The Law Gay Couples Vs Christian bakers

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Tayl0r said:
Since drawing lines of worth or value has never proven to be a good thing in regards to the lives of humans, I don't think any line should be drawn.
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But they are being drawn...

I quoted you pointing out that they have a bad history of drawing lines.

So why when it comes to discriminating against sexual orientation, gender, or race, do you not want the state removing the lines?
 

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CM86 said:
But they are being drawn...

I quoted you pointing out that they have a bad history of drawing lines.

So why when it comes to discriminating against sexual orientation, gender, or race, do you not want the state removing the lines?
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I do want them to remove the line, I don't think the state needs to be telling people how to interact with each other unless it's to protect their lives or property or freedom.

I don't think your freedom to desire my services trumps my freedom to sell those services to whomever I wish.

The results of who I do and don't sell to will determine the success of my mythical business.

If a store owner doesn't want to produce a product for someone on religious grounds then so be it, that becomes public knowledge and the community can reward or punish that position with their spending but nobody should be forced to be party to something they don't agree with.

There doesn't need to be some punishment handed down by the state.
 
Gough said:
I've said many times that I fully support these people's rights. A sign on the door of the premises stating that they refuse to serve gay patrons should avoid confusion for all but it would also force the bigots to take ownership of their prejudice, something they are reluctant to do if they see it as costing them money.
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Gay people’s money is worth just as much as straight people. Even more if you quote a premium price.
 
Tayl0r said:
I do want them to remove the line, I don't think the state needs to be telling people how to interact with each other unless it's to protect their lives or property or freedom.

I don't think your freedom to desire my services trumps my freedom to sell those services to whomever I wish.

The results of who I do and don't sell to will determine the success of my mythical business.

If a store owner doesn't want to produce a product for someone on religious grounds then so be it, that becomes public knowledge and the community can reward or punish that position with their spending but nobody should be forced to be party to something they don't agree with.

There doesn't need to be some punishment handed down by the state.
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Given that the homosexual community forms a small minority of the population, having a discriminatory policy towards them likely won't result in a significant cost to any business without government endorsed penalties.

Our government is given the responsibility of leadership over the entire nation with the duty of ensuring equality for all religious, racial, and sexual identity groups.

I can't see how allowing a more populous group to use pure weight of numbers to discriminate against lesser groups would benefit the nation.
 
Tayl0r said:
The human race has a bad history with declaring human lives lesser than others
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Tayl0r said:
I do want them to remove the line, I don't think the state needs to be telling people how to interact with each other unless it's to protect their lives or property or freedom.
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Why don't you think the state needs to be involved, if you also think "The human race has a bad history with declaring human lives lesser than others"?

Tayl0r said:
I don't think your freedom to desire my services trumps my freedom to sell those services to whomever I wish.
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The state needs to say, 'if you want to provide services in our society, you need to be inclusive of our society'.
You can't refuse service to a black man, because he is black. You can't provide a lesser service to a black man, because you consider him a lesser life.

That's something the state had to push onto "the human race" with the "bad history".

Tayl0r said:
The results of who I do and don't sell to will determine the success of my mythical business.

If a store owner doesn't want to produce a product for someone on religious grounds then so be it, that becomes public knowledge and the community can reward or punish that position with their spending but nobody should be forced to be party to something they don't agree with.
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Well, in 2012 MasterCakes refused to make a cake based on religious grounds.
I've not seen any evidence that the refusal has harmed the success of the business. In fact it's received support from all around the world.

In 2018 MasterCakes refused to bake a gender transition cake (blue on the outside and pink on the inside).



As Evolved1 said, the state has the responsibility to provide leadership. They need to show that discrimination against minorities is not something our society accepts. Regardless of Christian or Islamic faith.
'Fighting back against homosexuals' is a backwards ideology, that's exacerbated by the support for stances made by MasterCakes, Folau, and powerful religious groups.
 
Lebbo73 said:
Gay people’s money is worth just as much as straight people. Even more if you quote a premium price.
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If you want to discriminate against a certain section of the population just put a sign up say you won't serve them. Surely someone who is proud of their convictions would be willing to do that? Then we let Mr. Smith's invisible hand work it's magic.
 
Gough said:
If you want to discriminate against a certain section of the population just put a sign up say you won't serve them. Surely someone who is proud of their convictions would be willing to do that? Then we let Mr. Smith's invisible hand work it's magic.
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I’m a capitalist Gough. Why would I refuse to serve you? Your money is as good as mine, especially when it is in my pocket! :)
 
Gough said:
I've said many times that I fully support these people's rights. A sign on the door of the premises stating that they refuse to serve gay patrons should avoid confusion for all but it would also force the bigots to take ownership of their prejudice, something they are reluctant to do if they see it as costing them money.
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And it's been pointed out to you many times that they don't refuse to serve gay people. They will serve them bread and donuts etc. They refused to make a particular product.
 

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Gough said:
No worries. They can just put up a sign detailing which of their services they wish deny to people.
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Why should they be forced to do this? I wouldn't want my business being targeted by anti-religious nutters in a harmful and violent manner just as I am sure you wouldn't want gay orientated businesses being targeted by anti gay nutters in the same manner.
 
Father Jack said:
I'm surprised that so many segregationists not only exist, but are happy to out themselves as if it's some kind of virtue
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Do you think the same way about those who support places like gay bars from being able to discriminate against supposedly heterosexual men?
 
TimmeT said:
Why should they be forced to do this? I wouldn't want my business being targeted by anti-religious nutters in a harmful and violent manner just as I am sure you wouldn't want gay orientated businesses being targeted by anti gay nutters in the same manner.
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Plenty of gay business' show rainbow flags without that being a problem, I'd happily accept any business that refused me certain services, I just wouldn't shop there. If they're so proud and committed to their views I don’t see why this would be a problem.
 
Gough said:
Plenty of gay business' show rainbow flags without that being a problem, I'd happily accept any business that refused me certain services, I just wouldn't shop there. If they're so proud and committed to their views I don’t see why this would be a problem.
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That's a completely different argument and not the same at all. Plenty of non gay businesses who support gays or are welcoming to gays also display them. Secondly the gay businesses who display them don't automatically refuse service to certain classes of society based on a characteristic. Thus this point is a red herring.
 
TimmeT said:
Why should they be forced to do this? I wouldn't want my business being targeted by anti-religious nutters in a harmful and violent manner just as I am sure you wouldn't want gay orientated businesses being targeted by anti gay nutters in the same manner.
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Who are these "anti-religious nutters" you speak of?

Jesus!
 
Father Jack said:
It would be nice if that didn't have to happen
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Just like it would be nice if people weren't getting harassed and attacked by gay people who don't want to respect their beliefs and were looking to make a point.
 
CM86 said:
Why don't you think the state needs to be involved, if you also think "The human race has a bad history with declaring human lives lesser than others"?
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I think people interacting with people is far different that a group interacting with another group. I think a business person can decide for themselves if they want to deal with a customer.

I have more faith in the general population evidently. I don't see minority groups being marginalised.

In these sorts of cases where someone has approached a business and then became offended when they didn't receive it, most of the ones I know about have been someone looking for the offense - because they had offers to provide the service but passed over those to keep looking for someone who said no that they could then turn the mob onto.

That's what that bakery has done well since, people see this for what it is.

Next step is people being taken to court for hate speech over using the wrong pronoun.
 
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