Opinion How much of Alistair Clarkson's success at Hawthorn was actually due to Chris Fagan

[geelong_crazy26]

i think Clarkson was an amazing coach but perhaps is a victim now of his own massive success.

Considering the run he went on, it would be normal for your ego to get super high and think everything you do is the best way. The game, and coaching, has changed a LOT since the hawks era, my guess is he's still a bit stuck in his own ways because they were so successful before and its hard for him to listen to people with less credentials.

I have no interest in seeing North win flags, but I'd love for him to start being competitive because uncompetitive teams just make the season worse, so hope Clarkson can pull the club together.

I think his past his use by date tbh. Not all coaches can go on forever. He was elite, but he isn’t anymore. Tactically past it

 

[Junction Lion]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

Yes, he has a great list however I haven’t seen any other coach have the type of respect and relationship visibly with his players. I am sure it is the same behind closed doors. A bit like Jerry Maguire and Rod Tidwell. Yes, he also has / had a lot of talented staff around him but the buck stops with Fages.
The ability to attract good players is also testament to what he has built.

 

[GWT6]

Been thinking the same thing.

I think the answer is Fagon filled in for Clarkson's weaknesses.

A great leader knows to surround themselves with the right people. I think Clarkson is brilliant tactically, but not life smart. I believe Clarkson got lucky with Fagan, and doesn't see what he is now missing.

 

[boncer34]

i think Clarkson was an amazing coach but perhaps is a victim now of his own massive success.

Considering the run he went on, it would be normal for your ego to get super high and think everything you do is the best way. The game, and coaching, has changed a LOT since the hawks era, my guess is he's still a bit stuck in his own ways because they were so successful before and its hard for him to listen to people with less credentials.

I have no interest in seeing North win flags, but I'd love for him to start being competitive because uncompetitive teams just make the season worse, so hope Clarkson can pull the club together.

Clarko's found out what every other great coach has eventually found out.

It doesnt matter how good you are as a coach, if you dont have the cattle you cant wing games.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yes, he has a great list however I haven’t seen any other coach have the type of respect and relationship visibly with his players. I am sure it is the same behind closed doors. A bit like Jerry Maguire and Rod Tidwell. Yes, he also has / had a lot of talented staff around him but the buck stops with Fages.
The ability to attract good players is also testament to what he has built.

Yep agree with that. Have always maintained his talent is he is an elite relationship and mentor figure. I don’t rate him highly tactically but I rate him highly as a player manager

 

[Osho]

That bloody John Curtin surfing off the wake of his deputy / treasurer Ben Chifley guiding Australia though the war.

 

[Xtreme]

Clarko is the best coach in the modern era. And like Dusty is the GOAT of all time player
Clarko is also the GOAT of coaching.

 

[Osho]

Yep agree with that. Have always maintained his talent is he is an elite relationship and mentor figure. I don’t rate him highly tactically but I rate him highly as a player manager

Like, you'd know

 

[brmi]

CBF reading through all of it but clearly Fagan was, and still is, the mastermind.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Fagan?

Nothing to do with it!

It was all Mitchell!

He won 2018 for Simpson too!

 

[Upgrayedd]

Wait this isn't bay 13

 

[Upgrayedd]

Fagan?

Nothing to do with it!

It was all Mitchell!

He won 2018 for Simpson too!

I mean, Spangher turns up to West coast, immediately wins one, turns up at Sydney for one year, they win one
Turns up to hawthorn and we immediately win 3

Bloke has a 50% strike rate for premierships while on a list, why are all these loser clubs trying to lure Petracca, Milera and Curnow, when they could lure Spangher out of retirement, sign him to a 6 year deal and win 3 premierships, are they stupid?

 

[Kickit2brown]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

I think a better comparison would be to look at the list he took over from Leppa and how he has transformed it.

You mention guys like Andrews and Hipwood. They hardly won a game for their first 100 games because we were so shit and had to do it through hard work. To throw them on some arbitrary list is a bit misleading.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

That’s a pretty lazy argument really.

3 trades were reasonably significant with Neale, Cameron and Dunkley, however we paid more than fair price for all three. The other 3 were role players both now and at the time of trades.

Free agents, 1 clearly hasn’t worked, 2 are yet to even play a game, with the last considered big injury risk at the time.

Academy, all the selection were reasonably late excluding Hipwood pick 14 and Marshall, a first round pick at 25. More the case of development and being in a good system.

Father and sons, clearly have been lucky with the volume and timing here.

High end picks, of course we will have high end picks, that’s coming off the back of two bottom finishes.

Seen a few posts were Geelong supporter have compared our list structure, we’re going to have significantly more higher end picks and assets as your club is coming off a sustained period of success for 15+ years, we’re right in the middle of ours, those players haven’t rotated out yet.

We also systematically traded the like of Hanley, Redden, Rockliff, Beams, Leuenberger and high draft picks like Schache, Aish and Witherden to rejuvenate the list. A lot of what you’ve described was paid with by their departures. I can’t recall Geelong, or any other non northern team losing this type of talent during their rebuilding.

 

[_jrtp09_]

I mean, Spangher turns up to West coast, immediately wins one, turns up at Sydney for one year, they win one
Turns up to hawthorn and we immediately win 3

Bloke has a 50% strike rate for premierships while on a list, why are all these loser clubs trying to lure Petracca, Milera and Curnow, when they could lure Spangher out of retirement, sign him to a 6 year deal and win 3 premierships, are they stupid?

Very left-field but I think you may be onto something!

 

[windyhill]

Bedding in Gold Coast and GWS has to be taken into account. Hawks took full advantage and good luck to them, someone had to.

 

[Pinnell]

Brett Ratten

Brett Ratten

Age

54

Ht

184cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.4

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

10.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

3.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.4

5star

K

13.8

5star

HB

12.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

had a better record at north when Clarkson took his mental health break. Ratten > Clarkson

 

[kickazz]

I think it was the players they had more than coaching. A very good mix of quality players.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

That’s a pretty lazy argument really.

3 trades were reasonably significant with Neale, Cameron and Dunkley, however we paid more than fair price for all three. The other 3 were role players both now and at the time of trades.

Free agents, 1 clearly hasn’t worked, 2 are yet to even play a game, with the last considered big injury risk at the time.

Academy, all the selection were reasonably late excluding Hipwood pick 14 and Marshall, a first round pick at 25. More the case of development and being in a good system.

Father and sons, clearly have been lucky with the volume and timing here.

High end picks, of course we will have high end picks, that’s coming off the back of two bottom finishes.

Seen a few posts were Geelong supporter have compared our list structure, we’re going to have significantly more higher end picks and assets as your club is coming off a sustained period of success for 15+ years, we’re right in the middle of ours, those players haven’t rotated out yet.

We also systematically traded the like of Hanley, Redden, Rockliff, Beams, Leuenberger and high draft picks like Schache, Aish and Witherden to rejuvenate the list. A lot of what you’ve described was paid with by their departures. I can’t recall Geelong, or any other non northern team losing this type of talent during their rebuilding.

The academy players have a long history of going much later than their real worth because clubs don’t bother putting in the effort or work because they know they can’t recruit them. Why waste your resources?? Same with F/S, So that is misleading stating the selection some of them went. Even the early ones slide a little bit, will Ashcroft was the standout no1 pick and he slid to 2 due to the F/S rule.

More my point is your list has been built through early draft picks, a high influx of academy players only Brisbane have access to, F/S and trades.

It is really little to do with fagan.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

The academy players have a long history of going much later than their real worth because clubs don’t bother putting in the effort or work because they know they can’t recruit them. Why waste your resources?? Same with F/S, So that is misleading stating the selection some of them went. Even the early ones slide a little bit, will Ashcroft was the standout no1 pick and he slid to 2 due to the F/S rule.

More my point is your list has been built through early draft picks, a high influx of academy players only Brisbane have access to, F/S and trades.

It is really little to do with fagan.

As I stated, we gained the majority of those early picks and trades by moving assets that other clubs traditionally haven’t been prepared to move at the start of a rebuild. Beams, Rockliff, Redden, Leuenberger and Hanley would have been seen as the core of our next push, however Fagan had the vision to move these type on and reset.

Hawks done it with Mitchell and Omera, Tigers with Rioli, Baker and Bolton and seeing Melbourne attempt it this off season. There list will be rejuvenated with young talent because of these good moves. Academy situation is a different discussion, with obvious reasonings.

Fagan doesn’t get any praise for his tactics. He clearly out coached Scott at nearly every opportunity last week. To rebound from a 40 point loss to a 40 point win within 3 weeks isn’t a coincidence or list makeup. Watching the analysis of the Grand Final, you would see the amount of tactical changes we made. He doesn’t make these Hail Mary type moves, so a lot goes unnoticed.

If it simply to do with high end picks, academy and trades why haven’t Gold Coast and GWS won multiple flags already.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

As I stated, we gained the majority of those early picks and trades by moving assets that other clubs traditionally haven’t been prepared to move at the start of a rebuild. Beams, Rockliff, Redden, Leuenberger and Hanley would have been seen as the core of our next push, however Fagan had the vision to move these type on and reset.

Hawks done it with Mitchell and Omera, Tigers with Rioli, Baker and Bolton and seeing Melbourne attempt it this off season. There list will be rejuvenated with young talent because of these good moves. Academy situation is a different discussion, with obvious reasonings.

Fagan doesn’t get any praise for his tactics. He clearly out coached Scott at nearly every opportunity last week. To rebound from a 40 point loss to a 40 point win within 3 weeks isn’t a coincidence or list makeup. Watching the analysis of the Grand Final, you would see the amount of tactical changes we made. He doesn’t make these Hail Mary type moves, so a lot goes unnoticed.

If it simply to do with high end picks, academy and trades why haven’t Gold Coast and GWS won multiple flags already.

Correct, you have lost a few players like almost every team has. No different for Brisbane, not sure what your point is. You didn’t chose to have rockliff go he left, leunberger was as injury prone as they get and was a footy tradgedy imo.

I was simply pointing out for the list situation being given to Brisbane to build up this side is far superior to what most others have. It’s an incredible run of exclusive access via F/S academies early picks and trades.

Nothing magical or worthy of too much praise for fagan tbh. He obviously did a very good job but let’s not get silly with threads like this.

Btw, you are aware history suggests the side who wins the first final more often than not loses the grand final rematch?? And given the talent discrepancies of our lists in surprised we even made the grand final at all with our band of rookies and late picks.

It felt like a grand final of the misfits Vs the elites

 

[Ralll]

I'm not saying either way, but Fagan was there while their list was peaking and not building/refreshing so the win/loss results are logical without attributing it to Fagan.

 

[GenericUsername202]

There is truth to this. Even Luke Hodge said he spent more time with Fagan than he did with Clarkson at hawthorn

 

[CharacterFirst]

Nah. No impact from Fages.

It was Hawthorns "supplements" program according to Hirdy.

Injunction anyone?

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

How much of Fagans success was actually to due to Clarkson?