Toast Round 6 = Collingwood 59-27 Hawthorn

[Robroy22]

Yes better than Daics because he wasn't confined to Daics headspace - don't get me wrong Daics was the better all round player but we're not discussing that.
As for Tully even I'm not old enough to remember him - although at times I feel like Methuselah lol.
Buckley was the die from which the modern player is cast - immensely dedicated athlete, obsessive perfectionism and IMHO the best kick the game has seen.

Huh?

 

[jonmacTrag]

Huh?

I watched Daics from his first game as perhaps you did.
Daics was always one to beat his opponent mentally, he was always a step ahead with his read on the play. He had every trick in the book and then invented a score of others to rewrite it.
Bucks was the obsessed perfectionist who crafted his body and mechanical actions to heights unseen before. He also carried the team on his back for years and it never ever affected his performances. It didn't matter how much physical pressure or negative tactics were used against him, it didn't matter how much he was personally required to do to get the team over the line he was always up for it.
And all that pressure never ever affected his execution.
Daics was the magician who always was a couple of steps in the clear and so could execute his dazzling magic for us all.
Buckley had to fight his way through the mud and blood to execute but never disappointed.
Vastly different players.
Daicos the master magician.
Buckley the supreme on field leader by example.
I adored Daics as a young man as all of us older guys did.
But as a mature man Buckley gave me hope in dire times for the club.
Take your pick.

 

[TradeDraft]

Imagine if we picked Darcy for the GF and his body held up. Bloody what ifs

We would of won the Flag quite Easily

 

[Kappa]

I'm calling it. Clarkson has failed at moneyball that the Hawks have historically been so successful at in prior years.

They have too many overpaid recruits from other clubs . A lot of them are not capable performing to the standard required of a top four club. Some of them are one dimensional, some are inoffensive possession accumulators, some have chronic injury, and some are flaky. Not naming names (fill in the blanks yourself) but just look at the number of "recruits"in last nights side. The number of list spots they have spent on these good ordinary players has seriously reduced their capacity to build from the ground up via youth development.

I see hard times coming up for Hawthorn.

Chad Wingard was the big failure... most of their other recruits came cheap (Eg Patton).

They paid big money for Wingard and he's been shit since

 

[loki04]

The reduced time of each quarter not only provides less time in which to score, but it also makes it easier for teams to maintain defensive structures for longer.

In short, the game is less 'open' for a greater proportion of the game, as well as less time overall.

Whats your excuse for last year then?

Ave 83 points over 24 games, with both finals games kicking only 61 and 52 points respectively.

And 2018 finals we kick 70 vs WC, 69 vs GWS, 90 vs Rich and then 74 vs WC in GF.

Low scoring has been going on a while now, sure limited timed quarters dont help but its not the root cause.

 

[JB1975]

Whats your excuse for last year then?

Ave 83 points over 24 games, with both finals games kicking only 61 and 52 points respectively.

And 2018 finals we kick 70 vs WC, 69 vs GWS, 90 vs Rich and then 74 vs WC in GF.

Low scoring has been going on a while now, sure limited timed quarters dont help but its not the root cause.

I was just pointing out a factor, not suggesting we're an offensive powerhouse.

 

[ClaytonM]

Whats your excuse for last year then?

Ave 83 points over 24 games, with both finals games kicking only 61 and 52 points respectively.

And 2018 finals we kick 70 vs WC, 69 vs GWS, 90 vs Rich and then 74 vs WC in GF.

Low scoring has been going on a while now, sure limited timed quarters dont help but its not the root cause.

So you’re saying our system in general is working. A GF and Prelim in successive years. Don’t think it is the system letting us down, just execution and lack of a quality KPP.

 

[barrackers]

Chad Wingard was the big failure... most of their other recruits came cheap (Eg Patton).

They paid big money for Wingard and he's been sh*t since

It depends on how you define cheap. In terms of draft picks Patton was cheap, but they also took on his hefty contract.

It shouldn’t have been our problem, but BL wanted they did for Beams as his contract had been front loaded.

 

[loki04]

If you must bring up 2018 I could simply say with Moore we are now an even stronger defensive that which will make iteven more difficult to be scored against. Defence wins Finals not offense according to the experts.

You need both cant just be a one trick pony and an ugly trick at that.
Our attacking system and ability is miles off our defensive game.

The best teams are tight defensive units but equally good attacking teams. Teams who are uber defensive with little fire power pinch flags if they meet the right opponent.

Our defense would still be very good even if we changed our offensive ball movement and had better fwd structures ahead of the ball. No need to do our slow crabbing chip shit for 3 entire quarters either.

 

[loki04]

So you’re saying our system in general is working. A GF and Prelim in successive years. Don’t think it is the system letting us down, just execution and lack of a quality KPP.

Im saying it works in part but equally has a bad flaw offensively.

The way we play leaves the door open for the opposition. Gives them belief, many games over 2 years is evidence of it.
Blitz for a quarter then play circle work while protecting the lead.

 

[loki04]

How many of the other teams have scored 100 points this season? Not looking good for any team it would seem going by your analysis.

See my post to JB.

Its not just this years issue.

 

[Ocram69]

See my post to JB.

Its not just this years issue.

As long as we score more points than the team we are playing who effing cares?

 

[loki04]

To the Hawks credit, they're weren't stupid enough to trade Beams for pick 18.

Beams trade was : 2018 pick 18 + 56 and 2019 pick 16.

 

[loki04]

As long as we score more points than the team we are playing who effing cares?

I care because it leaves the truckin door open for teams to come back and beat us...

Not to mention its a flipping snorefest after quarter time.

 

[loki04]

who are the teams we need to get better than to contend?

Its a year where 6 to 8 teams could win it. Us being 1 of them.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[JOELY]

Beams trade was : 2018 pick 18 + 56 and 2019 pick 16.

We got a couple of third rounders back too, but still shit.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Chad Wingard was the big failure... most of their other recruits came cheap (Eg Patton).

They paid big money for Wingard and he's been sh*t since

I reckon OMeara and Scully dont do a lot of damage either.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Beams trade was : 2018 pick 18 + 56 and 2019 pick 16.

Pick 18 that we would have used on Quaynor anyway.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Great clip.

I'm guessing Roughy's wife is doing the filming?

 

[ClaytonM]

Pick 18 that we would have used on Quaynor anyway.

Yes but we could have used pick 18 on a lot better. It was always stupid to give up 2 teen picks for Beams at his age, even if he was still producing for us. Now he has virtually retired it is criminal. Claiming it would have been used on IQ is a poor argument.

 

[Chameleon75]

My recollections on Buckley's kicking is this: he's the best long drop punt I have ever seen. There are so many examples, a win at the G against Geelong in 1995 I think (not the Ablett non-mark or the pinching game): We had them on the ropes but were still just under a goal down, kicking with swirling wind to the punt road end. Paul Williams and Gary Pert both got on the end of passes on the southern flank and missed: I don't need to tell you Williams was a very hard long accurate kick (regularly kicked bombs from outside 50), and Pert if anything a more accurate straight kick. Both missed narrowly, then Bucks had a shot from the same area,further out and slotted it. It was almost like a ranking event.with Bucks coming out on top.

He kicked drop punts from 60 metres out, and his long passes were like lightning bolts.

That said his bananas were merely above average, and his torps were not like Tony Rocca's, I'd say a little sloppy almost by comparison (they were very rare, I think I saw one at Docklands and it drew a roar that turned confused because it wasn;t very good in the end).

I think there's a case to be made for calling Buckley the best long drop punt ever. Best kick? I don't think so. Tony Lockett won a goal kicking test against Dunstall and Daicos once, a silly TV event but a reasonable test nevertheless. He could punt, torp, banana, grub, I bet he could drop kick (but I never saw it) and his short and long passing (rarely used) was as impressive as his kicking for goal, made Loewe look better than he was.

Having mentioned Daicos, the Macedonian Marvel could execute kicks no one ever thought of before, eg the grubbed banana so many players use these days. Daicos and Didak, had short passing better than Bucks and a wider repertoire. Surprisingly Shane Morwood was a brilliant kick, a regular for the kick in and wonderfully deft for the little loft or dab to pick out a team mate in just a spare metre. Tony Rocca was a better torp. Sav Rocca was only one level below Bucks as along drop punt: in 1995 his flat searing kicks clocked up 96 or so goals often from outside or right on 50.

I can think of easily a dozen players whose overall kicking ability matches or exceeds Bucks. Lockett, Daicos, Paul Couch (yes he was usually an ugly shanker but he could not be stopped from finding a team mate and thats what matters), Darren Jarman, Akermanis (as itrritating as he was he was a brilliant passer, snapper, dabber, goal kicker and lofter on both feet).

Buckley was an almost unbelievably consistent professional and his kicking was polished to a high sheen. My feeling is his kicking suffered after his leg injuries (was it an ankle?) and a series of hammies after 2000: did not stop him from being number 1 still, just by a lower margin IMHO. In the period 1996-1999 he was a terrifying thunderbolt of a kick and even when he began to fade he was still the best drop punt in the league.

Interesting you mentioned sav there, I remember seeing him play ruck at Vic Park, gathered the ball on Center wing and deliver a low 60m pass hitting I think houlihan on the chest. Low trajectory so it go there quick, but well weighted enough so it wasn’t too hard to mark. One of the best passes I’ve seen. We never saw much of it because he played so deep, but sav was a pretty decent field kick.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes but we could have used pick 18 on a lot better. It was always stupid to give up 2 teen picks for Beams at his age, even if he was still producing for us. Now he has virtually retired it is criminal. Claiming it would have been used on IQ is a poor argument.

Its ancient history now and nothing to do with the thread topic or my comments about how I think the Hawrhorn list is on the slide.

But we got Quaynor regardless. Trading pick 18 didnt cost us anything more than points. That mitigates the Beams disaster considerably.

 

[Kappa]

We've missed explosive pace off the halfback line badly ever since 2010.

Can't believe Quaynor wasn't playing earlier, especially with Noble struggling.