When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Noidnadroj]

I agree. It's mentality not fitness.

There is no need to dig too deep to find out why Carlton are an average team. It’s as simple as this : Ed Curnow is their 3rd best midfielder. I have no idea who their 4th best midfielders is.

I won’t bother naming the midfield of every top-8 team, but Carlton’s midfield is not even in the same ballpark.

This is not to say some youngsters they currently have won’t develop etc… as I know they’ve got a lot of ‘potential’ mids. But right now, running out on the weekend, their midfield group is nowhere near the depth quality of top-8 teams - it’s not even close, so as a result, unless something out of the ordinary happens each weekend they simply cannot beat the good teams.

Until they address this it doesn’t matter if Clarko coaches them with Hardwick and Longmire as his assistants… they are going nowhere.


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[Joao]

There is no need to dig too deep to find out why Carlton are an average team. It’s as simple as this : Ed Curnow is their 3rd best midfielder. I have no idea who their 4th best midfielders is.

I won’t bother naming the midfield of every top-8 team, but Carlton’s midfield is not even in the same ballpark.

This is not to say some youngsters they currently have won’t develop etc… as I know they’ve got a lot of ‘potential’ mids. But right now, running out on the weekend, their midfield group is nowhere near the depth quality of top-8 teams - it’s not even close, so as a result, unless something out of the ordinary happens each weekend they simply cannot beat the good teams.

Until they address this it doesn’t matter if Clarko coaches them with Hardwick and Longmire as his assistants… they are going nowhere.


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I agree midfield is a problem, but it doesn't explain just letting teams do as they please in redtime.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Doesn't matter how fit a player is, if they don't want to run both ways they just won't.

Too many Carlton folk spend too much of their time looking for reasons outside the players themselves for our deficiencies. Basic opinion is that we've put together a list to die for and if we under perform it's because of the coach, development or the fitness guru. More than one chapter in our story IMO.

A list to die for?

 

[hk89]

I don't do stats on posting on Carlton board- but I think it is a stretch to say that the majority are pointing fingers at Russell.

Probably not when you consider the silent majority, but while I didn't actually count, it did seem a majority of those actually posting in the Russell thread were questioning him, but I guess that's the nature of forums, and that those who are happy with him are less likely to be part of the conversation.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I agree midfield is a problem, but it doesn't explain just letting teams do as they please in redtime.

I think it explains it perfectly. If you don’t have a deep midfield the other teams that do are constantly rotating fresh midfielders all quarter in rotation…. Danger, Selwood, Guthrie, Duncan, Parfitt, Narkle, Menegola, Higgins etc …. there’s no respite and any time those players are on the ball they’re fresh. Of course this depth has the greatest impact late in quarters when fatigue is setting in.


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[Joao]

I think it explains it perfectly. If you don’t have a deep midfield the other teams that do are constantly rotating fresh midfielders all quarter in rotation…. Danger, Selwood, Guthrie, Duncan, Parfitt, Narkle, Menegola, Higgins etc …. there’s no respite and any time those players are on the ball they’re fresh. Of course this depth has the greatest impact late in quarters when fatigue is setting in.


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But it's not just the mids.

 

[JustaBattler]

There is no need to dig too deep to find out why Carlton are an average team. It’s as simple as this : Ed Curnow is their 3rd best midfielder. I have no idea who their 4th best midfielders is.

I won’t bother naming the midfield of every top-8 team, but Carlton’s midfield is not even in the same ballpark.

This is not to say some youngsters they currently have won’t develop etc… as I know they’ve got a lot of ‘potential’ mids. But right now, running out on the weekend, their midfield group is nowhere near the depth quality of top-8 teams - it’s not even close, so as a result, unless something out of the ordinary happens each weekend they simply cannot beat the good teams.

Until they address this it doesn’t matter if Clarko coaches them with Hardwick and Longmire as his assistants… they are going nowhere.


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Until Carlton has evened out the capability of midfield rotations it will be battling to match the sides that do have this depth. We have seen this year that an injured Cripps is played and the center bounce set up is rarely changed compared to better teams - so yeah not rocket science to figure that the same layers are doing all the heavy lifting - all the time and it means they get more tired than opponents.

The second issue is lack of equal quality on the outside to better teams. Carlton can win the ball as well if not better than most teams- but midfield play breaks down too easily in transition - again lack of enough quality in the midfield and also points to weaknesses n the game style the CLub is playing - given who they have to draw on to execute eg I doubt wether a player liek Cottrell woudl be a starting player in any other team atm and his position dictates that he is a playmaker or reaching to put Setterfield on a wing - a bloke that is barely faster than Cripps and no better kick.

In this context it is fair to point to disappointment in the lack of progress in certain high picked players who ( in the coach's opinion ) aren't up to it. Carlton is stacked with on-ballers and very light on outside run and A grade kicking ability - using a game plan that relies on both.

Which is why certain 'fixes' aren't impossible to contemplate and implement - the open question being ( obviously) coaching as a group capability.

 

[Soapy V]

Facts are:

- Our injury problems have not one bit improved under Russell
- We struggle to run out quarters, have you seen our red time stats?
- Seriously questionable decisions like letting Curnow do deadlifts, stripping weight off Cripps.

GPS distance is a farce, it's about number of sprinting efforts, HR zone, amongst many other KPI's we wouldn't be privy to.

Your reaction is ridiculously over the top - the club has chosen a full review of the football department which no doubt includes elements of the High Performance Team, who have every right to be questioned at this stage.

How many if our injuries are collision injuries and how many are soft tissue?

 

[chunkylover53]

How many if our injuries are collision injuries and how many are soft tissue?

You can't write off every single non-soft-tissue injury as completely unavoidable and bad luck.

ACL's, ankles, stress fractures, back problems (which we have had plenty of) can definitely be attributed by form, training loads, overuse etc. Our current injurt list is 9 players, 4 of them are soft-tissue, hardly a strong argument.

He completely failed with McGovern. Considering how much we have invested in him, plus all the time in "the cage" Russell spent with him; he was the perfect project to prove his worth, and it's the same as any other year.

Not to mention the fitness levels of Williams and playing players hurt.

 

[doppleganger]

A list to die for?

Yep, Carlton fans only seem to care about what draft pick a player was.

And they have plenty of early draft picks.

 

[Soapy V]

You can't write off every single non-soft-tissue injury as completely unavoidable and bad luck.

ACL's, ankles, stress fractures, back problems (which we have had plenty of) can definitely be attributed by form, training loads, overuse etc. Our current injurt list is 9 players, 4 of them are soft-tissue, hardly a strong argument.

He completely failed with McGovern. Considering how much we have invested in him, plus all the time in "the cage" Russell spent with him; he was the perfect project to prove his worth, and it's the same as any other year.

Not to mention the fitness levels of Williams and playing players hurt.

Can lead a horse to water. Sounds more about culture to me

 

[Soapy V]

He completely failed with McGovern.

Not to mention the fitness levels of Williams and playing players hurt.

Ridiculous and naive comments. Maybe Russell's recommendation was they don't play and Teague still played them?

We have dieticians etc. Maybe the players don't listen??

 

[Soapy V]

Until Carlton has evened out the capability of midfield rotations it will be battling to match the sides that do have this depth. We have seen this year that an injured Cripps is played and the center bounce set up is rarely changed compared to better teams - so yeah not rocket science to figure that the same layers are doing all the heavy lifting - all the time and it means they get more tired than opponents.

The second issue is lack of equal quality on the outside to better teams. Carlton can win the ball as well if not better than most teams- but midfield play breaks down too easily in transition - again lack of enough quality in the midfield and also points to weaknesses n the game style the CLub is playing - given who they have to draw on to execute eg I doubt wether a player liek Cottrell woudl be a starting player in any other team atm and his position dictates that he is a playmaker or reaching to put Setterfield on a wing - a bloke that is barely faster than Cripps and no better kick.

In this context it is fair to point to disappointment in the lack of progress in certain high picked players who ( in the coach's opinion ) aren't up to it. Carlton is stacked with on-ballers and very light on outside run and A grade kicking ability - using a game plan that relies on both.

Which is why certain 'fixes' aren't impossible to contemplate and implement - the open question being ( obviously) coaching as a group capability.

Regardless of the past now we need to see what we have in terms of midfield options. We have a heap of our list but they have either not been played or played out of position. We know what Cripps & Walsh can do and Curnow is near the end. We need to play Dow Ramsay Carroll Kemp O'Brien Stocker Fogarty Fisher and see what they can do

 

[Robertio]

Yep, Carlton fans only seem to care about what draft pick a player was.

And they have plenty of early draft picks.

That's a total fabrication, you can't speak for anyone.

 

[blue healer]

A list to die for?

Not my comment. Funnily enough was expressed by David King on 360 when discussing who would take over from Bolton.

 

[LordLucifer]

eg I doubt wether a player liek Cottrell woudl be a starting player in any other team atm

He shouldn't be a starting player ever and I'd even go as far as he shouldn't even be on our list in the first place.

Our problems are multi-layered but carrying substandard players on the list is just one part of it.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Not my comment. Funnily enough was expressed by David King on 360 when discussing who would take over from Bolton.

While the language is flowery, it does raise the threshold question - is Carltons list such that they should be top 8?

 

[Soapy V]

While the language is flowery, it does raise the threshold question - is Carltons list such that they should be top 8?

IMO yes if it was developed and coached properly and had a good culture but that’s just my opinion

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Not my comment. Funnily enough was expressed by David King on 360 when discussing who would take over from Bolton.

So David King said it. You said carlton fans think it. Some carlton fans may think the list is really good but the majority think it needs improving and there are some who think it's dogshit.

To die for? What in the * carlton fans have you been talking to.?!

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

While the language is flowery, it does raise the threshold question - is Carltons list such that they should be top 8?

Yes. Probably not top 4 but should most definitely be a team 'in the mix' for 5-8

 

[bigm386]

Yes. Probably not top 4 but should most definitely be a team 'in the mix' for 5-8

I had us 10-12 this year.

If all things went well I would have said we would sneak into the 8.

But I also had Melbourne in the bottom 6 so yes

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I had us 10-12 this year.

If all things went well I would have said we would sneak into the 8.

But I also had Melbourne in the bottom 6 so yes

I had us highest 8th, but that wasn't on list quality that was just on a coach that I figured would probably need this season for the game plan to start clicking, expecting a few inconsistencies along the way.

Oops. It doesn't seem to click at all . Or at least not for any reasonable length of time.

 

[Soapy V]

I had us 10-12 this year.

If all things went well I would have said we would sneak into the 8.

But I also had Melbourne in the bottom 6 so yes

Anywhere form 10-14 for me depending upon injuries etc. 2022 was always the year to step up for me and if we can fix a few things I still believe it

 

[blue healer]

So David King said it. You said carlton fans think it. Some carlton fans may think the list is really good but the majority think it needs improving and there are some who think it's dogshit.

To die for? What in the fu** carlton fans have you been talking to.?!

"To die for is just an expression that I borrowed" but if you think there are only 'some' who think our list is really good I'd dispute that. The majority think that way. And there are very, very few who think it's dogshit. The majority actually think it's our coach, the coaching panel, the selectors, the football manager, the fitness boss and even the CEO that are dogshit.

I don't have to talk to Carlton supporters (in fact not a lot of them around the Northern Beaches) to gain an insight into there opinions, just need to read this thread and those about Teague on our board.

Guessing this should be worth a couple of thumbs down.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

"To die for is just an expression that I borrowed" but if you think there are only 'some' who think our list is really good I'd dispute that. The majority think that way. And there are very, very few who think it's dogshit. The majority actually think it's our coach, the coaching panel, the selectors, the football manager, the fitness boss and even the CEO that are dogshit.

I don't have to talk to Carlton supporters (in fact not a lot of them around the Northern Beaches) to gain an insight into there opinions, just need to read this thread and those about Teague on our board.

Guessing this should be worth a couple of thumbs down.

I don't think any of it is dogshit but I think the issues lie in those areas more than they do the list. I'm really really not convinced that our list is really good yet but thats different to 'to die for'.

I'm also a northern beaches blue, so is another semi-regular poster hah