Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?

[Noidnadroj]

You caught me out supplying career averages of what the players actually did over their whole careers.

Why don't you correct my grave deception then and supply the averages for each player from the year in which they turned 22 to the year in which they turned 30....

People like to insert stats, votes and awards that didn’t happen, but ‘might’ve’ happened…. and also remove stats and performances that DID happen, but they wish didn’t happen - so they get removed. So we get left with stats, votes, awards and analysis of non-Richmond players that take in only ages 23-30yo when they were 100% fully fit and playing their career best football.

That’s what paints the most accurate picture of a career …. remove the years 1-4 and 12-16 and hey presto …. What a set of numbers !!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[STPer18]

Scarlett would never have let a player of the standard of Mason Cox carve his team up in a Preliminary Final the way Rance allowed him to in 2018.

Yeah well that guy who looked exactly like Rance wasn't actually Rance, so yeah!

View attachment 1568173-83b8cf7f6b4fa3735d807e020a63e855.mp4

 

[KissKiss]

The mid/forward discussion would be a very interesting one.

Johnson
Chapman
Greene
Akermanis
R. Gray
Brad Johnson
De Goey

And I guess you'd have to throw Martin in there to make up the numbers.

Its tough when you have Martin and Danger who played there a bunch but how do you weigh the midfield time versus the forward time

 

[Fadge]

Its tough when you have Martin and Danger who played there a bunch but how do you weigh the midfield time versus the forward time

Good point, forgot Danger. He's kicked more than enough goals to be considered a mid/forward.

 

[Outtatym]

Ben Mckay

32

Ben Mckay

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.7

4star

MG

77.2

1star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

2star

MG

88.5

2star

D

7.0

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

67.8

1star

 

[Mr Meow]

You caught me out supplying career averages of what the players actually did over their whole careers.

Why don't you correct my grave deception then and supply the averages for each player from the year in which they turned 22 to the year in which they turned 30....

Scarlett was more of a defensive anchor on the last line compared to Rance (a hybrid full back/CHB/free interceptor). Evidenced by Rance going at 4+ rebound 50s per game in just one season compared to Scarlett's 5, despite Geelong conceding fewer inside 50s than Richmond in most of their seasons. The fact that Scarlett still went pretty close to Rance for disposals per game is surprising given his deeper lying position and more accountable role in defences that saw less of the ball.

Scarlett still with the edge in inside 50s, goal assists and even in his last (mediocre) season bettered Rance's career score involvement average, so I'd love to have seen peak Scarlett's numbers for that one. Setting up attacks on defensive transition was his specialty and he was arguably the key arcitect for Geelong's "down the highway" counter attacks.

In that final 2012 season (one of Scarlett's worst) he still had a better kicking efficiency and more metres gained than Rance's career average, who retired before his veteran years allowed averages to drop.

Rance had over 60% more clangers per game. Scarlett was a better and more damaging ball user.

Most people recognise Scarlett as the more able 1v1 defender.

Scarlett also lasted the distance, playing an extra 84 games and was still an AA selectee in his penultimate season. Better for longer.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Stat Averages and total awards from the year the player turned 22 to the year he turned 30. This captures the 9 prime seasons during which all 3 players have played.

Scarlett 201 matches, Rance 175 matches, McGovern 163 matches

Disposals: Rance 17.0, Scarlett 15.9, McGovern 14.9

Contested possessions: Rance 6.8, McGovern 6.6, Scarlett 4.2

Contested Marks: McGovern 2.1, Rance 1.0, Scarlett 0.8

1%ers: Rance 8.4, McGovern 5.9, Scarlett 3.7

Tackles: Rance 2.3, Scarlett 1.5, McGovern 1.4

Brownlow Votes: Rance 0.19 per game, Scarlett 0.15 per game, McGovern 0.11 per game,

Coaches Votes: Rance 1.5 per game, McGovern 1.18, Scarlett 1.16(2006-2009 only)

Player rating: McGovern 12.5, Rance 12.4(23yo-30yo) Scarlett N/A

Best & Fairest: Rance 1, Scarlett 1, McGovern -(one close second)

AA selections: Scarlett 5, Rance 5, McGovern 4


So me surreptitiously sneaking 9 McGovern games and 70 odd Scarlett games after aged 30 into the original sample did precisely nothing to advance Rance's cause.

If we make the strictly fair isolation of all their primes years aged 22-30 as in this post here, we can see this advances Rance's cause v both McGovern and Scarlett.

Whatever way you look at it, even allowing for Scarlett having a clanger rate of 1.6 v McGovern 1.8 v Rance 2.5, Scarlett is just nowhere near the others either for contests or 1%ers.

McGovern averages 4.8 spoils and 7.5 pressure acts. Rance averages 7.2 spoils and 8.1 pressure acts. These stats are only available for Scarlett's final season 2012, but he averaged 3.9 spoils and 8.6 pressure acts.

On the whole, Scarlett is nowhere even close to the other pair for any combination of contested possession/contested marks/spoils/tackles & 1%ers.

Coaches votes Rance is miles above the other pair, and Scarlett is last.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Scarlett was like the best parts of glass and McGovern combined. Not as good as a stopper as glass not as good as an intercept mark as gov but did everything to a extremely high level

Just quietly, the Eagles have been blessed with a string of high quality key backs this century. Jakovich and McIntosh, Glass, McKenzie, McGovern and Barrass. All top tier imo

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No thanks, because my analysis goes broader than analysis by stats sheets.

Would love to know exactly what your "analysis" includes to get you to a position of Scarlett being ahead of Rance.

Rance through the years you wanted isolated only leads him in disposals comfortably, contested possessions by miles, contested marks comfortably, tackles by miles, spoils by miles, 1%ers by miles, coaches votes by miles, Brownlow votes comfortably.

In fact clangers is the only measure I can find where Scarlett is better than Rance. But he would be, he hardly ever had to win a ball in a contest.

But Fadge Ratings must have picked up something across their respective careers. So come on Fadge, the suspense is killing us. What exactly is it that makes Scarlett better than Rance(and McGovern?) Or don't you believe Scarlett is better than either or both of them?

 

[Mr Meow]

Would love to know exactly what your "analysis" includes to get you to a position of Scarlett being ahead of Rance.

Rance through the years you wanted isolated only leads him in disposals comfortably, contested possessions by miles, contested marks comfortably, tackles by miles, spoils by miles, 1%ers by miles, coaches votes by miles, Brownlow votes comfortably.

In fact clangers is the only measure I can find where Scarlett is better than Rance. But he would be, he hardly ever had to win a ball in a contest.

But Fadge Ratings must have picked up something across their respective careers. So come on Fadge, the suspense is killing us. What exactly is it that makes Scarlett better than Rance(and McGovern?) Or don't you believe Scarlett is better than either or both of them?

One extra disposal per game for an interceptor vs a 1v1 full back counting as "comfortably" more says it all for your analytic skills.

 

[CrowToon]

No thanks, because my analysis goes broader than analysis by stats sheets.

Your analysis doesn't go any deeper than whatever Collingwood is winning at.

 

[CrowToon]

I think it has to be Scarlett. Was consistently great.

McGovern I think had the best claim to displacing him but I think his late career will temper debate. At least until some years pass and people think back on him in totality.

Rance is about as overrated as you get. Supported by the real heroes down there in defence as he pranced about as he pleased. Proof in the pudding as his absence didn't stop the flow of premierships.

 

[RonnieRaven]

Its tough when you have Martin and Danger who played there a bunch but how do you weigh the midfield time versus the forward time

I haven’t looked at any stats but 30+ goals and 20+disposal ave in a season is ideal for a mid forward

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think it has to be Scarlett. Was consistently great.

McGovern I think had the best claim to displacing him but I think his late career will temper debate. At least until some years pass and people think back on him in totality.

Rance is about as overrated as you get. Supported by the real heroes down there in defence as he pranced about as he pleased. Proof in the pudding as his absence didn't stop the flow of premierships.

A few points about Rance.

When he finished, Tom Lynch entered. They never played in a final together. So it is not like Rance left, the rest of the team stayed the same, and nobody noticed any difference. In any event, by this measure you must think Gary Ablett Jnr and Lance Franklin are over-rated. And also Crows made a Grand Final 2 years after Dangerfield departed, so you must think he is also over-rated.

Also when you say he pranced around doing as he pleased, you must mean winning contested possessions, effecting spoils, tackling, and applying pressure right? Because these were all things he did much better than Scarlett, who was an uncontested beast whose team-mates fed him the ball even if it meant going backwards or side ways. But you clearly think that is under-rated and winning contests is over-rated in football. Or do I somehow have that wrong?

 

[Outtatym]

A few points about Rance.

When he finished, Tom Lynch entered. They never played in a final together. So it is not like Rance left, the rest of the team stayed the same, and nobody noticed any difference. In any event, by this measure you must think Gary Ablett Jnr and Lance Franklin are over-rated. And also Crows made a Grand Final 2 years after Dangerfield departed, so you must think he is also over-rated.

Also when you say he pranced around doing as he pleased, you must mean winning contested possessions, effecting spoils, tackling, and applying pressure right? Because these were all things he did much better than Scarlett, who was an uncontested beast whose team-mates fed him the ball even if it meant going backwards or side ways. But you clearly think that is under-rated and winning contests is over-rated in football. Or do I somehow have that wrong?

Not sure why you are bringing up Lynch as he plays at the other end of the ground?

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Scarlett is far enough ahead of Rance that it doesn’t require debate.

And given it’s a Geelong player vs a Richmond player, I’m confident no debate will occur.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not sure why you are bringing up Lynch as he plays at the other end of the ground?

Lynch is a marquee player, hugely important to Richmond's whole team performance since his arrival. I looked at this once before and from memory when Lynch plays compared to when he does not play is about a 3 goal scoreboard difference. But the bit people wouldn't understand so readily is most of that difference comes from opposition teams being less accurate in front of goal when Lynch plays compared to when he doesn't play. And this is most likely down to the different defensive structure Richmond are able to use when Lynch plays. Broadly though:

With Lynch Richmond have had 53 wins, 3 draws, 29 losses

Without Lynch from his 2019 arrival Richmond have had 13 wins 1 draw 14 losses.


So when Rance played in a Premiership team Richmond had Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Prestia as the marquee players.

When Rance didn't play in those finals 2019-20, Richmond had Riewoldt, Lynch, Cotchin, Martin, Prestia as the marquee players.


In other words there were still 5 marquee level players within the team. The addition of Lynch without a doubt helped Richmond's team defence which took a lot of pressure off our remaining defenders after Rance went down. Our defence stood up brilliantly, but this does not mean Rance was over-rated. The whole team had improved and mastered its defensive structures by the time he went down.

In short, comparing Richmond's performance with and without Rance in the dynasty era is not comparing apples with apples.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah well that guy who looked exactly like Rance wasn't actually Rance, so yeah!

View attachment 1882116

Rance had gastro...

Rance was chopping out for Astbury...

It wasn't Rance, it was an imposter who looked like him and was wearing his jumper...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Scarlett is far enough ahead of Rance that it doesn’t require debate.

And given it’s a Geelong player vs a Richmond player, I’m confident no debate will occur.

Scarlett is definitely ahead of Rance for uncontested possessions, I will give you that. He was brilliant at running out wide with his hand in the air the Scarlett Pimpernel.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Rance had gastro...

Rance was chopping out for Astbury...

It wasn't Rance, it was an imposter who looked like him and was wearing his jumper...

How about Rance didn't have the answers that night.

Now you only have 199 other Rance matches to explain away Fadge. You know, the other 99.5% of his career, outside of that fateful night in 2018 when he had 20 disposals, 7 contested possessions, 2 tackles, 3 score involvements and rated 14.2, which is more than tidy for a key defender.

Start explaining....

 

[Fadge]

How about Rance didn't have the answers that night.

Now you only have 199 other Rance matches to explain away Fadge. You know, the other 99.5% of his career.

Start explaining....

Hang on....

So in your world, performances in finals are the be all and end all, unless it doesn't suit your narrative, then you want to start considering 'meaningless qualifying matches'?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Hang on....

So in your world, performances in finals are the be all and end all, unless it doesn't suit your narrative, then you want to start considering 'meaningless qualifying matches'?

Well you hang on then.

Now in your world a couple of contests going wrong in 1 of 8 finals in your 200 game career means you can't play.

Wow, that is new from you Fadge.

 

[Fadge]

Well you hang on then.

Now in your world a couple of contests going wrong in 1 of 8 finals in your 200 game career means you can't play.

Wow, that is new from you Fadge.

I've never said Rance couldn't play.

He's being compared amongst the best 3 backmen since the turn of the century.

His poor performance in a Preliminary Final against a C Grader surely has to come into consideration, right?

After all, you've spent the last two years waxing lyrical about finals performances defining players' careers...

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Scarlett for me. The best over the longest period of time.
Rance was dynamite though in his peak.
Then the Two Coasters were reliable, good, and shut out some stars.

At their absolute peak McGovern was the best though if we're talking about ceiling. His was the highest. That 2018 Granny, my ****en god. Don't rest on that after the siren goal that year either too at Port Adelaide. Gee that club still must have recurring nightmares about the Weagles.

2017 - Shuey after the siren of extra time in an Elimination Final.
2018 - Pre season Jetta nails them at the end with about 40 seconds left.
2018 - 5 goals down at half time and their full back nails a goal to win them the game after the siren again. At Port Adelaide.

Lol. Sorry. I couldn't help but laugh. ( hey we're victims too of Governer )

Now I can laugh about it though. 2023 laid those demons to rest.

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah well that guy who looked exactly like Rance wasn't actually Rance, so yeah!

View attachment 1882116

It certainly looked like Rance being lead to the ball, outmarked repeatedly and then complaining to anyone and everyone.

But he had 20 disposals so is a star defender.