Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXVII

[Blue_Fusion]

Unless you are a team of an outgoing Dynasty or have a bunch of older players and have decided to top up with trades, I think the rebuild has been shown to be inefficient.

Ultimately the goal is team balance and cohesion, which a full rebuild doesn't provide from day 1 (as well as the dice roll of nailing the draft every time). Bringing newer draftees into a well entrenched system, where they are looked after by older harder bodies, and get a chance to ease into a system, and slowly replacing your oldest retirees & delisting's as required, while identifying gettable targets and filling the holes with free agents where required, should be modus operandum IMHO.

Rebuilds are not the way to go unless your hand is forced to do so.

I'm not suggesting a full rebuild...

We're losing TDK like it or not.

Walsh is likely leaving too...

So I said we should trade Harry...

That isn't a full rebuild.

Good players aren't going to fall from the sky and land at Carlton, we have to give something to get something back.

Who do you suggest we trade instead? Kemp? Gov? Williams? Get a few 3rd/4th rounders and try our luck?

I don't subscribe to that.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Agree to disagree on this topic, the thought process of drafting a large group of young kids again is a solution that is not going to happen so many other elements are part of the end result.

lt needs to a mix of draft & free agency & not gutting the list.

Where's the gutting?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Respect your opinion but I can’t agree with the bolded.

This is the approach we took with Weitering, Curnow, McKay and Walsh who are now ‘overpaid losers’. We did the same with Keizer, Murphy and Gibbs before them.

We should be asking why we keep finding ourselves in this position rather than going back to the same well that just doesn’t work.

Why we're in this position is simple to me. Didn't get the right people in to do the rebuild.

• 2016-2019 drafts were butchered.
• 'High performance' wasn't managed properly outlined by the massive injury list year after year
• Review was a front so they could use people as scapegoats... nobody knows how Lloyd survived... and he's still here...
• Contracts offered were too big
• Williams contract a disaster
• Trade targets costing us high draft picks - Saad, Cerra...
• Coach hiring 'processes' were a joke. Teague was chosen by the players and then they wanted him out... Voss was a choice to please the masses... premiership experience, most people know him... had 'experience'... yeah sticking to that eliminated any chance of selecting Kingsley...
• Rubbish assistant coaches

As others have said, from the outside in I would question the strength and talent of our football leadership across all levels of the club. This unfortunately starts at the top (board) and permeates down from there. Whilst Diesel was an incredible footballer, he doesn’t scream one to really drive accountability, standards and culture. I think Voss tries and so do our onfield leaders for the most part, however, there genuinely seems to be that lack of common purpose.

Well replacing football leadership across all levels of the club is part of rebuilding...

Proper football people will not put up with the lack of standards from most of our playing group...

The thing that stood out to me when listening to Sam Mitchell at the start of the year was that new people at the club are expected to learn ‘the Hawthorn way’. That might just be bs but you can tell with the really successful clubs over the last 20 years, everyone at the club buys in to what the club stands for and the way they work together to achieve the ultimate success. Great leadership builds great leadership. Would be genuinely curious what ‘the Carlton way’ is besides sticking together.

To me, the Carlton way seems to be 'careful not to offend anyone', 'spin up a feel good story to distract from on field', 'focus on off field agendas and virtue signaling', 'how can we make more money'...

It's way too business driven and until that changes we are going to struggle...

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom, what I’m trying to say is the club as a whole needs to look back at why we haven’t been able to nail it from the top down and put all egos aside. Whether we can do that or not is a completely different story.

It's not all doom and gloom. Like I said, I expect that with the changes I'm suggesting that we can climb back up into contention in a few years, maybe by 2030.

Two games to honour Walls and the leaders put in pathetic efforts for the most part. Disgraced Buzz too... these players don't care about the history of the club... only JSOS does.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

Any update on the situation Marc Shmurf 3 ? Feels like he’s out the door.

Ok Marc Shmurf 3 , I’m taking that silence that he’s gone. Just hoping the muppets we have in charge are smart enough to make the best of the opportunity that this situation presents.

 

[Chookaradley]

Wright is very comfortable with TDK leaving. IF he leaves.

 

[BluesFanatic2025]

TDK has our best offer of $1.3m and has had for four months. He has not accepted or rejected. Internal feeling is he is gone. Club won't be going higher. Club really rates Peter Dean's son as the best defender in the draft. The view is we may go a few steps backwards to go 5 steps forward and the core of our next flag is on the list already

 

[Benaly28]

Wright is very comfortable with TDK leaving. IF he leaves.

Thanks Chook.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

Wright is very comfortable with TDK leaving. IF he leaves.

No shame in losing him as far as I’m concerned. We were always going to struggle to keep all of our A listers. The money on offer is too obscene to counter. We move on and hopefully make the best of it. That’s what good clubs do.

 

[BlueTongue]

Yep.

Accept reality, not fantasy... there is no winning/good culture at Carlton. There just isn't, and there's no evidence you can provide to counter that statement.

For it to grow, we have to get a rebuild right. Another thing we just have to accept we got wrong.

So, we either get to work on that now... or we cling to what we have hoping that at age 30+ this core group can finally get it together...

I know which option I'd want us to take and I stick to that unreservedly.

Clinging onto this group only results in one path imo... finish around 13th next year, slide a bit further down in 2027, Tassie have the power for a couple years and we're in no man's land with a core group all starting to retire with no flags to show for our 10+ year rebuild.

But, if we play our cards right, we can build a very strong core once again much sooner. Voss will be gone by end of 2026. New coach will come in, new assistants... what better way to kick off a rebuild than to have picks 1+2+Cody all coming in to start 2027 season... by 2030, we will still have a few of our current best players and I see that as the year we start to contend.

I'm not suggesting a full rebuild...

We're losing TDK like it or not.

Walsh is likely leaving too...

So I said we should trade Harry...

That isn't a full rebuild.

Good players aren't going to fall from the sky and land at Carlton, we have to give something to get something back.

Who do you suggest we trade instead? Kemp? Gov? Williams? Get a few 3rd/4th rounders and try our luck?

I don't subscribe to that.

So losing 2 players is a now 'rebuild'?
You pretty much hammer the 'Getting the Rebuild right' to replace our core group of aging players point above.

All I'm suggesting is to start replacing players we need to gradually, not fillet a team that is largely OK and just needs some tweaking.

 

[DangerousD]

I think people confuse the term culture and how it applies to football clubs. Collingwood dumping Grundy and Treloar, might’ve been seen as negative impacts to culture especially how the club treated players under contract. In hindsight they were good decisions that facilitated the recruitment of some current players and developing the winning culture everyone gushes about when taking about Collingwood.

Being ruthless in the interests of improving the club and winning is not a bad thing.

People fail to realise that the big European soccer clubs move on players to other teams and leagues as soon as they think they’re not at the level anymore.

Regardless of status.

 

[Yubby]

Can anyone provide clarity if TDK does leave, where any compensation would lie given we don't have a first rounder? Assuming he is considered 1st round compensation given the $1.7m, would it be at where our pick was/finishing position or are there other options the AFL could choose?

 

[Blue and Silver]

Can anyone provide clarity if TDK does leave, where any compensation would lie given we don't have a first rounder? Assuming he is considered 1st round compensation given the $1.7m, would it be at where our pick was/finishing position or are there other options the AFL could choose?

After where our first pick would be

 

[JK61]

People fail to realise that the big European soccer clubs move on players to other teams and leagues as soon as they think they’re not at the level anymore.

Regardless of status.

No salary cap to worry about, so can go and buy anyone they can afford

 

[JK61]

I think people confuse the term culture and how it applies to football clubs. Collingwood dumping Grundy and Treloar, might’ve been seen as negative impacts to culture especially how the club treated players under contract. In hindsight they were good decisions that facilitated the recruitment of some current players and developing the winning culture everyone gushes about when taking about Collingwood.

Being ruthless in the interests of improving the club and winning is not a bad thing.

They only moved them (and others) on because their salary cap was a big mess. They did not move them to be ruthless in the interests of winning.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So losing 2 players is a now 'rebuild'?
You pretty much hammer the 'Getting the Rebuild right' to replace our core group of aging players point above.

All I'm suggesting is to start replacing players we need to gradually, not fillet a team that is largely OK and just needs some tweaking.

3 players. TDK, Harry + Walsh.

And it is a mini rebuild. I've already mentioned the players I think we should keep and who needs to be phased out.

This team has been 'a few tweaks' away for years. I can bring up posts from years ago that use those words...

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[jj1978]

Doubt we’d offer 1.3… even with what we’ve seen in his career thus far and with our salary cap as tight as has been suggested that’s ludicrous. If it’s a bit of a ploy to get Saints to bury themselves tighter in stupidity then great. For that cash freed up, shore up JSOS and seek to find another decent skilful with some pace player from another team.

 

[blues4flag]

Cripps, and IMO Silvagni. Many will disagree with the latter I think, but it is important to how I feel about the team.

They are a tight knit group. Hardly anyone leaves. So they have a good off field culture. The on field issues don't have to be because of culture. They could be that we're not good enough, or there is a level of incompetence driving it.

Newman.

 

[Accidental genius]

Can the “tanking and rebuilding” versus a list tweak debate be on a dedicated thread?

 

[bigblueboy]

3 players. TDK, Harry + Walsh.

And it is a mini rebuild. I've already mentioned the players I think we should keep and who needs to be phased out.

This team has been 'a few tweaks' away for years. I can bring up posts from years ago that use those words...

Not happening.

 

[CCurnow3picks]

TDK has our best offer of $1.3m and has had for four months. He has not accepted or rejected. Internal feeling is he is gone. Club won't be going higher. Club really rates Peter Dean's son as the best defender in the draft. The view is we may go a few steps backwards to go 5 steps forward and the core of our next flag is on the list already

Skin in the game - eh ol’ sport…

 

[Gointocarlton]

After where our first pick would be

The one we have to handover to Haw?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Not happening.

You don't know that... it very well could...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

TDK has our best offer of $1.3m and has had for four months. He has not accepted or rejected. Internal feeling is he is gone. Club won't be going higher. Club really rates Peter Dean's son as the best defender in the draft. The view is we may go a few steps backwards to go 5 steps forward and the core of our next flag is on the list already

If we've offered him $1.3M we're idiots.

 

[AlphaBlue]

If we've offered him $1.3M we're idiots.

Our offer is well under 1.3M.