Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[greatwhiteshark]

Not all non Vic teams are the same, why do so many want to pretend that WA, SA and GC have the same fixture challenges?

SA teams get 13 games at SA, all at the single preferred venue, and have a small travel load. Which other teams have that H&A fixture model?

SA teams and Geelong have the best situation during H&A, but come finals Geelong don't enjoy any more advantage.

The SA teams don't really shit the bed, they just aren't actually one of the strongest two teams most year, they just finish top 2 due to H&A fixture advantage.

But yes, the sooking continues about how easy Melbourne based teams have it because some don't fly as much.

So basically you are saying this only about SA teams? All teams have their challenges, some more than others. Thats what comes with an inequitable Competition. What works for Collingwood or Geelong when they are on top may not work for them when they are on the bottom. Adelaide won two flags from 5th or below, how did they do that? Based on your theory that should be impossible as they were probably only the 10th best team in the comp.
Like I said I hear you and the SA teams have struggled in their earnt home finals but I think it's just an anomoly that in 100 years probably won't stand out as it does today.

 

[doppleganger]

So basically you are saying this only about SA teams?
All teams have their challenges, some more than others. Thats what comes with an inequitable Competition.

The problem is the focus is on travel, not ground familiarity advantage.

The teams that enjoy the largest ground familiarity advantage during H&A dominate the H&A ladder.

And it ain't a Vic v Non-Vic issue.

Adelaide won flags in the 90s, before ground rationalisation was complete.

They faced tougher fixture back in the 90s, they were playing Pies at Vic Park, Carlton at Princes Park, Hawthorn and Saints at Waverley, Richmond and Melbourne at the G etc, at actual home grounds of their opponents.

Like I said I hear you and the SA teams have struggled in their earnt home finals but I think it's just an anomoly that in 100 years probably won't stand out as it does today.

I don't think it is an anomaly that after 25 seasons that the H&A ladder is dominated by teams who enjoy a favourable ground familiarity advantage year in year out.

 

[mightymouse75]

12 times top 2, and 9 home finals losses.

Perhaps they ain't been in the best 2 teams each year, but somehow keep finishing top2.

Happened also to Freo this year, another team who enjoyed 13 games at Optus (11 with a big advantage against their opponent) and they lost to a team who only play 9 games at their home ground.

The point is it isn't.

Melbourne based teams host games at alternate grounds every year, giving up home ground advantage in the process.

It is why in the 21st century, only 13 Melbourne based teams have managed to finish top2 at the end of the H&A season...the AFL has reduced their home advantage.

It's the traveling. The missed training sessions. Sleeping in a strange bed. Having to put recovery back a day to get back home.
It's a constant juggling act & the stress on the body builds up over the season.
Traveling between Docklands to the MCG & the pork barrel stadium in Geelong. What a novel idea

 

[Humblebob]

It's the traveling. The missed training sessions. Sleeping in a strange bed. Having to put recovery back a day to get back home.
It's a constant juggling act & the stress on the body builds up over the season.
Traveling between Docklands to the MCG & the pork barrel stadium in Geelong. What a novel idea

If only we could transplant Greater Perth and fly it over so it could be closer to the rest of the league. Living in the most isolated major city on the planet comes with these sort of disadvantages

 

[doppleganger]

It's the traveling. The missed training sessions. Sleeping in a strange bed. Having to put recovery back a day to get back home.
It's a constant juggling act & the stress on the body builds up over the season.
Traveling between Docklands to the MCG & the pork barrel stadium in Geelong. What a novel idea

You do realise that some Melbourne based teams have a bigger travel impost than the SA clubs.

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

Apparently the Suns are an honourary member of the Vicbias club, hope the umps have been told

 

[sr36]

I think the biggest advantage Vic clubs have is the ability to top up, and add players to fill needs.

There would be 7 times the players available to Vic clubs, and once you build a good list you are very attractive to this large pool of players, and you can turn it to a great list very easily.

That's what I think too. It's all about recruiting. It's about being the best team. It's not about aeroplanes.

If it was travel or all these other things that people carry on about, the Vic teams would do better on average. But they don't. Vic clubs have dominated both flags and spoons. If you go on average Vic clubs have probably done slightly worse than the other states.

WIth so many players wanting to live in Vic and success being such a drawing factor, the top Vic teams can attract players more easily and cheaply. You end up with really good and really shit Vic teams because the shit ones have to pay a heap to recruit or retain their players with competition from the more successful Vic teams for players that want to live in Victoria. If Zak Butters comes back to Vic it'll take an obscene offer for him to end up anywhere other than Geelong, Collingwood, Hawks or Dogs. It'll be one of the good Vic teams getting better.

And just like players, the same applies to off field staff - if you're an in demand assistant coach, fitness trainer, recruiter or administrator who wants to live in Victoria, where are you going Collingwood or North?

 

[Freomaniac]

Especially if he wants some nice ‘farm’ land as a tax benefit

I am happy to play to be in Geelong's playing list for 6 seasons at $10,000 a week or $520,000 a year.

Then have a small patch of land or a house or a farm at the end of my contract

 

[Freomaniac]

I am not disputing that the Adelaide teams have for whatever reason failed to win their first final in a finals series. And I agree it has happened regularly for the two Adelaide clubs. But it doesn’t really apply across the board for non vic teams and I am just pointing out you are generalising.
Brisbane and West coast thus has not applied to on mass like in Adelaide. Sydney been pretty good at home also.
You just will never convince me if West coast finish top in a season they don’t deserve to. There is so much to it now. Who did you play twice, where did you play them? When did you play them? This applies to all clubs. Yiu guys got so called blockbusters this year against Richmond, Essendon, Carlton and all of them were little walks in the park for you.
Some seasons all 4 of you big VIC clubs are strong. Freo had two easy hit outs against the Eagles this year and have had for 4 years now. It’s all swings and roundabouts mate.
I have not been sure the best side has won the flag for over 20 years now, not sure how anyone can say with any confidence that the best side wins anymore as the comp lacks so much equality.
The comp is what it is.

I have to disagree about both SA sides struggling to win their 1st finals in finals series. Or it isn't as bad as you think.

Just in the crows alone since 2005.

2005: top spot. lost 1st final to the Saints but won the semi final next week and lost to eagles in a prelim final.

2006: 2nd on the ladder. Beat Freo in the qualifying final, lost preliminary final in footy park to eagles.

2007: narrowly lost an Elim final vs hawks in Victoria.

2008: 5th and lost to Collingwood

2009: belted Essendon at home lost to magpies.

2012: lost qualifying final to swans. Beat Freo in a semi final and lost a prelim final.

2015: 7th or 8th .beat dogs in Elim final at MCG , lost to hawks in a semi final at MCG.

2016: 5th or 6th. beat Kangaroos at Adelaide oval and lost to swans in semi final.

2017: top of ladder. Won qualifying final vs GWS , beat cats in a prelim final at home. Lost the 2017 grand final at MCG.

Port since 2010 or specially the Ken Hinkley 2013 to 2025 era....

2013: 7th, beat magpies in an Elim final at MCG. Lost to cats in a semi final .

2014: 5th.... Beat Richmond at Adelaide oval, beat dockers in Perth in a semi final and lost to hawks in a prelim final.

2017 5th again, lost narrowly to eagles in Adelaide oval.

2020: top of ladder. Beat cats at Adelaide oval on qf. Lost to Richmond on prelim final.

2021: top 2. Beat the cats in qf lost to Bulldogs in a home preliminary final.

2023 : 3rd... Lost to Brisbane at Gabba in qf, lost to GWS in semi final.

2024 : 2nd. Lost to cats by 80 odd points in qualifying final, beat hawks in semi final and lose to swans in prelim final.


You can make a case for crows losing their 1st finals in Certain years in the last 20 or 25 years.

As for Port you could too but not as badly as the crows.

 

[Freomaniac]

All 3 non Vic teams were terrible as well, so there is that.

All 3 non Victorian sides were terrible?

Crows I agree. GWS had Injuries and took a risk.

Dockers? I wouldn't say that they were terrible.

Don't get me wrong I was gutted but not angry or upset losing to the suns.

But most neutrals would of said the dockers vs suns Elim final match was at least watchable

 

[Freomaniac]

The two SA teams have 12 top 2 finishes, and lost home finals in 9 of 12 occasions in 21st century.

The eight Melbourne based teams have combined for 13 top 2 finishes, only twice did they fail to make it to a GF - Dees in 22 and Tigers 18

If you only finish top 2 as the result of a soft and advantaged H&A fixture, then you weren't deserving.

Yet the SA sooks pretend they have it hard as they have a couple of extra 1 hr plane trips spread over the course of a 6 month season compared to a team like Essendon.

Travel is a red herring, especially as the most successful "Melbourne" based team Hawthorn actually travels the most. Having a ground familiarity advantage over your opponent is the biggest factor.

Getting 11 games where you enjoy a strong ground advantage compared to 4 or 5 is the biggest factor.

This is why average SA teams are consistently able to finish top 2 when they aren't actually a really strong team, and then lose to "lower ranked" teams.

I will give some slack for the crows.

The 2025 crows haven't played one final between 2018 to 2024.

Did the crows have a soft draw? They got Port Adelaide twice and they dropped off badly.

They also had eagles and kangaroos twice. Might of got tigers twice too. Crows did belt the tigers in Victoria this season.

Crows won't get those sides twice next season.

 

[Freomaniac]

It’s obviously not. But you flat earthers are impervious to reality. God love you

Not gonna blame Vic bias for dockers losing to the suns.

Gutted with the loss but not angry or upset about it.

Neutral fans would say the dockers vs suns Elim final was watchable

AFL did want Brisbane vs Gold coast in a final.

 

[go_the_dockers]

That's what I think too. It's all about recruiting. It's about being the best team. It's not about aeroplanes.

If it was travel or all these other things that people carry on about, the Vic teams would do better on average. But they don't. Vic clubs have dominated both flags and spoons. If you go on average Vic clubs have probably done slightly worse than the other states.

WIth so many players wanting to live in Vic and success being such a drawing factor, the top Vic teams can attract players more easily and cheaply. You end up with really good and really shit Vic teams because the shit ones have to pay a heap to recruit or retain their players with competition from the more successful Vic teams for players that want to live in Victoria. If Zak Butters comes back to Vic it'll take an obscene offer for him to end up anywhere other than Geelong, Collingwood, Hawks or Dogs. It'll be one of the good Vic teams getting better.

And just like players, the same applies to off field staff - if you're an in demand assistant coach, fitness trainer, recruiter or administrator who wants to live in Victoria, where are you going Collingwood or North?

I still believe things like Travel, Percentage of local talent on your list, days spend away from home, home GF an impact but the ability to top up cheaply by poaching another teams players is a massive advantage. I would say Free Agency introduction has massively favour the Vic teams.

 

[demondavey]

Stunning weekend for the big Vics. Everyone seems pleasantly content with it.

Hawthorn were never losing that in my opinion. GWS can not be a serious side when they pick and choose when to arrive. They’ve been patchy all year. Hawks are well coached and will be head deep in it against Adelaide.

Collingwood too good as I’ve maintained for a month. Crows first finals appearance in years so didn’t expect them to get near it.

Lions beaten up but will bounce back. Geelong too good at the moment. I am holding my breath for a Geelong v Hawthorn PF. Could be the game of the year.

 

[sr36]

I would say Free Agency introduction has massively favour the Vic teams.

It's more than just free agency, it's also cultural attitudes towards player movement. But I think you are wrong to say it favours Vic teams. It disfavours just as many Vic teams. On average it actually favours the WA teams as the ratio of players in the league from WA compared to the ratio of clubs in the league from WA is really favourable. And you see it with a guy like Liam Baker moving to WCE - a fellow current basket case team like North would have to pay a godfather offer to attract a standard setter like him. And you see it with how many players Freo have attracted in recent years. Freo have been comparable to the Saints in terms of success and aura within the league - yet you've been consistently able to attract high profile recruits without paying through the nose like the Saints are currently doing - as they only have one other team competing for quite a lot of go home recruits.

What it does though is that it makes the Vic clubs more extreme - really good or really bad and Collingwood and Geelong who have an extra recruiting pull within the Vic market - beyond just the state - the Pies size, massive crowds and extra off field earning potential and the Cats unique location - are the most likely to attract players and thus they become even more likely to attract players because success is the biggest recruiting pull of them all.

If the other factors were as big as people think, Vic clubs would do better on average - they don't. For a while now there's been more Vic clubs at the bottom than at the top.

Easier player movement has made the Vic clubs more extreme in terms of good or bad and thus both flags and spoons are more likely to end up in Victoria.

Having said all of that, the Northern academy recruiting advantage isn't close to hitting it's peak yet - even if it was shut down immediately. The first ones taken over a decade ago - Heeney and Andrews - are now at their peak and there's been a heap more taken since. Northern clubs are going to have an awesome era, which means they'll also increasingly be able to recruit top players - as success is a massive draw card - and if anyone thinks that Sydney or Qld is a massive detractor as a location for Vics to move to - they're wrong.

 

[Macca180]

I am holding my breath for a Geelong v Hawthorn PF. Could be the game of the year.

Same...

Geelong v Hawks

Collingwood v Brisbane

Hopefully

 

[go_the_dockers]

It's more than just free agency, it's also cultural attitudes towards player movement. But I think you are wrong to say it favours Vic teams. It disfavours just as many Vic teams. On average it actually favours the WA teams as the ratio of players in the league from WA compared to the ratio of clubs in the league from WA is really favourable. And you see it with a guy like Liam Baker moving to WCE - a fellow current basket case team like North would have to pay a godfather offer to attract a standard setter like him. And you see it with how many players Freo have attracted in recent years. Freo have been comparable to the Saints in terms of success and aura within the league - yet you've been consistently able to attract high profile recruits without paying through the nose like the Saints are currently doing - as they only have one other team competing for quite a lot of go home recruits.

What it does though is that it makes the Vic clubs more extreme - really good or really bad and Collingwood and Geelong who have an extra recruiting pull within the Vic market - beyond just the state - the Pies size, massive crowds and extra off field earning potential and the Cats unique location - are the most likely to attract players and thus they become even more likely to attract players because success is the biggest recruiting pull of them all.

If the other factors were as big as people think, Vic clubs would do better on average - they don't. For a while now there's been more Vic clubs at the bottom than at the top.

Easier player movement has made the Vic clubs more extreme in terms of good or bad and thus both flags and spoons are more likely to end up in Victoria.

Having said all of that, the Northern academy recruiting advantage isn't close to hitting it's peak yet - even if it was shut down immediately. The first ones taken over a decade ago - Heeney and Andrews - are now at their peak and there's been a heap more taken since. Northern clubs are going to have an awesome era, which means they'll also increasingly be able to recruit top players - as success is a massive draw card - and if anyone thinks that Sydney or Qld is a massive detractor as a location for Vics to move to - they're wrong.

Agree with you mostly.

1. It favours Vic teams who get other things right, and it leads to them being on the extreme. It is big reason the vic team tend to win the premierships.


2. North should never be compared to the Eagles. They are the richest club in the comp.

3. Agree Northern academies are a big advantage, but still not enough for them to get over the vic advantages to win flags.

4. SA and WA clubs miss out on any advantage, as do the small vic clubs.

 

[The Blue Max]

There is a subliminal bias amongst commentators towards Vic teams.

I’ve lived in Vic for 45 years - watching Swans replays it’s been evident that certain commentators start to get a hysteria in their voices when a Vic team is doing well - either coming back or winning.

Lyon, Dunstall, Whately, Russell, Brereton & Mooney are the main protagonists.

Dunstall & Brereton hate us.

Buckley and Brown are very even in their comments.

Hudson is just a screamer, regardless except he screams for Geelong louder.

 

[Humblebob]

Agree with you mostly.

1. It favours Vic teams who get other things right, and it leads to them being on the extreme. It is big reason the vic team tend to win the premierships.


2. North should never be compared to the Eagles. They are the richest club in the comp.

3. Agree Northern academies are a big advantage, but still not enough for them to get over the vic advantages to win flags.

4. SA and WA clubs miss out on any advantage, as do the small vic clubs.

Miss out on any advantage? Why do you think WC is "the richest club in the comp"? Hard work?

 

[go_the_dockers]

Miss out on any advantage? Why do you think you're "the richest club in the comp"? Hard work?

How does it help the eagles?

Freo and Eagles are rich due to a favourable stadium deal, loyal fans, some hard work, but money does not equal success.


It doesn't give us anything that really matters.
Extra Friday night games?
More free agents?
Extra draft picks?
Home Grand final?

We can't even hire additional coaches any more.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

How does it help the eagles?

Freo and Eagles are rich due to a favourable stadium deal, loyal fans, some hard work, but money does not equal success.


It doesn't give us anything that really matters.
Extra Friday night games?
More free agents?
Extra draft picks?
Home Grand final?

We can't even hire additional coaches any more.

I can't speak for Freo but the Eagles could get more coaches/staff and just pay the tax and do it yearly. Nothing stopping them flaunting their wealth. The problem would be if they kept doing it and had some success the rest of the clubs would ask the AFL to stop it.

 

[sr36]

Agree with you mostly.

1. It favours Vic teams who get other things right, and it leads to them being on the extreme. It is big reason the vic team tend to win the premierships.


2. North should never be compared to the Eagles. They are the richest club in the comp.

3. Agree Northern academies are a big advantage, but still not enough for them to get over the vic advantages to win flags.

4. SA and WA clubs miss out on any advantage, as do the small vic clubs.

North and Eagles are comparable onfield at the moment which means that any peak career player like Baker is signing up to lose a lot of games of footy. But agree that it's chalk and cheese in the long-run.

WA teams have a very strong recruiting situation. Only two clubs in a state that produces so many players - big go home pull. Only two clubs makes you big and wealthy and also gives players strong off-field opportunities. Easily the NGA academies with the most potential with the whole of a state which produces so many brilliant Aboriginal players divided amongst only two teams. Travel is your only disadvantage.

The Northern academy advantage isn't close to playing out yet. Draft advantages take a decade to fully kick in as most good players are at their peak about 28. There's been gradually more and more top kids coming through - the advantage it's given won't peak for a fair few years. It remains to be seen, but I'd be betting on flags going disproprionately there and it being really rare for a Northern team to spend any significant amount of time out of contention and zero time at the bottom over the coming decade.

 

[Freddy Swift]

Why do Non-Vics think Vic supporters automatically want a Vic side to win a game? Simply not true. Our long held club rivalries mean much more than any club from another state.

A Collingwood/Geelong GF would be my worst nightmare but is looking likely. Last year was wonderful, Brisbane beat Geelong in the PF so I was able to sit back and watch the GF the next week and not mind who won.

We don’t dislike Non-Vic sides, we dislike some fellow Vic sides far more.

 

[demondavey]

I can't speak for Freo but the Eagles could get more coaches/staff and just pay the tax and do it yearly. Nothing stopping them flaunting their wealth. The problem would be if they kept doing it and had some success the rest of the clubs would ask the AFL to stop it.

Watch how much sooks like Eddie would kick off if it happened…

 

[greatwhiteshark]

North and Eagles are comparable onfield at the moment which means that any peak career player like Baker is signing up to lose a lot of games of footy. But agree that it's chalk and cheese in the long-run.

WA teams have a very strong recruiting situation. Only two clubs in a state that produces so many players - big go home pull. Only two clubs makes you big and wealthy and also gives players strong off-field opportunities. Easily the NGA academies with the most potential with the whole of a state which produces so many brilliant Aboriginal players divided amongst only two teams. Travel is your only disadvantage.

The Northern academy advantage isn't close to playing out yet. Draft advantages take a decade to fully kick in as most good players are at their peak about 28. There's been gradually more and more top kids coming through - the advantage it's given won't peak for a fair few years. It remains to be seen, but I'd be betting on flags going disproprionately there and it being really rare for a Northern team to spend any significant amount of time out of contention and zero time at the bottom over the coming decade.

I still don't think that WA is producing the talent it should and I think there is reason behind it.
Originally some decades ago the WAFL clubs invested heavily in talent in all their zones. They don't do this anymore as firstly they don't have the funds to do it and secondly they get virtually nothing for producing AFL talent.

So the question is why don't the Eagles and Dockers put in to produce the talent and the answer again comes back to why should they if the talent leaves WA and we get no access really to them.

This is why I am a believer that the best two players in WA each year should go to the WA clubs, the best 10 players in Victoria go the Vic clubs, same with SA, Qld and NSW.
Then after that you have the draft.
This makes AFL clubs dig in and produce talent for some gain. (Won't happen of course)

WA in my opinion should be having on average 8-15 players taken in the first two rounds of the draft yearly. Yet in reality we are averaging around 2-4.

It is very poor for a footy state. But again as I say there are reasons why.