List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[stavro#4]

I'm just so sick of the excuses. We appointed Lyon and the rest of the footy dept newbies so we couldn't make excuses, but now they have arrived that's what we're doing. Not making finals this year would be a failure any way you slice it IMO. If we want to be truly elite then we develop the list and play finals at the same time. Sides like Geelong and Sydney have no issue with it.

Ross being brought in - wasn’t necessarily to elevate what we have now.

It was to elevate and build and that might mean binning what we have and bringing in those that can.

It’s about winning a flag not making a finals series.

That last line, is the reason we brought Ross in.

Whatever happens this season. The outcome is in direct response to that

 

[stavro#4]

Yeah i get

But if at years end he wants/needs to make wholesale changes the people that have been there for a while need to go

I love the club its part of my family but I'm F##king done with its ok lets wait for next year, because we will get to the end of next year and we will hear the same thing

Enough is enough just get it right and stop bullshitting supporters and if you're not up to the job move on

But isn’t your last line the reason they Brought Ross in?

We effectively said the footy department isn’t up to the elite standards.

Coach (Ratten) got the ass. New beefed up footy department behind an elite coach.

Let them cook now.

 

[George]

Ross being brought in - wasn’t necessarily to elevate what we have now.

It was to elevate and build and that might mean binning what we have and bringing in those that can.

It’s about winning a flag not making a finals series.

That last line, is the reason we brought Ross in.

Whatever happens this season. The outcome is in direct response to that

We can both play finals and develop and build the list. I don't think it's one or the other and there's examples of teams being capable of doing that, and so we should aim for the same.

 

[Mowman]

But isn’t your last line the reason they Brought Ross in?

We effectively said the footy department isn’t up to the elite standards.

Coach (Ratten) got the ass. New beefed up footy department behind an elite coach.

Let them cook now.

Then 2 more wins and 8th on the ladder should be our minimum

Nothing improves development and culture like winning

 

[stavro#4]

We can both play finals and develop and build the list. I don't think it's one or the other and there's examples of teams being capable of doing that, and so we should aim for the same.

I’m not saying it’s one or the other.

I’ve clearly said that whatever the outcome - it’s going to be pretty clear come September what we are and answer the last decade long question.

Ross coming in removes the question mark around quality development and coaching.

So then it becomes a question of are we good enough?

How good are we?

And then the problem statement is, is what we have good enough? Does it need more? How hard is it to provide that?

He's not selling the season so far. I've gone from can't wait to can't wait until it's over.

We only feel that way because of injuries. If Membrey and King were playing this weekend. We would be confident of a win

 

[Mowman]

But isn’t your last line the reason they Brought Ross in?

We effectively said the footy department isn’t up to the elite standards.

Coach (Ratten) got the ass. New beefed up footy department behind an elite coach.

Let them cook now.

Yet they still finished 10th with 11 wins
13 wins must be our target

 

[stavro#4]

Then 2 more wins and 8th on the ladder should be our minimum

Nothing improves development and culture like winning

I’m not disagreeing mate.

I’m saying that under Ross we might just learn that this list isn’t good enough.

 

[gringo2011]

The St Kilda of the past you might have been right, but I am confident our talent identification and player development is now 500% better than it was. You only have to see these kids train/playing to know they are our future.

I think it has too but it was so bad before you are coming off a low base. We are undoubtably the worst drafters in the last 20 years now. So little to show from so many years of drafting.

That said even the best clubs don't get every player right, especially late in the draft. If a guy like Hotton or Keeler make it it's a bonus because outside the first round your chances of becoming a 100 game AFL player must be about 20%.

 

[George]

I’m not saying it’s one or the other.

I’ve clearly said that whatever the outcome - it’s going to be pretty clear come September what we are and answer the last decade long question.

Ross coming in removes the question mark around quality development and coaching.

So then it becomes a question of are we good enough?

How good are we?

And then the problem statement is, is what we have good enough? Does it need more? How hard is it to provide that?


We only feel that way because of injuries. If Membrey and King were playing this weekend. We would be confident of a win

I just don't get it. I think we all can see where our deficiencies are. What do you think Ross will find out about this list that we all don't already know? Our current list is good enough for a finals berth and possibly winning one final. It's not a premiership list and the way we've rebuilt is historically wrong. We need to develop through the draft over the next few years. If we are elite, then we do all of this whilst continuously putting ourselves in positions to win a premiership.

 

[stavro#4]

I just don't get it. I think we all can see where our deficiencies are. What do you think Ross will find out about this list that we all don't already know? Our current list is good enough for a finals berth and possibly winning one final. It's not a premiership list and the way we've rebuilt is historically wrong. We need to develop through the draft over the next few years. If we are elite, then we do all of this whilst continuously putting ourselves in positions to win a premiership.

Go through the list and tell me how many players have reached their ceilings and tell me what their ceilings are

 

[gringo2011]

But isn’t your last line the reason they Brought Ross in?

We effectively said the footy department isn’t up to the elite standards.

Coach (Ratten) got the ass. New beefed up footy department behind an elite coach.

Let them cook now.

We have no choice but Lyon probably wasn't the guy first picked to rebuild the list. He'd be my choice to take over the side ready to roll like Carlton is. I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping like **** for a miracle. I think with a full list we're a finals side and there I enough organic growth and inconsistency for ironing out, to suggest that there are more gears to go to with this list.

Still don't like letting them off with a free rein. He should be trying to build while we challenge not given the keys to the cupboard.

 

[Miha]

TANK TANK TANK. We should be given priority picks every year until we win a flag

 

[gringo2011]

Go through the list and tell me how many players have reached their ceilings and tell me what their ceilings are

See that I get, I think about half the list has shown enough to think there is severe underachievement. Also a heap of kids and lost games through injury, poor management and coaching. The club should be pumping us up for a season that could be anything, not hosing down expectation. You get a coach like Mitchell out selling the dream coming from miles behind and Hawks fans are happy to go watch their kids build towards the dream.

We are selling a year of watching a bunch of old guys getting experimental while they devise a strategy for our banged up list that they aren't even sure that they're into.

 

[George]

Go through the list and tell me how many players have reached their ceilings and tell me what their ceilings are

Sure. I think the following players can either become AA or are already AA - need to keep a hold of;

Coffield
Gresham
Nas
Steele
Clark
King
Windhager
Marshall
Higgins
Phillipou
Battle
Sinclair
Wilkie

The following should be traded/delisted and replaced with youth through the draft;
Jones
Crouch
Ross
Cordy
Campbell

Keep the new rookies on board for a few years as nobody knows what they are capable of yet.

The others are all replaceable IMO - either been in the system too long and haven't shown enough, or obviously not part of the next premiership side.

I don't know what else we are waiting on Ross to find out about us.

 

[gringo2011]

Sure. I think the following players can either become AA or are already AA - need to keep a hold of;

Coffield
Gresham
Nas
Steele
Clark
King
Windhager
Marshall
Higgins
Phillipou
Battle
Sinclair
Wilkie

The following should be traded/delisted and replaced with youth through the draft;
Jones
Crouch
Ross
Cordy
Campbell

The others are all replaceable IMO - either been in the system too long and haven't shown enough, or obviously not part of the next premiership side.

I don't know what else we are waiting on Ross to find out about us.

Tough on Crouch. I reckon he was fantastic last year. Played a better season than Steele IMO even before the injury. Ross probably gets to stay just for being one of the few old guys that have spent his career at the club.

 

[George]

Tough on Crouch. I reckon he was fantastic last year. Played a better season than Steele IMO even before the injury. Ross probably gets to stay just for being one of the few old guys that have spent his career at the club.

Tsk tsk. Excuses, excuses old mate

 

[Mowman]

Sure. I think the following players can either become AA or are already AA - need to keep a hold of;

Coffield
Gresham
Nas
Steele
Clark
King
Windhager
Marshall
Higgins
Phillipou
Battle
Sinclair
Wilkie

The following should be traded/delisted and replaced with youth through the draft;
Jones
Crouch
Ross
Cordy
Campbell

Keep the new rookies on board for a few years as nobody knows what they are capable of yet.

The others are all replaceable IMO - either been in the system too long and haven't shown enough, or obviously not part of the next premiership side.

I don't know what else we are waiting on Ross to find out about us.

Can't agree with Crouch

5th in the B&F last year and will have a better year this year

Looking trim and in ripping nick, AA squad this year

 

[George]

Can't agree with Crouch

5th in the B&F last year and will have a better year this year

Looking trim and in ripping nick, AA squad this year

It's just his age that tips him over the edge for me. Pretty pleased that that's the only issue, I'll forward what I've put together onto Ross to save us all some time.

 

[stavro#4]

Sure. I think the following players can either become AA or are already AA - need to keep a hold of;

Coffield
Gresham
Nas
Steele
Clark
King
Windhager
Marshall
Higgins
Phillipou
Battle
Sinclair
Wilkie

The following should be traded/delisted and replaced with youth through the draft;
Jones
Crouch
Ross
Cordy
Campbell

The others are all replaceable IMO - either been in the system too long and haven't shown enough, or obviously not part of the next premiership side.

I don't know what else we are waiting on Ross to find out about us.

Sure … now if I take your list AA.

Immediately, we only have 2 (Steele + Sincs)

2 more who could be on the cusp behind a full season (King + Marshall)

3 who have had significant injuries in the last 12-24 months that make it incredibly hard to pin point what they are or their ceiling (Clark Coffield Gresh)

That leaves 6 that you believe to be AA potential players who haven’t had significant set backs.

So immediately - come seasons end, you would hope 1-5 of those have elevated or we could argue they just aren’t that level.

That’s the point of Ross.

You can’t say - but x player had poor development Or bad coaching.

Ross is effectively one of the best coaches in the last 20 years.

So the buck stops with the player now. Because the standards can’t be compromised - they can’t deflect.

So if it’s multiple players not living up to expectations That then means we recruited poorly.

Which is fine in terms of the fact the club took action - we gutted the recruiting department. Added SOS Gubby Toce in the last few years.

Do you see where I am going with this?

This was the point of the review. Now you need to let them cook. Which is season 2023.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yet they still finished 10th with 11 wins
13 wins must be our target

It absolutely should have been the expectation - however, with the injuries we are starting the season with, I’m just not sure that’s realistic anymore.

 

[George]

Sure … now if I take your list AA.

Immediately, we only have 2 (Steele + Sincs)

2 more who could be on the cusp behind a full season (King + Marshall)

3 who have had significant injuries in the last 12-24 months that make it incredibly hard to pin point what they are or their ceiling (Clark Coffield Gresh)

That leaves 6 that you believe to be AA potential players who haven’t had significant set backs.

So immediately - come seasons end, you would hope 1-5 of those have elevated or we could argue they just aren’t that level.

That’s the point of Ross.

You can’t say - but x player had poor development Or bad coaching.

Ross is effectively one of the best coaches in the last 20 years.

So the buck stops with the player now. Because the standards can’t be compromised - they can’t deflect.

So if it’s multiple players not living up to expectations That then means we recruited poorly.

Which is fine in terms of the fact the club took action - we gutted the recruiting department. Added SOS Gubby Toce in the last few years.

Do you see where I am going with this?

This was the point of the review. Now you need to let them cook. Which is season 2023.

I agree with all that, what I don't like is the narrative coming from the club that is basically prepping us to expect a slide this year. We shouldn't have this mindset. We should be expecting to play finals whilst developing the list. It doesn't seem to me like we think those two things can be done at the same time.

I also think a player not reaching his ceiling is more on the player than the coach anyway, but that's a discussion for another time. You look at players on our list who are incredibly driven vs those who aren't and to me that's the responsibility of the player. If you need to be coddled you aren't good enough to begin with. It's a mindset to be great.

 

[sammm]

dmac 14 calf injuries over 2 years i think he said

after reading that, i think Dmac will be gone at the end of this year.

 

[stavro#4]

I agree with all that, what I don't like is the narrative coming from the club that is basically prepping us to expect a slide this year. We shouldn't have this mindset. We should be expecting to play finals whilst developing the list. It doesn't seem to me like we think those two things can be done at the same time.

The players are expecting to make finals.

They are going out to compete and not make numbers.

There is an element to all this that shows us prior history under RTB that it takes 12 months to embed what he is demanding.

But he also needs the cattle.

We are going to find out what cattle we have

 

[George]

The players are expecting to make finals.

They are going out to compete and not make numbers.

There is an element to all this that shows us prior history under RTB that it takes 12 months to embed what he is demanding.

But he also needs the cattle.

We are going to find out what cattle we have

Yep I don't doubt that either. Ross speaks of possibility mindset but then says this is a year of exploration. The angle that the club are taking in the leadup to this season is that it's a rebuilding year, but that absolutely shouldn't be the case and the hope personally is that internally they are hellbent on improving the list but also steadfast in the want to make finals, as we are good enough to do so.

 

[stavro#4]

Yep I don't doubt that either. Ross speaks of possibility mindset but then says this is a year of exploration. The angle that the club are taking in the leadup to this season is that it's a rebuilding year, but that absolutely shouldn't be the case and the hope personally is that internally they are hellbent on improving the list but also steadfast in the want to make finals, as we are good enough to do so.

But they go hand in hand.

Are they not exploring what they have whilst attempting to make finals?

It isn’t just one way.

Again, I’ve always said my expectation is that as a member/supporter I will have clarity about my football club in September 2023.

If we are potential contenders now or next year. We make finals regardless of injuries.

If we are a finals side (6-8). The injuries probably stop us making them.

If we are the 9-12 best side. The injuries send us towards a top 3-5 pick.