year.

Doesn't matter what you call them. They are still premierships won in this competition and the records stand from 1897 to the present day. That means the official premiership tally is

16 Essendon Carlton
15 Collingwood
13 Hawthorn
12 Melbourne
11 Richmond

Etc

 

[Interstater]

AFL premierships are those awarded from 1987.

Salary cap introduced in 1987.
National draft introduced in late 1986.
Brisbane and West Coast introduced in 1987.

No other year has as much justification.

AFL Premiership count

Hawthorn 7
West Coast 4
Brisbane 3
Geelong 3
Adelaide 2
Carlton 2
Collingwood 2
Essendon 2
North 2
Sydney 2
Bulldogs 1
Port 1
Richmond 1

 

[Pedro59]

AFL premierships are those awarded from 1987.

Salary cap introduced in 1987.
National draft introduced in late 1986.
Brisbane and West Coast introduced in 1987.

No other year has as much justification.

AFL Premiership count

Hawthorn 7
West Coast 4
Brisbane 3
Geelong 3
Adelaide 2
Carlton 2
Collingwood 2
Essendon 2
North 2
Sydney 2
Bulldogs 1
Port 1
Richmond 1

You don't hear many Hawks fans ( nor Cats ) whining and trying to cling on to a 1902 state title as a national title

 

[Carringbush2010]

Its not the same league

The AFL was founded from an old state only comp called the VFL

I am sure the successful Hawks and Cats fans for eg don’t see the need to expand their national titles by assuming old state titles were national level comps titles in 1902 or similar.

Others may cling on to old state titles being national tiles for envy or embarrassment reasons.

Gripping tightly I see! The AFL would not agree with you - whether or not you moot that is irrelevant ......... the AFL is the product you pay a gate receipt and contribute tv ratings to.

Enjoy the torment!

 

[Carringbush2010]

The AFL is set to invest a six-figure sum on the rebranding of the league’s logo, according to The Herald Sun.
A group of designers have begun brainstorming ideas to freshen up the logo that has been ever present since the turn of the century.



Thought I'd save them some money
View attachment 687630

You've got a worthy winner there! Couldn't be more appropriate too! Send it to Gil now!

 

[Thatsmyname]

VFA premierships decided by the journalists of the day, spare me

 

[noodle]

“ He also suggests that the competition starting date should be 1870, which would mean the AFL celebrates its 150th year next year.”

You know Gil will be hard for this. There are some big egos in play here.

 

[noodle]

I find myself agreeing with Port and Hawthorn supporters. This thread makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

No they don't.

England has football champions going back to 1888. But the list of EPL winners only goes back to 1992, because thats when the EPL was created.

Liverpool has is not listed in the teams that have won the EPL Premiership, despite the fact that they have won 18 titles in England. They don't pretend that things won before the EPL are EPL titles.

It even specifies Manchester United's 13 triumphs, not the 20 times that they've finished on top of the ladder in England's top flight football.

For all intents and purposes, what happened with the Premier League in 1992 is identical to what happened with the VFL in 1897.

The clubs resigned from the Football League / VFA and formed a new league.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

AFL premierships are those awarded from 1987.

Salary cap introduced in 1987.
National draft introduced in late 1986.
Brisbane and West Coast introduced in 1987.

No other year has as much justification.

AFL Premiership count

Hawthorn 7
West Coast 4
Brisbane 3
Geelong 3
Adelaide 2
Carlton 2
Collingwood 2
Essendon 2
North 2
Sydney 2
Bulldogs 1
Port 1
Richmond 1

87 was a VFL premiership. As was 88 and 89.

The league awarded the VFL premiership until 1989 and the AFL premiership from 1990 onwards.

They changed the name. That’s it. It’s just a name change.

 

[bh90210fan]

87 was a VFL premiership. As was 88 and 89.

The league awarded the VFL premiership until 1989 and the AFL premiership from 1990 onwards.

They changed the name. That’s it. It’s just a name change.

Why did they change the name?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'd imagine something like this would come up in the charter therefore would it not be only possible on the vote of all 18 clubs (hazard a guess it's 3/4 majority to pass) and then the league would have to vote for it also?

If that is the case and I presume it would be then I don't imagine this idea would get up. Like passing something through the senate, usually good ideas get outvoted by the house and the bad ideas get in................... oh s***!

 

[Carringbush2010]

Just a thought, though many will get their nose out of joint on this because it won't favour their club but................................ I've put together how long clubs have been in the VFL/AFL comp and averaged out their years between flags and GF appearances and then combined the rank to come up with an overall.

I've added GF's to boost the new teams post the 12 vic team era, can't just use flags because that wouldn't be a true reflection given their short history.

And I'll get in before the salties, no my team doesn't end on top.

I can't add VFA flags and GF's because it was running as a separate league at the same time as the VFL/AFL

 

[Bostonian]

No they don't.

England has football champions going back to 1888. But the list of EPL winners only goes back to 1992, because thats when the EPL was created.

Liverpool has is not listed in the teams that have won the EPL Premiership, despite the fact that they have won 18 titles in England. They don't pretend that things won before the EPL are EPL titles.

It even specifies Manchester United's 13 triumphs, not the 20 times that they've finished on top of the ladder in England's top flight football.

EPL title = English Champions

Same s**t different name.