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Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
- Start date
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"Form" player
Having a good month in August isn't more important than having a good month in June.
2017 was the only season where Dusty was judged the best player by coaches and umpires, and reflected in your precious player ratings.
Outside of that he had a couple of top 10 years, but then fell away to a top50 player.
On average Dusty's hot form starts around the start of June each year for 6 years friend, but you may have missed that.
Just to be clear from when he got serious on average at the start of June in each of those 6 seasons he played 78 home & away games and 13 finals. He averaged 1.55 votes per match over those 91 games on a 3-2-1 basis.
That actually went on for 6 consecutive seasons where he has more or less finished each season as the form player in the AFL, judged over a period of 13 home & away matches on average + finals.
Your last comment about it was foolish so let's just leave that on record.
We can now see why you are called doppleganger. Thre are two of you. One who mocks others for quoting player ratings....and the other who routinely quotes player ratings.
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- Sep 15, 2011
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That’s a funny way of saying he was a pretty average H&A player.
That is pumping up Pendles.
Coming 2nd to a red hot Dane Swan (and actually beating him when Swan won a brownlow in 2011) is again highlighting how good Pendles was fecking 15 years ago.
Be good if he was really impactful for more than 4 full seasons and a few finals series.
Yeah 5 BnFs is getting up in best ever clubman territory. The additional 9 podiums elevates him.
2 BnFs fair way off guys like KB and Dyer.
5 to KB (3 in premierships) daylight to Dusty
I am more fond of MRs player ratings, they give impact, and they note only 4 elite seasons.
Don't you love the way these guys while pulling their hair out, scream at you that they are completely cool about Richmond & Dusty demolishing their team in 3 finals within 4 years ...
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Show us all the other players who have done it then if it is so easy to do....
Pointing that he is inconsistent and has a flat bit and then hot streaks points to why his player ratings are nothing special and he has only won 2 BnFs.
But yes, the MR approach is to ignore the full picture and just isolate the good bits.
- Feb 27, 2011
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Basically coasted through the H&A season to then be the hero in finals. Team had him on his shoulders for most of the year then had the fuel tickets to go nuts in september.
Yep, it all adds up. Ultimate figjam.
Your parroting of player ratings has converted me.We can now see why you are called doppleganger. Thre are two of you. One who mocks others for quoting player ratings....and the other who routinely quotes player ratings.
Reckon they nail it
Dusty grouped alongside a great like Selwood, just below Kennedy, Gawn and Sloane.
Selwood career avg of 14.32
Dusty career avg of 14.35
Sloane career avg of 14.51
Josh Kennedy (Sydney) avg of 14.52
Max Gawn avg of 14.60
Clayton Oliver avg of 14.82
Fyfe avg of 14.82
Pendles avg 15.32
NicNat avg 15.84
Bont avg 16.45
Danger career avg of 16.55
GAJ career avg 17.00 (GOAT)
A few steps below greats and GAJ stands alone as the GOAT. Dusty only had 1 season better than GAJ career average!!
Especially in 2019 when it was Prestia, Cotch and Edwards doing the heavy lifting in the middle.
Dusty avg 1 tackle and 9 pressure acts in the 2019 finals.
Prestia avg 6 tackles and 27 pressure acts.
Might be a bit easier to impact the scoreboard when only working one way.
But according to how Noid assessed the GF he was rubbish.
Neale only had 1 combined goal and assist in the GF, his scoreboard impact was down 33% from H&A figures.
Disregard that Neale had most disposals, CPs, i50s, clearances and score launches for the Lions. His scoreboard impact was down 33%
Dusty also played in the same team as a Brownlow Medallist, though in Dusty's case it was a Brownlow Medallist who also won the Coaches MVP.
You also don't seem to understand the effect of positions/roles on player ratings and what is considered elite. Dusty in most seasons was categorised as a mid-forward or general forward.
The top mid-forward in the AFL has rated:
2024 12.03
2023 15.08(Bolton, 2nd top 12.67)
2022 14.41(Bolton, 2nd top 13.28)
2021 17.22 (Martin 2nd top 16.62)
2020 14.38(x 1.25 = 17.97) - Martin
2019 16.77 Martin
2018 & prior it is not broken down positionally.
There are 40 odd players defined as mid-forwards each season. The top 2 or 3 are normally absolutely seen as elite. Martin has 3 of the top 4 season ratings for a mid-forward, 2019-2020-2021. That is totally elite.
The top general forward in the AFL has rated:
2024 16.64(the cutoff for elite around 11.7)
2023 14.25(elite cutoff 11.3) Dusty 2nd highest rated forward 13.91
2022 12.77(elite cutoff 10.9)
2021 13.92(elite cutoff 10.8)
2020 11.02 x 1.25 = 13.77(elite cutoff 12.5)
2019 13.51(elite cutoff 11.9)
Martin was categorised as follows:
2019-22 mid-forward
2023-24 general forward
It is likely he was only categorised as a midfielder in 2-3 seasons max. So for his role, he is likely to have been rated elite every season from 2011-23(13 seasons) with probably 1-2 exceptions.
So it doesn't look like you have much of a clue what you are talking about. He actually has 5 seasons with ratings that would be considered elite for a pure midfielder, despite barely playing as a pure midfielder. You don't seem to have realisd that either. And if you think that ain't much....find another player who you can say that about....if all his years had been rated, my money would be on Lance Franklin being the only other one.
Yep so 45 matches out of 136 not included in his hot streaks he got 22 votes from 45 matches at around 0.5 votes per match(to go with his 1.55 votes per match the rest of the time in those 6 seasons.)
0.5 votes per match is the career average of players like Boak, Treloar, Brent Harvey, Jesaulenko, Carey, Cotchin, Maurice Rioli Sr, Robert Flower, Josh Kennedy of Swans fame....
So when Dusty hadn't hit his straps each year for those 6 years(average 7-8 games start of season, that was his level, around Josh Kennedy's career average. As you say, not good enough by Dusty. When he did hit his straps, the rest couldn't see which way he went.
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That's obtuse Run my man. So much so you have lost me.
You don't seem to understand you are comparing a forward/mid-forward with pure midfielders.
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Yep, wouldn't have been anything to do with his unrivalled ability to:
- win offensive 1 v 1 contests, 48.5% he won over his career, no other player above about 42%
- destroy opposition teams in finals when playing forward
It was simply due to Dusty, the player with the best season anyone has seen, never having had a tank.
Dustin Martin in 3 Grand Finals was outscored by the opposition TEAMS combined by 2.7 goals per game. The only player in history to play in multiple Grand Finals and have a smaller deficit to the opposition team is......
John Coleman. Sadly, Coleman only got to play in 2 Grand Finals, where Dusty played in 3.
Dusty diminishers really clutching at straws now.
When talking GOATs you don't need qualifiers and to be selective in relation to who you compare against.
Plenty of the HOF legends who are in GOAT discussions were mid-forwards. Skilton, KB, Lethal, Hutchinson, Reynolds, Bunton and Ebert were rovers/mids who also pushed forward and won club leading goal kickers.
Then you had the taller hybrids like Blight, Jezza, Baldock, Hird who are more in the Bont style spent plenty of time up forward due to marking strength and goal kicking.
GAJ himself was a forward who a large proportion of his career (before and after) he dominated the game as a mid.
But yes keep pulling up your selective groupings MR - you have helped confirm Dusty was the best finals player of 2010s (nobody disputing that anyway) so looking forward to you now using player ratings to argue that he was the best mid-forward of 2019-21.
If you ain't realized, neither is relevant when talking GOATs.
Dusty's overall career record has him similar level to a Joel Selwood, nothing wrong with that, but nowhere near GOAT levels.
And Brent Harvey (another mid-forward) has a player rating career avg of 15.10, another above the mighty Dusty.
- Sep 15, 2011
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NicNat and Gawn aren’t midfielders and they top him also. That said, good to see NicNat finally getting the credit he deserves.
Best finals player of the 2010's you say? Out of interest, exactly who was the best finals player of:
1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's?
If you can't answer that without thinking then Dusty is the best finals player in my lifetime, because when you get to the 2010's, guess what? Everyone knows without thinking exactly who it is, because he is so far in front of any contemporary that naming the 2nd best is almost impossible. Pretty much like it is very difficult to name the best finals player in any other decade bar the 50's(Barassi.)
How far in front is Dusty? Well the AVERAGE player rating of Dusty's highest rated 6 finals is above what any other contender has rated in ANY final. Coaches votes he has made a similar mess of the field. Norm Smith votes it only gets worse for the chasing pack.
As to your observation re all the rovers and ruck-rovers from history who changed in the forward pocket, spot on. The trouble is you weren't comparing Dusty to them when you listed his ratings v other players ratings, which is what I was responding to. Maybe you just forgot that somehow.
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