NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that particular allegation from an ex-partner and is yet to be supported by the actual player? Happy to be proven wrong.

Could well be, but my point is more, if you’re working for a newspaper wanting clicks, the following quotes would be dynamite and the reason this case blew up in the first place:

'Clarkson just leaned over me and demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child and partner,' he claimed.

'I was then manipulated and convinced to remove my SIM card from my phone so there was no further contact between my family and me.

'He told me to kill my unborn child.'

Rightly or wrongly, there wouldn’t be a newspaper editor in 2022 who wouldn’t run with that, or try and get Clarko’s side of the story.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

We do know what the players want. They’ve said it.

Tonight and yesterday.

An independent holistic look at racism in the afl. Not one club, but all clubs and seemingly most import the afl itself.

They’ll likely get that. And a whole bunch of money.

Agree, and probably a lot of heads rolling as well.

 

[triggering bro]

Amy's legal rep when interviewed by Whateley sounded very indecisive and unclear. It could be just his speaking patterns behind which a subtle mind plots and plans. But it didn't sound like it. He made a couple if misstatements. Will wait and see.

Sounded like he just got off the phone with Clarko's lawyer.

 

[the big lebowski]

Agree, and probably a lot of heads rolling as well.

The statement literally said they don’t want a witch hunt. They want change

 

[Osho]

Sounded like he just got off the phone with Clarko's lawyer.

ROAR!
Now that you mention it ... makes some sense.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I’d reckon the explosiveness of the allegations against Clarko:Hawks (forced abortions/ race element) is much worse and more likely to go viral than cases citing casual racism.

Yes the allegations in this case are far more severe than those in the Yorkshire case. Maybe this contributes to the lack of discussion in parliament or from MP's on the subject. It is easier for an MP to accuse a club of systemic (for want of a better word) casual racism than it is to accuse the 3 people of participating in specific severe events. It is more likely to go viral in Australia because it is the AFL. In the UK cricket is still a very white middle class sport and is very rarely on the front page of the papers.

 

[JGreezy]

I’ve been trying to explain the strategy of WHY the wouldn’t participate…. Unlike the barrackers saying “look, they aren’t participating, this proves they are lying”.

I unapologetically think they want to win. Do they know what that means? No, I don’t think anyone knows where this fallout could end, that’s the nature of the beast with these matters.

I get that most think this will all be swept under the carpet. I happen to have a counter argument that it won’t. It’s a forum, that’s fine.

I personally think Clarko can be cooked in multiple ways from here on in with this scandal as that is the way racism scandals go in 2022.

If they decide not to participate? I can see why and they could make it work.

If they do? Just as good

I don’t have any vested interest in Clarko coaching or not, more looking at how it is going to unfold. No one knows for sure, there’ll be plenty of twists and turns as these cases can be wildly unpredictable.

I don't think that much of it has much chance of being proven, even if it happened. At best it would be he said/she said, most likely. Or Hawthorn have evidence to disprove.

We were likely heading to some payouts, league-wide policy changes and public statements.

The players have some leverage right now. The AFL wants them to participate in the investigation to give it legitimacy. It seems that they are using that leverage to pre-emptively make sure that the policy changes meet their expectations. I applaud them for that. They want to make sure that they aren't token gestures before they get involved. Great move.

In return they will legitimise the AFLs investigation that probably won't lead to much of a result in terms of individual claims.

 

[Psicosis]

I’d reckon the explosiveness of the allegations against Clarko:Hawks (forced abortions/ race element) is much worse and more likely to go viral than cases citing casual racism.

Out of curiosity, why do you only mention Clarkson of the accused?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

The statement literally said they don’t want a witch hunt. They want change

I must have missed the part that said “we want systemic change but for everyone to keep their jobs.”

I know you support North and no doubt want Clarko to coach, but surely you can concede heads rolling would be a very big possibility from a scandal like this.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Out of curiosity, why do you only mention Clarkson of the accused?

Sorry about that, it’s purely because it’s easier on a phone to type Clarko than Clarko/Fagan and because there’s pretty much no Lions fans on here. I’ll type them both in the future.

 

[the big lebowski]

I must have missed the part that said “we want systemic change but for everyone to keep their jobs.”

I know you support North and no doubt want Clarko to coach, but surely you can concede heads rolling would be a very big possibility from a scandal like this.

lol of course it’s a possibility

It will be entirely dependent on the evidence they give. It will be decided in December by the panel and the afl.

Then it will be over one way or another and the more important (in the paraphrased words of all the accusers) review will take place

 

[NarklesHelmet]

lol of course it’s a possibility

It will be entirely dependent on the evidence they give. It will be decided in December by the panel and the afl.

Then it will be over one way or another and the more important (in the paraphrased words of all the accusers) review will take place

I agree, sorry, I’m not sure what the issue was.

If they get what they want from the review and the review upholds some of what was reported from the Egan/Jackson article it’s probable/possible that a lot of heads will roll.

That’s surely beyond question. These are explosive allegations.

 

[the big lebowski]

I agree, sorry, I’m not sure what the issue was.

If they get what they want from the review and the review upholds some of what was reported from the Egan/Jackson article it’s probable/possible that a lot of heads will roll.

That’s surely beyond question. These are explosive allegations.

If Clarkson told someone to get an abortion he won’t coach again.

If he didn’t have a reason for moving players etc he won’t coach again.

He will argue he didn’t and he did. As will fagan and Burt.

The panel will presumably get more info than what has been reported. Then they’ll make their decision.

Clarko, fagan and Burt will either be found guilty of cultural insensitivity and not get suspended. Or they will be charged with misconduct and unlikely to coach again.

I’d suggest there is a reason the accusers keep talking about “their” truth. They feel hard done by by the system at the very least. What happens to the coaches will come down to evidence. None of which we know yet.

Edit: this doesn’t even factor in a mediated outcome between the parties

 

[HairyO]

It is irrelevant what the panel members recommend. It is an AFL run investigation and they will do what they want. They have mistreated Aboriginals for decades. They may as well keep doing it

So the people you know are stooges. Got it.

 

[TerryWallet]

Well done to the courageous complainants for their stand to better the treatment of others who come after them. Out of a horrible reality, they have ALL played their part in bringing the pressure for needed change.

Well done to their representatives and well done to Phil Egan and Russell Jackson for being trusted enough for the complainants to confide in. The light that has been shone on this publicly, is the power that has driven it this far.

THE FULL OPEN LETTER

“You have asked us to participate in the AFL’s investigation into allegations of racism at the Hawthorn Football Club. We have reservations about that process and share many of the concerns expressed by Amy*. However, we also want to make sure our experiences will never be repeated and that is why we have taken our time to carefully consider our position.

“We do want to tell our truths to a panel of independent investigators in a culturally safe environment.

“But the issue of racism in the AFL cannot be dealt with by a narrowly targeted investigation on a club-by-club, or crisis-by-crisis, basis.

“That may protect the AFL’s image and reputation in the short term, but it does not address our concerns, which won’t go away with a limited investigation of Hawthorn.’

“We want the AFL to take a good hard look at itself and how it has dealt with racism in the past. Not because we want to trawl over a 100 years of neglect, or conduct a witch-hunt or to bring legal claims, but because we want the AFL to be a safer place for our children and all First Nations children who dream of playing AFL football.

“In our cultures the past shapes and determines our future.

“We ask as part of this process for the AFL to independently investigate how AFL policies, procedures and practices can be improved. We want to help educate AFL coaching staff, players and umpires about our cultures and our peoples and set KPI’s to annually test whether the AFL is doing better in relation to racism. For once and for all.

“Today we have decided to participate in the AFL Independent Investigation on the basis that the AFL is also committed to independently look at its own failings and promises to all First Nations families it will do better as a result. And we appreciate this will take more time to complete than a Hawthorn focused investigation.

“To the AFL clubs’ board of directors, tell the AFL not to sweep this crisis under the carpet as merely a Hawthorn problem. It’s not just a Hawthorn problem, just like it wasn’t just a Collingwood problem. Address the issue of racism in the AFL directly and purposively. The next crisis may be yours.

“To those First Nations players and their families who have previously been racially vilified and hurt by the AFL’s failures and silences, please lend your voices to our call to the AFL to do better. You inspire us. We stand shoulder to shoulder with you.”

 

[blackshadow]

It’s an interesting question: could only find quotes from state politicians at this stage.

My thought would be that they will wait until the main report drops.

Depending on the outcome, Amy’s lawyers will get the juiciest quotes, do some a/b testing, see which ones get the most reaction, and then run with it.

Once it went viral, that’s when a parliamentarian or two who’d ring up Gil and say “what the hell is going on? We need heads to roll.”

Amy’s done.

 

[mcnulty]

Well done to the courageous complainants for their stand to better the treatment of others who come after them. Out of a horrible reality, they have ALL played their part in bringing the pressure for needed change.

Well done to their representatives and well done to Phil Egan and Russell Jackson for being trusted enough for the complainants to confide in. The light that has been shone on this publicly, is the power that has driven it this far.

THE FULL OPEN LETTER

“You have asked us to participate in the AFL’s investigation into allegations of racism at the Hawthorn Football Club. We have reservations about that process and share many of the concerns expressed by Amy*. However, we also want to make sure our experiences will never be repeated and that is why we have taken our time to carefully consider our position.

“We do want to tell our truths to a panel of independent investigators in a culturally safe environment.

“But the issue of racism in the AFL cannot be dealt with by a narrowly targeted investigation on a club-by-club, or crisis-by-crisis, basis.

“That may protect the AFL’s image and reputation in the short term, but it does not address our concerns, which won’t go away with a limited investigation of Hawthorn.’

“We want the AFL to take a good hard look at itself and how it has dealt with racism in the past. Not because we want to trawl over a 100 years of neglect, or conduct a witch-hunt or to bring legal claims, but because we want the AFL to be a safer place for our children and all First Nations children who dream of playing AFL football.

“In our cultures the past shapes and determines our future.

“We ask as part of this process for the AFL to independently investigate how AFL policies, procedures and practices can be improved. We want to help educate AFL coaching staff, players and umpires about our cultures and our peoples and set KPI’s to annually test whether the AFL is doing better in relation to racism. For once and for all.

“Today we have decided to participate in the AFL Independent Investigation on the basis that the AFL is also committed to independently look at its own failings and promises to all First Nations families it will do better as a result. And we appreciate this will take more time to complete than a Hawthorn focused investigation.

“To the AFL clubs’ board of directors, tell the AFL not to sweep this crisis under the carpet as merely a Hawthorn problem. It’s not just a Hawthorn problem, just like it wasn’t just a Collingwood problem. Address the issue of racism in the AFL directly and purposively. The next crisis may be yours.

“To those First Nations players and their families who have previously been racially vilified and hurt by the AFL’s failures and silences, please lend your voices to our call to the AFL to do better. You inspire us. We stand shoulder to shoulder with you.”

“Don’t look over here. Look over THERE!!!!”

 

[NarklesHelmet]

If Clarkson told someone to get an abortion he won’t coach again.

If he didn’t have a reason for moving players etc he won’t coach again.

He will argue he didn’t and he did. As will fagan and Burt.

The panel will presumably get more info than what has been reported. Then they’ll make their decision.

Clarko, fagan and Burt will either be found guilty of cultural insensitivity and not get suspended. Or they will be charged with misconduct and unlikely to coach again.

I’d suggest there is a reason the accusers keep talking about “their” truth. They feel hard done by by the system at the very least. What happens to the coaches will come down to evidence. None of which we know yet.

Edit: this doesn’t even factor in a mediated outcome between the parties

Yep, spot on.

 

[Psicosis]

Sorry about that, it’s purely because it’s easier on a phone to type Clarko than Clarko/Fagan and because there’s pretty much no Lions fans on here. I’ll type them both in the future.

Appreciate it. Wouldn’t want to think your posting on this issue harbours any sort of underlying bias.

 

[HairyO]

Well done to the courageous complainants for their stand to better the treatment of others who come after them. Out of a horrible reality, they have ALL played their part in bringing the pressure for needed change.

Well done to their representatives and well done to Phil Egan and Russell Jackson for being trusted enough for the complainants to confide in. The light that has been shone on this publicly, is the power that has driven it this far.

THE FULL OPEN LETTER

“You have asked us to participate in the AFL’s investigation into allegations of racism at the Hawthorn Football Club. We have reservations about that process and share many of the concerns expressed by Amy*. However, we also want to make sure our experiences will never be repeated and that is why we have taken our time to carefully consider our position.

“We do want to tell our truths to a panel of independent investigators in a culturally safe environment.

“But the issue of racism in the AFL cannot be dealt with by a narrowly targeted investigation on a club-by-club, or crisis-by-crisis, basis.

“That may protect the AFL’s image and reputation in the short term, but it does not address our concerns, which won’t go away with a limited investigation of Hawthorn.’

“We want the AFL to take a good hard look at itself and how it has dealt with racism in the past. Not because we want to trawl over a 100 years of neglect, or conduct a witch-hunt or to bring legal claims, but because we want the AFL to be a safer place for our children and all First Nations children who dream of playing AFL football.

“In our cultures the past shapes and determines our future.

“We ask as part of this process for the AFL to independently investigate how AFL policies, procedures and practices can be improved. We want to help educate AFL coaching staff, players and umpires about our cultures and our peoples and set KPI’s to annually test whether the AFL is doing better in relation to racism. For once and for all.

“Today we have decided to participate in the AFL Independent Investigation on the basis that the AFL is also committed to independently look at its own failings and promises to all First Nations families it will do better as a result. And we appreciate this will take more time to complete than a Hawthorn focused investigation.

“To the AFL clubs’ board of directors, tell the AFL not to sweep this crisis under the carpet as merely a Hawthorn problem. It’s not just a Hawthorn problem, just like it wasn’t just a Collingwood problem. Address the issue of racism in the AFL directly and purposively. The next crisis may be yours.

“To those First Nations players and their families who have previously been racially vilified and hurt by the AFL’s failures and silences, please lend your voices to our call to the AFL to do better. You inspire us. We stand shoulder to shoulder with you.”

So take it to court or the HRC. Or stop playing the media and participate properly.

 

[South of the Yarra]

So the people you know are stooges. Got it.

Well, I only know two of them. Wouldn't you need 3?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Amy’s done.

Who knows honestly with these things; I’m not sure why so many think a nice bow will be tied around this, there’s still so many ways this could go.

Something like Amy going rogue with a Twitter account in the future could be even more embarrassing if it gained traction. No one knew things like #metoo would explode like it did.

Lots to play out still.

 

[ferball]

I’d reckon the explosiveness of the allegations against Clarko:Hawks (forced abortions/ race element) is much worse and more likely to go viral than cases citing casual racism.

WTF is casual racism?

 

[Chief]

WTF is casual racism?

Let me help you:

https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/casual-racism-faqs.pdf

 

[mcnulty]

Let me help you:

https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/casual-racism-faqs.pdf

Thanks for that chief. Its totally helpful to have it spelt out like that. I‘ll go to bed now pondering how I can avoid these diabolical pitfalls.