USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[IlovethePies]

its not happening in your lifetime

How do you know?
Do you have a crystal ball?

 

[Magruder]

(1) If you consider ridiculing Trotsky's assassination as "humour", then your sense of humour is way off.

(2) Glad you posted this because it is the clearest expression of why you and I will ultimately always disagree on issues of fundamental importance.

You belong to the idealist camp of philosophy. For you, the opinions of the individual, his/her thoughts, ideas, preferences determine reality. When taken to its extremes, (as it is nowadays in postmodernist philosophy) it leads to the conclusion that there is no objective truth, every person has his/her own unique narrative which is "their truth", just as valid as any other individual's "personal story/truth".
This philosophical position leads to the destruction of any attachment to scientific thought, because the aim of scientific thought is to cognise reality objectively, independently of any individual's impressions or opinions.

On the contrary, I am a materialist, a dialectical materialist. My starting point is that matter is primary, the physical world is primary and our thoughts are an expression within our brains (which also consist of matter) of reality. What we perceive though and think are only a first approximation of an ever changing reality, and scientific concepts and thoughts are required to achieve a better approximation

Therefore, objective truth exists, independently of what one or another observer might think.

Hence, the tendencies of US capitalism towards fascism, extreme social inequality and the expansion of war are objective, regardless of whether anyone thinks of them as interesting, depressing etc

And the means of preventing the descent into barbarism is also present, in the current situation, in objective material reality. It lies in international working class and the fight to establish its political independence so that it can organise a struggle in its own class interests across the entire world.

In your view, does not the Kantian imperative, as applied to moral action, at least partly reconcile the existence of objective reality with individual agency and perception of it?

 

[IlovethePies]

Capital always gets what it wants

No it doesn't. Have you heard of October 1917?

 

[JB1975]

Well, if you belong to the materialist school of analysis, then you would not claim that objective analysis of the future is impossible.

You definitely cannot predict with certainty what will happen in the future. There is no crystal ball.

However, based on the current tendencies of the class struggle, and the political programs of the parties involved, one can base one place one's own actions in accordance with the general trajectory of events, and in this way at a certain point impact them.

This is what the Bolshevik party did in 1917. They could not predict the future after the Provisional Government came to power in 1917, but they understood that the ongoing war against Germany, and the inevitable collapse of social conditions would create the situation and the opportunity for a steeled political party that accurately articulated the interests of the working class to win its leadership, and behind that, win the loyalty of the peasantry as well.

But it could only occur if that party accurately cognised reality, and could from there anticipate the trajectory of future events so that it could intervene at a decisive moment and determine the course of history.

If it were impossible to analyse the tendency of events into the future, the Russian Revolution would never have occurred.

I do have a materialist perspective.

The idea of objective analysis of any event is problematic. To describe yourself as a materialist is to emphasise the influence of some factors over others: that is, it's a framework through which to observe phenomena.

Hardly science.

People use various tools with which to understand things, or to grasp at the future, and none of it is objective.

This discussion bores others. Let's move past it.

 

[Blue1980]

Can't see any indications Harris won't win decisively? That's rather disingenuous.

All will be revealed soon-ish. Maybe, probably.

But any type of Harris win will be followed by 2-3 months of god knows what from Trump and the republicans.

 

[Dazzler9]

Has what Trump done or said ever really affected him? The best pollster in 2020 has Trump up in all swing states

We'll soon find out.

 

[Dazzler9]

All will be revealed soon-ish. Maybe, probably.

But any type of Harris win will be followed by 2-3 months of god knows what from Trump and the republicans.

That's the bit I'm most looking forward to !

 

[faible]

No it doesn't. Have you heard of October 1917?

An event over 100 years ago, before the technology we have today was even imagined to exist.

 

[Crankyhawk]

120 Democrats. Hillary Clinton delivered a 17-minute speech to local party members, many of whom were poised to campaign for Kamala Harris later in the day.

That tweet is a little bit misleading as I don't believe it was meant to be a big crowd.

agree. Room seemed not designed to be more than 200 - 250

 

[Blue1980]

An account seriously called Masculine Based? Without irony?

 

[Royces Hart]

agree. Room seemed not designed to be more than 200 - 250

Trump could easily have gotten 30,000 in there.

 

[Crankyhawk]

How do you know?
Do you have a crystal ball?

yep. The masses are zombified by social media. there will be no uprising.

 

[carltonchelsea]

What are his mental health issues?

Thought it would be fairly obvious, name another presidential candidate that has simulated fellatio at a rally?

 

[IlovethePies]

In your view, does not the Kantian imperative, as applied to moral action, at least partly reconcile the existence of objective reality with individual agency and perception of it?

Kant was part of the idealist school (but primarily Hegel) who influenced Marx's philosophical conceptions. In answer to your question though, my answer is a categorical no!! This is what Marx himself wrote:

the categorical imperative to overthrow all conditions in which man is a debased, enslaved, neglected [and] contemptible being'

And Marx then elaborated through the three fundamental components of Marxism (dialectical meterialist philosophy, English political economy and his discovery of the class struggle as the driving force of history ) how the liberation of mankind from class oppression would occur. Within capitalist society itself would grow and develop the very social force that would be compelled, for its own survival, to abolish capitalism, ie the proletariat.

If one adopts the position of dialectical materialism, there is absolutely no need to "reconcile" the existence of objective reality with an individual's perception of it. The individual's perception of reality psychologically occurs through his/her senses, all composed of matter, and is processed in the brain, likewise composed of matter. Consciousness is the highest form of matter in motion.

 

[big_e]

That skit will work even better with the amount of times Vance changes his name.

Did you know he only started calling himself JD after he saw it on Scrubs?

 

[Blue1980]

That's the bit I'm most looking forward to !

It could be anything from comical to terrifying (and everything in between). Lets hope only the former and none of the later.

 

[IlovethePies]

An event over 100 years ago, before the technology we have today was even imagined to exist.

The technology that exists today has strengthened the hand of revolutionary forces.

 

[IlovethePies]

yep. The masses are zombified by social media. there will be no uprising.

You overestimate social media, and underestimate the masses.

 

[zumahawk]

Thought it would be fairly obvious, name another presidential candidate that has simulated fellatio at a rally?

Mind boggling isn't it. What normal person votes for that man? Last time I check sound leadership is not simulating oral sex near a microphone. Embarrassing.

 

[IlovethePies]

Mind boggling isn't it. What normal person votes for that man? Last time I check sound leadership is not simulating oral sex near a microphone. Embarrassing.

I don't think Trump claims to represent "sound leadership"
He is not a "normal" capitalist politician.
He is not based on parliamentary methods.
He is based on the fascist playbook, and the methods of civil war.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Gross

 

[Crankyhawk]

You overestimate social media, and underestimate the masses.

THe masses are dumber than ever, and follow the cashed up influencers who are working to keep the status quo.

 

[OneGreatClub]

That's the bit I'm most looking forward to !

I’m looking forward to the court cases resuming, Trump, Musk and the rest of them.

 

[QuietB]

Gross

I’m happy if he doesn’t come back

 

[QuietB]

You overestimate social media, and underestimate the masses.

That is genuinely funny

The masses in Australia are currently obsessed with Albo getting Qantas upgrades and of course their continued and never ending obsession over all things Dan Andrew’s.

The ease with which the elite can manipulate the masses is frightening.