Covid-19 Wuhan Coronavirus (COVID-19) - Part 5 - Get vaccinated.

[Chief]

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infec...d-19-vaccination-case-surveillance-051121.pdf

In the peak fortnight of the outbreak to date (25 August to 7 September), the COVID-19 case rate among 2-dose vaccinated people was 49.5 per 100,000 while in unvaccinated people it was 561 per 100,000, a more than 10-fold difference. The rates of COVID-19 ICU admissions or deaths peaked in the fortnight 8 September to 21 September at 0.9 per 100,000 in 2-dose vaccinated people compared to 15.6 per 100,000 in unvaccinated people, a greater than 16-fold difference.

 

[HPKS]

More than nine in 10 residents of Western Australia approve of COVID response, Mapping Social Cohesion Survey finds - ABC News

www.google.com.au

 

[owen87]

Considering Sweden's relative performance against all the other counties of Europe, is more representative than limiting to a handful of countries within Europe.

Scandinavia and Europe aren't apples to apples comparison.

 

[CD Xbow]

Another sad story - The life and tragic death of John Eyers – a fitness fanatic who refused the vaccine | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian. Please get vaccinated.

Its a f’ed up disease. I think when discussing "positivity" it needs to be seen relatively. Florida has a positive COVID record relative to other US states, especially factoring the social and economic negatives foregone. Sweden likewise in a European context. It's telling that there has been more deaths under Biden than Trump, despite mandates and the existence of vaccines. I'm an actual scientist but I don't understand those stats. Curious tho'

Balls in, are you really a scientist? I'm not convinced given your assertions, perhaps geology would be a possibility for you.

I don't think it's that hard to work out what we are seeing.

The death toll was high at the start (see graph below of US cases/deaths) because
1. That's what happens, the susceptible die first
2. Treatment was poor and vaccines unavailable
3. Covid denial/confusion/poor acceptance of public health measures

The fall through the first half of this year in both deaths and cases will mostly be due to vaccination and better treatment. Later this year we see a rise in cases and deaths with the delta variant, though the death rate is lower, it's still substantial. We know the unvaccinated have 10x the chance of dying with delta than the unvaccinated. As of Nov 10th nearly 30% of Americans remain unvaccinated - see 30% Of U.S. Adults Are Still Unvaccinated — Here’s What Could Make Them Finally Get The Shot (forbes.com). here are much lower rates of vaccination in counties that voted for Trump - see below

 

[Balls In]

Another sad story - The life and tragic death of John Eyers – a fitness fanatic who refused the vaccine | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian. Please get vaccinated.


Balls in, are you really a scientist? I'm not convinced given your assertions, perhaps geology would be a possibility for you.

I don't think it's that hard to work out what we are seeing.

The death toll was high at the start (see graph below of US cases/deaths) because
1. That's what happens, the susceptible die first
2. Treatment was poor and vaccines unavailable
3. Covid denial/confusion/poor acceptance of public health measures
View attachment 1290308
The fall through the first half of this year in both deaths and cases will mostly be due to vaccination and better treatment. Later this year we see a rise in cases and deaths with the delta variant, though the death rate is lower, it's still substantial. We know the unvaccinated have 10x the chance of dying with delta than the unvaccinated. As of Nov 10th nearly 30% of Americans remain unvaccinated - see 30% Of U.S. Adults Are Still Unvaccinated — Here’s What Could Make Them Finally Get The Shot (forbes.com). here are much lower rates of vaccination in counties that voted for Trump - see below

View attachment 1290304

I'm an enviro engineer so more an enthusiastic dabbler in the many black arts comprising that field. Master of none. Not to be critical but I'm not sure your analysis covers off on what is going on pre and post vaccine (don't worry I have no explaination either). I'm also not going to weigh in with explainations for Sweden's good relative covid outcomes on the Eurpean contanant - I don't presume to know why but my theory is natural immunity is the best immunity. I only raise these issues as the examples seem to run counter to the "accepted" covid responses that add much social and economic pain.

 

[Mindtraveller]

I'm an enviro engineer so more an enthusiastic dabbler in the many black arts comprising that field. Master of none.

So literally not a scientist? Don't call yourself a scientist when you're not one. You sound like every other moron that calls themselves one just cause they work in a laboratory. That doesn't mean you're a scientist

 

[owen87]

Am literally a scientist.

I'm an enviro engineer

Interesting

 

[Balls In]

So literally not a scientist? Don't call yourself a scientist when you're not one. You sound like every other moron that calls themselves one just cause they work in a laboratory. That doesn't mean you're a scientist

No I am an actual scientist you goose just not specialised in any one field. What do you think environmental engineers do? I live in a world of dust, noise, vibration, plume dispersion, ecology, hydrology, flora/fauna, coral, waste water, hydrocarbons, sustainable designs and by proximity, heritage.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Belgium : Pop 12million 2300 Deaths per million.
UK : Pop 68 million. 2120 Deaths per million.
Spain : Pop 46 million. 1882 Deaths per million.
France : 65 million . 1819 Deaths per million.
Portugal : 10 million. 1816 Deaths per million.
Greece : 10 million. 1754 Deaths per million.
Sweden : 10 million. 1484 Deaths per million.
Austria : 9 million. 1376 Deaths per million.
Switzerland : 9 million 1320 Deaths per million.
Germany : 84 Million 1214 Deaths per million.
Netherlands : 17Million 1129 Deaths per million.
Ireland : 5Million. 1127 Deaths per million.
Denmark : Pop 5million. 497 Deaths per million.
Finland : Pop 5 Million 240 Deaths per million.
Norway : Pop 5.5 Million. 192 Deaths per million.

Variables: Population, General movement from other areas. Lifestyle Climate Geography. Covid death counting methodology.

To me the standout performer is Germany, a huge population, with massive traffic.
The majority of cases in Sweden are Stockholm ( a city of 2.2 Million ) 282000 cases of Covid, double what Victoria has had so far.

What would be the reason that it should not be compared with its Neighbour, Denmark, which is also in proximity with Germany?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

No I am an actual scientist you goose just not specialised in any one field. What do you think environmental engineers do? I live in a world of dust, noise, vibration, plume dispersion, ecology, hydrology, flora/fauna, coral, waste water, hydrocarbons, sustainable designs and by proximity, heritage.

So explain how people criticizing you on this forum are criticizing science?

 

[Chief]

Belgium : Pop 12million 2300 Deaths per million.
UK : Pop 68 million. 2120 Deaths per million.
Spain : Pop 46 million. 1882 Deaths per million.
France : 65 million . 1819 Deaths per million.
Portugal : 10 million. 1816 Deaths per million.
Greece : 10 million. 1754 Deaths per million.
Sweden : 10 million. 1484 Deaths per million.
Austria : 9 million. 1376 Deaths per million.
Switzerland : 9 million 1320 Deaths per million.
Germany : 84 Million 1214 Deaths per million.
Netherlands : 17Million 1129 Deaths per million.
Ireland : 5Million. 1127 Deaths per million.
Denmark : Pop 5million. 497 Deaths per million.
Finland : Pop 5 Million 240 Deaths per million.
Norway : Pop 5.5 Million. 192 Deaths per million.

Variables: Population, General movement from other areas. Lifestyle Climate Geography.

To me the standout performer is Germany, a huge population, with massive traffic.
The majority of cases in Sweden are Stockholm ( a city of 2.2 Million ) 282000 cases of Covid, double what Victoria has had so far.

What would be the reason that it should not be compared with its Neighbour, Denmark, which is also in proximity with Germany?

One thing to note, Belgium had a broader definition of Covid death so they are a bit of an outlier there.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm an enviro engineer so more an enthusiastic dabbler in the many black arts comprising that field. Master of none. Not to be critical but I'm not sure your analysis covers off on what is going on pre and post vaccine (don't worry I have no explaination either). I'm also not going to weigh in with explainations for Sweden's good relative covid outcomes on the Eurpean contenant - I don't presume to know why but my theory is natural immunity is the best immunity. I only raise these issues as the examples seem to run counter to the "accepted" covid responses that add much social and economic pain.

Natural immunity is great.
The cost of failure is death.

They used to use it for smallpox before they invented....wait for it..............Vaccines.

 

[Mindtraveller]

No I am an actual scientist you goose just not specialised in any one field. What do you think environmental engineers do? I live in a world of dust, noise, vibration, plume dispersion, ecology, hydrology, flora/fauna, coral, waste water, hydrocarbons, sustainable designs and by proximity, heritage.

Good for you. If you don't know what field you specialise in, how do you know what you are? My point before still stands. You're not a scientist in this field (medical research, epidemiology, data science) and although your background probably assists you in reading further than the average person, it doesn't mean you drop "I'm a scientist" to try and gain validation.

I put on a band aid so therefore I'm a doctor

 

[Balls In]

So explain how people criticizing you on this forum are criticizing science?

I assume you didn't hear Fauci's claims that he speaks on behalf of all science? This is what I was piss-taking.

Also I don't feel criticized and if so that's others problem. Literally all I've said on this thread is that Sweden and Florida are interesting counterpoints to the lock down, mask up, mandate crowd. I think they present a reasonable take stock, especially as people may need to front up to a reality where those things can no longer be maintained if Covid rolls on and on and on.

 

[Balls In]

Belgium : Pop 12million 2300 Deaths per million.
UK : Pop 68 million. 2120 Deaths per million.
Spain : Pop 46 million. 1882 Deaths per million.
France : 65 million . 1819 Deaths per million.
Portugal : 10 million. 1816 Deaths per million.
Greece : 10 million. 1754 Deaths per million.
Sweden : 10 million. 1484 Deaths per million.
Austria : 9 million. 1376 Deaths per million.
Switzerland : 9 million 1320 Deaths per million.
Germany : 84 Million 1214 Deaths per million.
Netherlands : 17Million 1129 Deaths per million.
Ireland : 5Million. 1127 Deaths per million.
Denmark : Pop 5million. 497 Deaths per million.
Finland : Pop 5 Million 240 Deaths per million.
Norway : Pop 5.5 Million. 192 Deaths per million.

Variables: Population, General movement from other areas. Lifestyle Climate Geography.

To me the standout performer is Germany, a huge population, with massive traffic.
The majority of cases in Sweden are Stockholm ( a city of 2.2 Million ) 282000 cases of Covid, double what Victoria has had so far.

What would be the reason that it should not be compared with its Neighbour, Denmark, which is also in proximity with Germany?

I'd be lying if I said I could unpack the mirad of variables that underly these stats. However I am confident "deaths by population" are a poor critieria to base covid policy. Even the high of 2300 deaths per million of population isn't statistically dissimilar to a country like Germany that you note has performed pretty well. What is not reflected is the cost to the economy, to kids schooling and the overall mental and general health of people and there is a lot of emerging evidence that these costs far outweigh the comparitively low statistaical variance in deaths.

 

[owen87]

2300 deaths per million of population isn't statistically dissimilar to a country like Germany

Germany : 84 Million 1214 Deaths per million.

the comparitively low statistaical variance in deaths

Belgium : Pop 12million 2300 Deaths per million.

Norway : Pop 5.5 Million. 192 Deaths per million.

emerging evidence

I'm not convinced you're really any kind of engineer with statements like these.

 

[Cyg1992]

I'm not convinced you're really any kind of engineer with statements like these.

I'm convinced he's one of those 'scientists' that films himself in his car ranting against vaccines and 5G towers.
That gives him the credibility to defy logic and spout alternative facts despite confessing he's "not specialised in any field"

A car seat self filmed video > actual science.

 

[Cyg1992]

What have we achieved, after 20 months of pandemic restrictions, masks, curfew, gym closures, home isolation, restricted exercise times, playgrounds, businesses, schools closed...?

Cases today in Victoria are higher than they were last year - at the height of the pandemic. Exclude the aged care debacle and deaths today are higher than at any time during the last 20 months. So, by what measure, what serpentine logic can the Andrews' Government - or indeed any government - claim that the vaccines are highly efficacious? The only thing they appear to be highly effective at - is creating division.

It is clear that the government has removed restrictions and lockdowns out of outright policy failure and exhaustion.

It is doubtful there is a tighter medical correlation in all of history than what we have seen since July 2021 thru to October/November 2021. Can anyone attempt to explain the miraculous lockstep correlation with the frenzied drive in vaccination rates and the increased incidence of covid cases and deaths during this period?

By any measure, any analysis, even allowing for the most fantastical reasoning - this is 20 months of egregious failed policies.

The division is created by the crackpots that believe the blood of Jesus protects them better than any medicine and that 5G towers created and spread covid 19.

 

[Chief]

I'm an enviro engineer

That’s not “a scientist”. And it’s nothing to do with the pandemic and research on same.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I'm an enviro engineer so more an enthusiastic dabbler in the many black arts comprising that field. Master of none.

 

[Malifice]

Considering Sweden's relative performance against all the other counties of Europe, is more representative than limiting to a handful of countries within Europe.

Why stop at Europe? Why dont we include Australia?

You're cherry picking your parameters to suit your own argument. Clearly a context of [lets compare it to geographically, politically, economically and culturally near identical/ adjacent fellow Scandinavian countries (Finland/ Norway/ Denmark, but excluding Iceland as it's too remote), with far less variables at play] is clearly more appropriate and accurate to [lets throw Turkey, France, Austria, Italy, Hungary and Ireland in there as well] .

 

[Malifice]

If the conspiracies are truly overblown

They are.

And its best if you keep your theories over on that board as well mate.

 

[Balls In]

Why stop at Europe? Why dont we include Australia?

You're cherry picking your parameters to suit your own argument. Clearly a context of [lets compare it to geographically, politically, economically and culturally near identical/ adjacent fellow Scandinavian countries (Finland/ Norway/ Denmark, but excluding Iceland as it's too remote), with far less variables at play] is clearly more appropriate and accurate to [lets throw Turkey, France, Austria, Italy, Hungary and Ireland in there as well] .

Australia is not on the European continent and we are an island. In terms of death rates after 2 years, Sweden did well in comparison to other European countries but poorly in comparison to other Nordic countries. Given that lockdown populism can't continue forever, it's simply an interesting case study of the alternative.

 

[Malifice]

Australia is not on the European continent and we are an island.

Which is why I was prepared to exclude Iceland from the Scandinavian/ Nordic countries. (Plus Greenland and the Faroe islands, but everyone forgets about them anyway).

In terms of death rates after 2 years, Sweden did well in comparison to other European countries but poorly in comparison to other Nordic countries.

Positions I agree with, but I think the objectively better standard to use when looking at Sweden and measuring its response (and the one I've been using since day 1) is to compare Sweden with its Scandinavian neighbors.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Australia is not on the European continent and we are an island. In terms of death rates after 2 years, Sweden did well in comparison to other European countries but poorly in comparison to other Nordic countries. Given that lockdown populism can't continue forever, it's simply an interesting case study of the alternative.

I think you'd probably find that Stockholm probably had a similar death count to Birmingham.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Australia is not on the European continent and we are an island. In terms of death rates after 2 years, Sweden did well in comparison to other European countries but poorly in comparison to other Nordic countries. Given that lockdown populism can't continue forever, it's simply an interesting case study of the alternative.

again lets compare GDP outcomes (only that I don't know any other accessible way to measure economic outcomes)

Sweden
Sweden GDP Growth Rate | 2021 Data | 2022 Forecast | 1981-2020 Historical | Calendar (tradingeconomics.com)

Norway
Norway GDP Annual Growth Rate | 2021 Data | 2022 Forecast | 1979-2020 Historical (tradingeconomics.com)

Germany
Germany GDP Growth Rate | 2021 Data | 2022 Forecast | 1970-2020 Historical | Calendar (tradingeconomics.com)

United Kingdom
United Kingdom GDP Growth Rate | 2021 Data | 2022 Forecast | 1955-2020 Historical (tradingeconomics.com)

Hard to argue that Sweden has outdone Norway, looks about on par with Germany, and has done better than UK