NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Gralin]

No you have not. Not once have you explained why. You have never tried to discuss the article. Only abusing Jackson.

Show us where Jackson article was wrong??? Stop being a coward.

Its very simple really, he says bad things about North's coach

 

[Slartibartfast]

Its very simple really, he says bad things about North's coach

I dont get why he is allowed to run a commentary about a journalist when the thread is about racism at HFC.

 

[ferball]

FFS.

And what was the sentence prior to that? Where he said what Clarkson actually did and said.

The quote you picked, is clearly his interpretation of what Clarkson meant when he said to 'get rid of them'.

Seriously. People are just f***ing dumb.

He felt he had no choice. "He told me to kill my unborn kid."

Is that a direct quote from "Ian"?

Cos if its not then we already have a problem. That is incredibly emotional language, and it could be exactly how that kid felt even if it was not what Clarkson wanted him to think.

Its completely valid that he felt that way too.

But if he didn't actually say that exact line then its sus as to print it and if he did its like a hand grenade thrown into any mediation (and that was a recommended follow up according to the original review wasn't it?) Which is again sus as. The only way that's okay is if "Ian" explicitly said it or asked him to print it imo. And even then it might just make everything worse.

Honestly I get why "Ian" might have wanted that said. He might not give a s**t anymore cos he's so hurt by the experience and his reliving of it. And cos * all you white campaigners. We've all felt that way at times.

Anyway I assume good behaviour from Clarkson. That's my bias - he started his career with us and I remember his first game. I don't want this to be an ugly mess. His u19s captain had FN ancestors and he had Jim and Phil Krakouer playing in the senior side. I'd hope he'd have seen enough ugly racism to reject it outright. He built good relationships with indigenous players and had some wanting to play under him even just a few years ago. Same with Fagan - able to poach good indigenous players or players with indigenous kids. (So its likely their mobs consider that player one of them.)

But he may have behaved like an absolute bastard in which case * him. We should find out soon enough.

 

[Sherrinator]

Love it.
Clarko next.

Case closed and nothing to see here

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

I hope they are being given support as they transition back to normality

 

[The Warlord]

Its very simple really, he says bad things about North's coach

He's your clubs employee right now.

Funny how no Hawthorn supporters like you detected anything like this happening when Clarkson was winning you flags.

But now you're all sure it did once he's left. It's quite something.

 

[Forward Press]

He's your clubs employee right now.

Funny how no Hawthorn supporters like you detected anything like this happening when Clarkson was winning you flags.

But now you're all sure it did once he's left. It's quite something.

I can now believe you're a journalist. Dodging the answer to an obvious question, reframing it to attack others unjustly, while largely ignoring your own clear conflict of interest and bias.

How is the view from your cubicle at NewsCorp?

 

[ferball]

Particularly regarding cross cultural communication. Problem for the coaches is that even if they weren't as coercive as the stories imply, they've still probably overreached massively and been culturally ignorant. Neither of which support their claims of no wrongdoing.

Well that depends on your definiton of wrongdoing doesn't it.

How culturally inappropriate are you?

 

[ferball]

Interesting how the Australian and new Zealand "Yarn" seems to be now a tradition. ( dating all the way back to 2002).

A short history of Aussie journos’ favourite word

Australian Twitter is full of journalists from Bondi to Fitzroy telling everyone to read their latest "yarn". What's the story here?

www.crikey.com.au

yarning circle

yarning circle noun: a gathering of people who sit in a circle to share experience, knowledge, or ideas; a place where such a meeting is held. During the 1951 Australian election campaign, a federal minister rolled up to a town hall meeting to find a group of local farmers chatting before the event:

slll.cass.anu.edu.au

Blackkfellas have used the term "yarn" to describe talking, especially when its important for as long as I can remember and I'm over 50.

 

[Engimal v3]

Its very simple really, he says bad things about North's coach

Exactly, he should stop

 

[ferball]

I'm not minimising anything about their experience - I haven't even commented on their experience.

This is the comment that I find disturbing - because it is you using the experience of your dead friends to minimise the experience of the people involved in this situation:



I didn't compare their experiences. You did. And you used them to make your argument, which I took offence to. I don't think that is ever reasonable - because as much as you like to think you knew them you don't know what their opinions would have been, and they can't approve or deny what you are saying on their behalf.

Anyway, I am not going to explain it any more - if you don't get why it is wrong, you never will.

That's true.

I'm gonna do it anyway cos people comparing this situation to the stolen generation have no *en idea what they're talking about.

I'm sorry but the wilful abuse and torture to reinforce the violent kidnapping of children en masse across the country shouyld not be compared to this situation. Its its own thing and bad enough (or not) on its own merits. But its not overt genocide.

At least at this point. If it goes that way then Fagan, Clarkson and most of the people running Hawthorn for this century should be drummed out of football.

 

[Gralin]

He's your clubs employee right now.

Funny how no Hawthorn supporters like you detected anything like this happening when Clarkson was winning you flags.

But now you're all sure it did once he's left. It's quite something.

If there's one thing we know in professional sport it's that winning covers everything.

We've seen it many times when the s**t comes out after the run is over, not just in the AFL but everywhere.

Most stuff never see the light of day anyway though.

If it makes you feel better I stopped following footy almost 2 years ago because I didn't see the league or the Hawks as worth supporting with how many times the s**t comes out and gets brushed off without real change

 

[Gralin]

Exactly, he should stop

Why?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Blackkfellas have used the term "yarn" to describe talking, especially when its important for as long as I can remember and I'm over 50.

And I am even older and it has been with us since I was a kid.

 

[ferball]

Oh my goodness, you have literally quoted him saying he has a clear memory of the matters reported.

Unbelievable.

Yeah and he said that memory was different to how it was reported.

IE He remembers something else happening. Not what was reported.

I know you're having a holiday and can't respond right now but if you are lurking at least think about what he actually said.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I don't for a second think Beetson is racist, but also, when you look at the Swans drafting its obvious where their priority is, and its not indigenous kids.

It'd be be fascinating to crunch the numbers and see which clubs are drafting/recruiting at are or above the league average for indigenous players and which aren't.

This is the fascinating thing - both Clarkson and Fagan's team have always been very heavily represented, I would guess well above the odds, with indigenous players.

I mean, there was an exodus of indigenous players from Adelaide after a the racist camp ... largely to Brisbane.

Yeah, I don’t disagree re: the swans.

Also, I agree it is not entirely fair for people to attack clubs who recruit indigenous players and don’t get it perfect when others play it safe. It looks like Clarko and Fagan got it wrong in some cases, likely seriously wrong, but in other cases they have had good outcomes with indigenous players.

This doesn’t excuse the bad outcomes but we don’t need to paint black and white pictures either. It is very complex.

 

[The Warlord]

I dont get why he is allowed to run a commentary about a journalist when the thread is about racism at HFC.

I don't get why so many people are hung up on Jackson.

I'm saying the allegations should be investigated by a body with the powers of a Royal Commission.

I appear to take them far more seriously than you, who thinks one article is unimpeachable truth

 

[ferball]

Not a surprise. I had an argument with a family friend about this topic. He was adamant that indigenous people died at a higher rate than non indigenous people in jail.

I presented him with facts, and he didn’t want to talk about it anymore.

So indigenous people die in custody at a rate four to five times higher than their percentage of the population in general and that means things are okay?

JFC.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Yeah, I don’t disagree re: the swans.

Also, I agree it is not entirely fair for people to attack clubs who recruit indigenous players and don’t get it perfect when others play it safe. It looks like Clarko and Fagan got it wrong in some cases, likely seriously wrong, but in other cases they have had good outcomes with indigenous players.

This doesn’t excuse the bad outcomes but we don’t need to paint black and white pictures either. It is very complex.

I would suggest that the Aboriginal players concerned may have got it horribly wrong playing for Clarko and Fagan.

 

[The Warlord]

And I am even older and it has been with us since I was a kid.

Would I right be thinking that "yarn" is an English approximation at describing something that white Australian culture doesn't have, like as a cultural concept?

Egan makes very clear in the report that he uses yarning as a very culturally specific method of communication.

 

[The Warlord]

Yeah, I don’t disagree re: the swans.

Also, I agree it is not entirely fair for people to attack clubs who recruit indigenous players and don’t get it perfect when others play it safe. It looks like Clarko and Fagan got it wrong in some cases, likely seriously wrong, but in other cases they have had good outcomes with indigenous players.

This doesn’t excuse the bad outcomes but we don’t need to paint black and white pictures either. It is very complex.

One guaranteed outcome of this is that clubs are not going to take risks on indigenous players.

If they haven't gone through private school scholarships like Cyril Rioi or Jy Simpkin and "proven" themselves, it'll be seen as too risky by lots of clubs

 

[sr36]

Blackkfellas have used the term "yarn" to describe talking, especially when its important for as long as I can remember and I'm over 50.

Strange article. The writer doesn't even seem to understand how it has been typically used. I grew up in a country area and it was just a conversation. You had a yarn.

 

[ferball]

You could say that it was Anglo based Australian culture or tradition to strap or cane students at School for minor behavioral issues.
We stopped doing that, not all that long ago, probably more recent than the stolen generation.

But slashing necks is ok because tradition.

So someone has made an unfounded allegation with political connotations (seemingly political violence at the direction of an elder) and you've jumped on to assume its true because it fits your stereotypes of indigenous people?

Even if it is true you don't know that. No doubt you're critical of the people accusing Clarko and Fagan and especially those jumping on after reading the article but you're doing exactly the same thing.

 

[ferball]

For those minimising the deaths of Aboriginals in custody through statistics please provide statistics for the abuse, beatings, emotional torture, physical punishment and for being belittled, demeaned and broken,

And for unreported murders altho these aren't as common as they were when I was young.

 

[sr36]

Well that depends on your definiton of wrongdoing doesn't it.

How culturally inappropriate are you?

I assume that you meant ignorant rather than inappropriate? It depends on the culture. I know a fair bit about a lot of Asian cultures, but am very ignorant about indigenous cultures.

 

[ferball]

There have to be parameters otherwise it just turns into a never ending yarn session

Maybe the best thing that can happen is the parties talking. Maybe it would inspire Clarkson and Fagan to offer something like apologies even if they never felt they should simply cos they understand the depth of the players and families pain. It could be an important healing thing for those people even if Clarkson and Fagan don't think they'd done anything wrong right now (or even after the yarn, it might not matter to them anymore.)