When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[hk89]

Well they sure as hell aren’t an incredibly fit side. If they were maybe they’d both to run both ways in a game just once this year.

You sure this is on the fitness guy? Maybe you've recruited a bunch of soft front runners who have no defensive side and don't work hard enough on the track to run both ways, even if they cared to?

Pretty sure we'd be happy to have him back if you want to cancel his contract.

 

[btdg]

Well his methods could perhaps be outdated.

I’ve seen no improvement from the club fitness wise since he’s got there. Constantly got a lot of blokes running around looking underdone too.

This is very true. It's also been an absolute nightmare of an 18-month stretch for a fitness trainer though.

COVID interruptions and bubbles, into a shortened offseason, into a bunch of unlucky preseason and early season injuries for us (contact injuries, etc) and some very complex pre-existing cases (Docherty, Marchbank, Charlie Curnow - all just long-term and complicated).

There's no doubting Russell's credentials. His ability to lead a complicated program during an unprecedented pandemic hasn't been spectacular. Thankfully, that shouldn't be what he has to do for the next decade...

 

[PP34]

You sure this is on the fitness guy? Maybe you've recruited a bunch of soft front runners who have no defensive side and don't work hard enough on the track to run both ways, even if they cared to?

Pretty sure we'd be happy to have him back if you want to cancel his contract.

You only have to look at the decline in Patrick Cripps as a footballer to question if things are going wrong somewhere.

 

[Cudi]

Can't wait for the great grub Liddle to gut that place looking for answers

Best thing Carlton can do is give Teague time to get that team operating well and he will given time

But this has Carlton of 9 years ago written all over it where they will get spooked into sacking the coach looking for a big name again. History repeats

Can I ask why Liddle is a grub?

 

[Bulldog1954]

So the main issues are the assistant coaches and the fitness guy?

 

[JustaBattler]

Well they sure as hell aren’t an incredibly fit side. If they were maybe they’d both to run both ways in a game just once this year.

But yes that must make me a brown nose to trolls. Righto.

Did you think the same about Malthouse and Buttifant?

Forgive me if I’m not ready to sit here frothing at the mouth over the high performance coach responsible for a side that is an absolute embarrassment with their running ability throughout games.

Everyone is so amazing at Carlton. It’s why we always do so well…

What makes you think the side is unfit relative to other teams fitness levels? Define fitness why dont you. How about comparing total meters run on average V opposiiton meters run and look at the facts as far as fitness goes - you might be surprised
I'll ignore the rest of your drivel - I've just realised you are one of those professional moaner and whiner type of faux supporter that every Club has.

 

[hk89]

What makes you think the side is unfit relative to other teams fitness levels? Define fitness why dont you. How about comparing total meters run on average V opposiiton meters run and look at the facts as far as fitness goes - you might be surprised

I don't have total metres run figures, but your line of discussion got me interested. The closest I have is total metres gained, and I was surprised to see Carlton are the #2 team for metres gained. Seem they have a lot of run and carry when THEY have the ball. It is no surprise they might be a bit tired by the end of the game if those metres gained are often produced by running with the ball rather than kicking it. Interestingly, they are only #11 for metres gained differential, which indicates they are not doing a lot to stop their opposition moving the ball forward, so perhaps there is a lack of defensive mindset. In fact Carlton is #1 team for ALLOWING metres gained by their opposition. Either way , it is hard to lay this at the feet of the fitness guys. I can see how this might look like poor fitness when you are watching a team that has this kind of problem (no defensive side), but the coach and players need to take some responsibility I would have thought. I'm guessing from your posts, that you've seen total running numbers, and Carlton are probably running a LOT - just not always hard enough both ways judging from how much metres gains they are allowing their opposition.

 

[JustaBattler]

I don't have total metres run figures, but your line of discussion got me interested. The closest I have is total metres gained, and I was surprised to see Carlton are the #2 team for metres gained. Seem they have a lot of run and carry when THEY have the ball. It is no surprise they might be a bit tired by the end of the game if those metres gained are often produced by running with the ball rather than kicking it. Interestingly, they are only #11 for metres gained differential, which indicates they are not doing a lot to stop their opposition moving the ball forward, so perhaps there is a lack of defensive mindset. In fact Carlton is #1 team for ALLOWING metres gained by their opposition. Either way , it is hard to lay this at the feet of the fitness guys. I can see how this might look like poor fitness when you are watching a team that has this kind of problem (no defensive side), but the coach and players need to take some responsibility I would have thought. I'm guessing from your posts, that you've seen total running numbers, and Carlton are probably running a LOT - just not always hard enough both ways judging from how much metres gains they are allowing their opposition.

Meters gained and all premutation of such stats are derivative measures because the rely on execution of a game plan - right now Carlton has half a game plan - and that will need to be either improved to fix the other half or changed to accomodate what is unfixable.

If the in attack part of the game plan makes the in defense part of the game plan too weak, meaning players cant execute because of structural flaws in teh forward game - by definition the meters lost or any other differentials will reflect this.

None of this speaks to fitness levels though. None of this points to lack of run each way. Specific players might be shown up - but even that proves nothing - there are running differentials betwen players in all Clubs.

I'm calling out the blatant blather posted on here which is just wrong in fact. There is nothing wrong with meters run by the team versus AFL standards.

 

[hk89]

I'm calling out the blatant blather posted on here which is just wrong in fact. There is nothing wrong with meters run by the team versus AFL standards.

I figured that might be the case - which is what I'd expect from a team whose fitness is being handled by Russell. I wish we could have kept him, but it is hard to get excited about turning up to the same work place year after year, especially when they are about to head into a regeneration cycle. So I can definitely see why Carlton would have looked like an exciting new challenge for him.

Given how good he was at Hawthorn, I would be very surprised if whatever is going wrong at Carlton has ANYTHING to do with Russell (which sadly doesn't seem to be the majority impression of posters on your own board, but I get that too, we have a few number of people on our board blaming Wrighty and Clarko for our current ladder position instead of recognising the AFL driven circle of life has finally caught up with us).

 

[chunkylover53]

So you say that the players are unfit and the Fitness coach is a dud - but you dont care to look at any evidence or facts that might contradict your 'thought bubbles' - yep moaner status confirmed.

Facts are:

- Our injury problems have not one bit improved under Russell
- We struggle to run out quarters, have you seen our red time stats?
- Seriously questionable decisions like letting Curnow do deadlifts, stripping weight off Cripps.

GPS distance is a farce, it's about number of sprinting efforts, HR zone, amongst many other KPI's we wouldn't be privy to.

Your reaction is ridiculously over the top - the club has chosen a full review of the football department which no doubt includes elements of the High Performance Team, who have every right to be questioned at this stage.

 

[10571z]

Huge signing for Carlton. McKay imo their most important signing.

Cripps imo if they get a good deal should let him go

 

[RAPPA]

Huge signing for Carlton. McKay imo their most important signing.

Cripps imo if they get a good deal should let him go

2 years suits both parties - Carlton has short term security and McKay has time on his side in 2 years to field long-term lucrative deals.

 

[blue healer]

Well they sure as hell aren’t an incredibly fit side. If they were maybe they’d both to run both ways in a game just once this year.

But yes that must make me a brown nose to trolls. Righto.

Did you think the same about Malthouse and Buttifant?

Forgive me if I’m not ready to sit here frothing at the mouth over the high performance coach responsible for a side that is an absolute embarrassment with their running ability throughout games.

Everyone is so amazing at Carlton. It’s why we always do so well…

Doesn't matter how fit a player is, if they don't want to run both ways they just won't.

Too many Carlton folk spend too much of their time looking for reasons outside the players themselves for our deficiencies. Basic opinion is that we've put together a list to die for and if we under perform it's because of the coach, development or the fitness guru. More than one chapter in our story IMO.

 

[JustaBattler]

Facts are:

- Our injury problems have not one bit improved under Russell
- We struggle to run out quarters, have you seen our red time stats?
- Seriously questionable decisions like letting Curnow do deadlifts, stripping weight off Cripps.

GPS distance is a farce, it's about number of sprinting efforts, HR zone, amongst many other KPI's we wouldn't be privy to.

Your reaction is ridiculously over the top - the club has chosen a full review of the football department which no doubt includes elements of the High Performance Team, who have every right to be questioned at this stage.

Firstly I don't do ridiculous or over the top and I always know when people do the ad hominem thing they have no argument - just a typed 'voice'

Secondly:

you are conflating injuries and your idea of who is to blame with fitness - which are two different things
you link so called red time goals with fitness which is a big call - the easier call to make is looking in other areas of problems

Thirdly:

I don't have to make the case bout unavailable statistics- I was responding to people spraying drivel and constructing narratives - sans referencing statistics. In other words your words are just supporting the rational view that says Carlton runs as much as any other team - but seems to lack defensive capability.

if actual effort levels are similar if not better and the repeated results are always evidencing similar outcomes - then clearly the issue(s) lie with game plan and execution.

 

[JustaBattler]

Doesn't matter how fit a player is, if they don't want to run both ways they just won't.

Too many Carlton folk spend too much of their time looking for reasons outside the players themselves for our deficiencies. Basic opinion is that we've put together a list to die for and if we underperform it's because of the coach, development or the fitness guru. More than one chapter in our story IMO.

The evidence is that players do run both ways - the fact that the opposition finds easy pathways and typically achieves more inside 50 entries underlines weaknesses in both execution with ball in hand and structure without. Improving attacking efficiency ( Carlton is bottom 4 in conversion from 50 inside stats ) automatically deprives opposition from rebound opportunity - just for starters. Reducing between the acs turnovers ( again Carlton is below average here) again diminishes the opportunity for the opposition to attack.

I hear people say that Carlton's list is better than current outcomes therefore ( insert whatever ) - an uncomfortable truth may well be that Carlton bats very shallow in quality of midfield and the game plan they are being asked to play doesn't suit the capability of available talent.

Carlton's available statistics point to many below-average outcomes to blame it on Russell or fitness - I think that lets off coaching and game plan - way way too easily.

 

[Soapy V]

The evidence is that players do run both ways - the fact that the opposition finds easy pathways and typically achieves more inside 50 entries underlines weaknesses in both execution with ball in hand and structure without. Improving attacking efficiency ( Carlton is bottom 4 in conversion from 50 inside stats ) automatically deprives opposition from rebound opportunity - just for starters. Reducing between the acs turnovers ( again Carlton is below average here) again diminishes the opportunity for the opposition to attack.

I hear people say that Carlton's list is better than current outcomes therefore ( insert whatever ) - an uncomfortable truth may well be that Carlton bats very shallow in quality of midfield and the game plan they are being asked to play doesn't suit the capability of available talent.

Carlton's available statistics point to many below-average outcomes to blame it on Russell or fitness - I think that lets off coaching and game plan - way way too easily.

I don't buy the players aren't fit crap. IMO it's more about effort and belief. Players aren't happy and right or wrong it shows

 

[JustaBattler]

I figured that might be the case - which is what I'd expect from a team whose fitness is being handled by Russell. I wish we could have kept him, but it is hard to get excited about turning up to the same work place year after year, especially when they are about to head into a regeneration cycle. So I can definitely see why Carlton would have looked like an exciting new challenge for him.

Given how good he was at Hawthorn, I would be very surprised if whatever is going wrong at Carlton has ANYTHING to do with Russell (which sadly doesn't seem to be the majority impression of posters on your own board, but I get that too, we have a few number of people on our board blaming Wrighty and Clarko for our current ladder position instead of recognising the AFL driven circle of life has finally caught up with us).

I don't do stats on posting on Carlton board- but I think it is a stretch to say that the majority are pointing fingers at Russell. What you are witnessing is a bunch of angry supporters who feel jipped by the performance of the team - given expectations fuelled by marketing nuff nuffs like Liddle.

The facts are that Carlton has not been able to put a decent forward line on the field for most of the year due to injuries to starting players and the midfield is (relative to better opposition) too reliant on too few in two key areas : Outside run and kicking skill.

Carlton was always going to struggle given late pre-season injury to key players and in-season injury to others - especially given the tough fixture it was presented with. Right now it is a middling Club with all that comes with that.

 

[JustaBattler]

I don't buy the players aren't fit crap. IMO it's more about effort and belief. Players aren't happy and right or wrong it shows

I think it is just a shyte game plan and ridiculous out-of-position selections - too many to even bother listing. Of course players wouldn't be happy with performance.

 

[Joao]

I don't buy the players aren't fit crap. IMO it's more about effort and belief. Players aren't happy and right or wrong it shows

I agree. It's mentality not fitness.

 

[owen87]

I don't buy the players aren't fit crap. IMO it's more about effort and belief. Players aren't happy and right or wrong it shows

Most teams cover similar amounts of ground during games, so personally I think it's more about how they use that running than whether or not players can run it.

Teams that set up well, minimise the amount of wasted running they do, and maximise the beneficial running because of it. Always in the right place at the right time etc...

Teams that don't set up well, do the opposite. So they're covering a lot of ground mainly chasing the opposition around.

Look at Melbourne; same fitness guy for a couple of seasons but they're suddenly running out games incredibly well (yesterday aside) and looking a hell of a lot better structured around the ground all at once. I also think Mark Williams has been the big reason for that.

 

[Stamos]

Most teams cover similar amounts of ground during games, so personally I think it's more about how they use that running than whether or not players can run it.

Teams that set up well, minimise the amount of wasted running they do, and maximise the beneficial running because of it. Always in the right place at the right time etc...

Teams that don't set up well, do the opposite. So they're covering a lot of ground mainly chasing the opposition around.

Look at Melbourne; same fitness guy for a couple of seasons but they're suddenly running out games incredibly well (yesterday aside) and looking a hell of a lot better structured around the ground all at once. I also think Mark Williams has been the big reason for that.

We are so inefficient with our structure.

For what it's worth, a poster on our board says they asked a current opposition coach (who's having a good year) about Carlton, and he said that we spread "wide, which is tiring".

 

[owen87]

We are so inefficient with our structure.

For what it's worth, a poster on our board says they asked a current opposition coach (who's having a good year) about Carlton, and he said that we spread "wide, which is tiring".

Would make sense, most of the top sides seem to focus on the corridor and forcing opposition teams to kick wide down the line so at best they're only likely to get a lesser percentage shot on goal from an angle.

In a somewhat related sense, there was a fantastic article a few years back about Adelaide (around 2017) and Taylor Walker's ability to kick long goals accurately being a nightmare for opposition defensive zones. Effectively they have to cover exponentially more ground to stop guys like Tex from getting good percentage shots on goal because of it.

 

[WillHayward]

Massive signing re McKay

 

[Gavin Excell]

Massive signing re McKay

Yes
Prob most important player there

 

[LordLucifer]

Huge signing for Carlton. McKay imo their most important signing.

Cripps imo if they get a good deal should let him go

I think it is imperative we let Cripps go.

Besides, he can jump ship via FA, we may not be able to entertain a 'good deal'.