Coach Chris Scott re-signs to 2022 (aka the Chris Scott discussion Part IV)

[Art Vandelay_]

I just want us to stop falling in a heap come finals, so we can actually win the damn thing. It’s embarrassing how you can almost set your watch to our eventual finals failure.

You won’t hear a told ya so from me. I just want to win one, to shove it up the opposition haters who expect us to fail again.

Is it really? I don’t think that is the reality.

internally at club land there’d be a dozen or more clubs envious of what we’ve done since 2011 and would love to have done the same. Ending the year at the PF stage isn’t this grand failure people make it out to be, it is a better year than 14 other clubs. It’s falling just short, and the thing about this club that sets us apart is we don’t have a rebuild mindset, we go 100% for winning games and playing finals, and our record since John Devine was coach speaks for itself.

The problem with this board, and in particular this thread is there is an excluded middle fallacy. He’s either a genius infallible coach to Some or he should be sacked. There is no visible middle ground.

Falling just short is disappointing, but isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. Bloody hard to beat the house, and we’re defying a system designed to bring us down.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Yep, the on-going 'over achieving' but failing to make anything of it is getting a bit tiresome, and it only fuels the argument for others who say 'big deal, all that *cough.....'over achieving'......cough* and absolutely nothing to show for it. Who's gonna care? '

I do, and I want to shut them up.

Problem is we get the overachieving thing forced down our throat and are meant to believe it. What proof is there that our players are crap?
They look f**king good during the year.
It's all subjective but accepted as truth.
Noone (except Dubs) says we are overachieving when we are smashing it during the year.
We're awesome and not given enough credit, Richmond or whoever it is are massively overrated with one good player (Who is overrated anyway)

 

[Spazz Cat]

Is it really? I don’t think that is the reality.

internally at club land there’d be a dozen or more clubs envious of what we’ve done since 2011 and would love to have done the same. Ending the year at the PF stage isn’t this grand failure people make it out to be, it is a better year than 14 other clubs. It’s falling just short, and the thing about this club that sets us apart is we don’t have a rebuild mindset, we go 100% for winning games and playing finals, and our record since John Devine was coach speaks for itself.

The problem with this board, and in particular this thread is there is an excluded middle fallacy. He’s either a genius infallible coach to Some or he should be sacked. There is no visible middle ground.

Falling just short is disappointing, but isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. Bloody hard to beat the house, and we’re defying a system designed to bring us down.

There is middle(ish)ground from mostly all except 2 or 3 people.
But when making a point everyone just chooses to make it against those few extremes.
But that's why this thread is so fun.
To your point since Devine, firstly we had zones for ages, no such thing as rebuilding. As in there was no compensation for finishing lower.
After that the only time we've only actually been truly successful was when we did rebuild.
That's a fact, I know it'll piss everyone off but that is what's happened, like it or not.

 

[Cataholic]

Is it really? I don’t think that is the reality.

internally at club land there’d be a dozen or more clubs envious of what we’ve done since 2011 and would love to have done the same. Ending the year at the PF stage isn’t this grand failure people make it out to be, it is a better year than 14 other clubs. It’s falling just short, and the thing about this club that sets us apart is we don’t have a rebuild mindset, we go 100% for winning games and playing finals, and our record since John Devine was coach speaks for itself.

The problem with this board, and in particular this thread is there is an excluded middle fallacy. He’s either a genius infallible coach to Some or he should be sacked. There is no visible middle ground.

Falling just short is disappointing, but isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. Bloody hard to beat the house, and we’re defying a system designed to bring us down.

You make some good points, but also have to remember that a person's perception is their reality.

I can see good points from both POV's on this, and have to agree with Down at K Park that our finals record has been very frustrating, but concede we do well to keep getting there.

 

[Down at K Park]

Is it really? I don’t think that is the reality.

internally at club land there’d be a dozen or more clubs envious of what we’ve done since 2011 and would love to have done the same. Ending the year at the PF stage isn’t this grand failure people make it out to be, it is a better year than 14 other clubs. It’s falling just short, and the thing about this club that sets us apart is we don’t have a rebuild mindset, we go 100% for winning games and playing finals, and our record since John Devine was coach speaks for itself.

The problem with this board, and in particular this thread is there is an excluded middle fallacy. He’s either a genius infallible coach to Some or he should be sacked. There is no visible middle ground.

Falling just short is disappointing, but isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. Bloody hard to beat the house, and we’re defying a system designed to bring us down.

The old “other clubs would be envious” line.

I don’t gaf about what the loser clubs think. I want to be a winning club. Not a close enough is good enough club. That’s a loser mentality.

Our 2007-11 club wouldn’t accept that mentality. Losing 2008 just drove us harder to win it in 2009. There was no acceptance of close enough is good enough. Winner mentality.

Yes we won’t be up forever, that’s why we need to take our chances now. Not spend the following years asking what if.

 

[MacStradbroke]

Problem is we get the overachieving thing forced down our throat and are meant to believe it. What proof is there that our players are crap.
They look f**king good during the year.
It's all subjective but accepted as truth.
Noone (except Dubs) says we are overachieving when we are smashing it during the year.
We're awesome and not given enough credit, Richmond or whoever it is are massively overrated with one good player (Who is overrated anyway)

Overachieving forced down ya throat, by who? Big a footy posters? Serious isn’t this just an engine to find out info and vent between us cats supporters? I’ve never heard an opposition say it.

Also, I agree totally with you re Richmond. Take Dusty out and they are a completely different team.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

The old “other clubs would be envious” line.

I don’t gaf about what the loser clubs think. I want to be a winning club. Not a close enough is good enough club. That’s a loser mentality.

Our 2007-11 club wouldn’t accept that mentality. Losing 2008 just drove us harder to win it in 2009. There was no acceptance of close enough is good enough. Winner mentality.

Yes we won’t be up forever, that’s why we need to take our chances now. Not spend the following years asking what if.

That’s your own false assumption that ‘close enough is good enough’. Absolutely no evidence to suggest the club is content with just missing out. Every year they do they go out and recruit pieces they think can push us over the top.

If we were thinking long term and “rebuild” then Jenkins and Steven wouldn’t be here. They are so that this year we hopefully go a little further.

“what if” is something that people with regrets ask themselves, something that gets asked if you could-have-done-more. Well the GFC keeps trying to do more, they tweak their list every year for nearly a decade trying to find the mix that gets us there.

I can’t fault the effort and endeavour, they’ve trued their guts out on and off the field to defy draft gravity and get us there, have had PF setbacks but not thrown in the towel and given up but trued and tried again.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Overachieving forced down ya throat, by who? Big a footy posters? Serious isn’t this just an engine to find out info and vent between us cats supporters? I’ve never heard an opposition say it.

Also, I agree totally with you re Richmond. Take Dusty out and they are a completely different team.

No the club says it every year after we bow out.
The oppo players thing is from fans in general, and Big Footy heaps.
Not just us, the whole footy thing is toxic these days. Every good player is s**t or overrated or dirty or a squib or can't kick or is selfish etc,etc,etc
Unless they play for your team. Until they leave.

 

[Cataholic]

Problem is we get the overachieving thing forced down our throat and are meant to believe it. What proof is there that our players are crap?
They look f**king good during the year.
It's all subjective but accepted as truth.
Noone (except Dubs) says we are overachieving when we are smashing it during the year.
We're awesome and not given enough credit, Richmond or whoever it is are massively overrated with one good player (Who is overrated anyway)

I think the theory that we have been 'over achieving' has arisen from the belief that our ruck isn't competitive with the best teams, our collective group doesn't have the leg speed and skills to match the best, and we've been reaching finals dwspite players like Guthrie and Menegola playing B+ footy.

That would then suggest that we have played the regular season in top gear, whilst the others have been in 4th. Come finals they've gone up another gear and we haven't been able to match them.

This year is interesting. Players like Guthrie and Menegola have suddenly made a marked improvement, we're playing with less hesitation, and we've found some decent talent in guys like Fogarty and Close.

Not sure a finals failure in 2020 could be dismissed as an 'over achievement'. From here we should be a heavyweight contender.

 

[Spazz Cat]

I think the theory that we have been 'over achieving' has arisen from the belief that our ruck isn't competitive with the best teams, our collective group doesn't have the leg speed and skills to match the best, and we've been reaching finals dwspite players like Guthrie and Menegola playing B+ footy.

That would then suggest that we have played the regular season in top gear, whilst the others have been in 4th. Come finals they've gone up another gear and we haven't been able to match them.

This year is interesting. Players like Guthrie and Menegola have suddenly made a marked improvement, we're playing with less hesitation, and we've found some decent talent in guys like Fogarty and Close.

Not sure a finals failure in 2020 could be dismissed as an 'over achievement'. From here we should be a heavyweight contender.

But the club comes out every year to say what an amazing achievement is to be there again when we shouldn't.
Why? You chose the strategy and the path we're now on.
Did you actually think it would fail?
As far as rucks, you just gotta play one.
The last bunch of premiership teams haven't had a good one. Means bugger all.

 

[Down at K Park]

That’s your own false assumption that ‘close enough is good enough’. Absolutely no evidence to suggest the club is content with just missing out. Every year they do they go out and recruit pieces they think can push us over the top.

If we were thinking long term and “rebuild” then Jenkins and Steven wouldn’t be here. They are so that this year we hopefully go a little further.

“what if” is something that people with regrets ask themselves, something that gets asked if you could-have-done-more. Well the GFC keeps trying to do more, they tweak their list every year for nearly a decade trying to find the mix that gets us there.

I can’t fault the effort and endeavour, they’ve trued their guts out on and off the field to defy draft gravity and get us there, have had PF setbacks but not thrown in the towel and given up but trued and tried again.

The usual suspects here sprout it though. Talking about how wonderful it is to keep making the finals. The club does too.

 

[Drunkcat]

We fall short all the time in finals because we can not get 22 players to do their bit, always too many that do nothing can not win with 15 players

 

[Down at K Park]

We fall short all the time in finals because we can not get 22 players to do their bit, always too many that do nothing can not win with 15 players

That is true. We have carried a few passengers who simply have provided us nothing. Hoping this year can be different, cause we have a few more extra players who have stepped up.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I get the feeling some our supporters are genuinely hoping we lose so they can jump on their iPads to say to everyone ‘told ya so’. Pretty sad.

Literally. There are just people who are negative... Its no different when they support a side.

Its a bit of attention seeking as well.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I get the feeling some our supporters are genuinely hoping we lose so they can jump on their iPads to say to everyone ‘told ya so’. Pretty sad.

Quote again.

You will also notice another hypocritical thing.

When we win, AFL season games are ireelevant and dont matter only finals do.

When we lose, its entirely relevant and the apocalypse is near.

If you pay attention, the hyporiticalness of the posting is embarrasingly laughable

 

[Biggy_Boy]

So if Brisbane finish on top of the ladder this year and don’t make the GF, they were never REALLY contending? You’ve lost the plot.

I feel like too often in this thread we get caught up in how the meaning of words differs from person to person depending on perspective without it having any real bearing or point. My point is not that Geelong goes through the H&A/finals without any prospect of winning a flag; in fact, I think that has been more the case than apparently many on here. What I mean by contend in this context, clearly, is being able to play in the game where the flag is actually on the line, and Geelong has never done that. If finals performances are expected to be so poor that you never make the GF, what really is the point in being there? If the team of players is simply not up to it, and I'm not saying they aren't but some are as a guise for broader failings, then being a punching bag for others in finals doesn't appear to have a lot of value.

If Brisbane finish top 2 this year and don't make the GF, then like Geelong they're wasting chances. That's two in a row for them, so no GF apearance, no chance to contend, would be a poor return. Not as bad as 0 from 4 or perhaps 0 from 5, which is what Geelong is staring down should they make top 2 this year. Brisbane is a younger with more upside, however, not that that guarantees they'll be able to stay up long-term. All teams need to strike while the iron is hot. I would consider consecutive top 2 finishes to be that time, Geelong no exception.

 

[Drunkcat]

You can look at this so many ways both ways are right, but a year like Hawthorn this year is the way to do it bottom right out for one year get a top 5 pick is what we should have done for 1 year

 

[Biggy_Boy]

we’re defying a system designed to bring us down.

Like the FA system which was brought in just as we were falling off, allowing us to bring in a number of ready-made players to fill holes? Yeah, big conspiracy to bring us down. Especially right after our worst season under Scott when the threat of FA allowed us to bring in the best player in the comp. Would we have been able to defy the system if Dangerfield hadn't wanted or been able to come to us, or if our natural decline didn't coincide with the rise of a more liberal approach to player movement in the off-season?

 

[PhatBoy]

You can look at this so many ways both ways are right, but a year like Hawthorn this year is the way to do it bottom right out for one year get a top 5 pick is what we should have done for 1 year

do you really think Hawthorn will be contending again purely based on one high pick this year?

 

[Drunkcat]

do you really think Hawthorn will be contending again purely based on one high pick this year?

A good pick couple of trade ins and who knows...and my point was if you don't make the finals have a bad year

 

[Biggy_Boy]

A good pick couple of trade ins and who knows

Still have a few quality players who have plenty of time in the game left. But they also have a whole lot of gaps in key areas to fill that are currently occupied by old players who will soon be gone or kids who might not be up to it. I'd back them to do well out of a couple of drafts and trade periods, however. If they retain Clarkson, then they'll have a pretty clear and focused direction in regards to which type of talent to bring in, and it's not like he requires a side brimming with the best talent. He'll get them playing as a team with enough work, and he'll quickly weed out those not up to his standards.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Quote again.

You will also notice another hypocritical thing.

When we win, AFL season games are ireelevant and dont matter only finals do.

When we lose, its entirely relevant and the apocalypse is near.

If you pay attention, the hyporiticalness of the posting is embarrasingly laughable

Not really man. H&A games mean nothing from you guys cause we overachieved and only won them by coaching but in the last month of the year whatever teams we play will be way better.

 

[Spazz Cat]

do you really think Hawthorn will be contending again purely based on one high pick this year?

Gonna be a long road I think. Preety bare in the cupboard.
Mitchell, O'Meara, Sicily, Worpel, Wingard will be shouldering the load for the top picks.
Not great, going to take a little while.

 

[Down at K Park]

Gonna be a long road I think. Preety bare in the cupboard.
Mitchell, O'Meara, Sicily, Worpel, Wingard will be shouldering the load for the top picks.
Not great, going to take a little while.

And sicily will probably not play most of next year with his acl. Wingard is an enigma, mitchell is struggling to come back from that broken leg, and worpel already looks like he has reached his ceiling. Going to be a very, very long road back for them. Basically scorched years of draft picks for a bunch of mediocre players. And traded away the best young player they had in burton.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Not really man. H&A games mean nothing from you guys cause we overachieved and only won them by coaching but in the last month of the year whatever teams we play will be way better.

Hawthorn has just gone and recruited as many top up senior free agents as geelong has id say even better quality prime aged ones to keep a top four side identical to us.

How has it gone for them?? The idea we are only a top side because of mature recruits is quickly put to bed when you look at hawthorn.

It doesnt work like that.

We havent defiee gravity like this and done virtually the impossible without being bloody well coached. It defies reason and logic how we have stayed a top four side.

Only a very good coach could do what he has done