Modern day players surpassing their club's traditionally thought of GOATs/Club legends

[RichLeMonde]

Cameron has now gone to Geelong like GAJ, so I didn't count him.

Having a look at AFL tables for disposals and goals kicked, those are the 4 players that jumped out.

I also applied these metrics to the following players, who some consider the greats to, see what areas they were strong in.
- GAJ
- Buddy Franklin
- Dusty Martin
- Leigh Matthews
- Nat Fyfe
- Kevin Bartlett

Goals and disposals get you noticed and bring you into conversations about being great.

Toby Greene has kicked 215 goals and got over 3700 disposals at an average over 20.

Whilst I think your overall conclusions are definitely reasonable, people generally seem to have forgotten how well Toby Greene started.

In his first year of football, Toby played midfield and averaged over 28 disposals a game as an 18 year old in a side that won 2 games!

He got more of the ball than any rookie had ever had before him and the only reason he didn't win the Rising star in a canter was ineligibility due to suspension. He finished runner up in the B&F to a mature Callan Ward but again, would have won if he had played 22 games rather than 19 cos of how the votes work.

I suspect he would have remained a dominant midfielder if GWS wasn't completely stacked in that area (Kelly, Coniglio, Ward, Treloar, Shiel, Griffen, Scully, etc, etc) whilst being bereft of any decent small forwards. Because Greene was capabale of 40 plus goal seasons whilst rotating through the middle (and none of the others could do that), he had to sacrifice his midfield spot.

I'd rate Greene higher than Cameron personally, Cameron started well and was a good player for GWS no doubt, but Greene has that 'something'.

Greene is an absolute gun - one of the top 10 most valuable players in the comp this year, maybe top 5.

But Cameron averages more goals and more possessions than Hawkins, Riewoldt and Kennedy, generally considered the 3 best key forwards of the era, after Buddy. He has shown at Geelong this year that he is a more dominant and valuable forward than Hawk. No one puts Greene in the convo for best forward/mid of his era, although he certainly is (and arguably no 1) this year, whereas Cameron would have a claim to no 2 spot behind Buddy playing the hardest position on the ground.

Greene is a ripper, and I would say both at their best are just about the 2 best match winning forwards in the AFL, but Cameron has to have him for consistency as GWS’s greatest player

 

[PhatBoy]

Greene is an absolute gun - one of the top 10 most valuable players in the comp this year, maybe top 5.

But Cameron averages more goals and more possessions than Hawkins, Riewoldt and Kennedy, generally considered the 3 best key forwards of the era. He has shown at Geelong this year that he is a more dominant and valuable forward than Hawk. No one puts Greene in the convo for best forward/mid of his era, although he certainly is (and arguably no 1) this year, whereas Cameron would have a claim to no 2 spot behind Buddy playing the hardest position on the ground.

Greene is a ripper, and I would say both at their best are just about the 2 best match winning forwards in the AFL, but Cameron has to have him for consistency as GWS’s greatest player

Has he? He’s a gun, no doubt about that and he’s elite but I would still choose Hawk for right now at least if I could only have one because of his general play

 

[RichLeMonde]

I think he would be, if he had the Melbourne exposure - personally I wouldn't be but I'd imagine the footy media would. His record is very hard to argue, if it had more exposure I'm certain he'd be talked up as.

But Pav, like Riewoldt and Brown, was never considered the clear best player in the comp for a number of years (though he was right up there). Neither was Fyfe, Hird, Voss, Danger, Dusty or Judd. It’s not clear Pav was the best player in the comp for one year. One thing that puts GAJ, Carey, GAS and Lethal in GOAT convos is that all of them were clearly the best player in the comp for an extended period.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Has he? He’s a gun, no doubt about that and he’s elite but I would still choose Hawk for right now at least if I could only have one because of his general play

Interesting. You would have seen more of Hawk over the journey than me, and he is starting to get towards the twilight of his career, but seeing them side by side Cameron for me has shown he has that very rare match winning ability where he can absolutely rip games apart. Right now I’d take Cameron, although I agree Hawk does a lot of general things well like forward rucking, bollocking/blocking off ball and hitting up targets I50

 

[PhatBoy]

Interesting. You would have seen more of Hawk over the journey than me, and he is starting to get towards the twilight of his career, but seeing them side by side Cameron for me has shown he has that very rare match winning ability where he can absolutely rip games apart. Right now I’d take Cameron, although I agree Hawk does a lot of general things well like forward rucking, bollocking/blocking off ball and hitting up targets I50

Cameron can kick goals that others - Hawkins obviously among them - can’t. He can show flashes of eye catching brilliance others can’t.

he doesn’t have the full skill set of Hawkins though who is probably just behind him in terms of finding goals but is also our best ball user inside 50, a better than average ruck when the ball is forward, better at spotting up a teammate and generally a better decision maker. Cameron definitely has the tools and as you say - and even on Friday last week he did it before he went off - he CAN rip a game apart probably better than any key forward in the game when he’s on

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Is the fact that Bont might win the Brownlow this year, has been an elite player since 2015, but doesn't have that same reputation-building higher or lower? What are we actually comparing? I would argue that a player as a legend goes beyond performing on-field, so I say there's no doubt that EJ is still the greatest.

I think we are trying to compare the 'myths and legends" of the players.

But that is hard to do for modern players as their careers are still not over and not enough time has passed from their retirement.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Greene is an absolute gun - one of the top 10 most valuable players in the comp this year, maybe top 5.

But Cameron averages more goals and more possessions than Hawkins, Riewoldt and Kennedy, generally considered the 3 best key forwards of the era. He has shown at Geelong this year that he is a more dominant and valuable forward than Hawk. No one puts Greene in the convo for best forward/mid of his era, although he certainly is (and arguably no 1) this year, whereas Cameron would have a claim to no 2 spot behind Buddy playing the hardest position on the ground.

Greene is a ripper, and I would say both at their best are just about the 2 best match winning forwards in the AFL, but Cameron has to have him for consistency as GWS’s greatest player

FWIW, I was not purporting that Greene be rated higher than Cameron. In fact, I highlighted that your conclusions (of Cameron over Greene) are reasonable. Rather, I was simply reminding people of how Toby Greene started as many seem to be of the belief that his elite status is a recent emergence and that he started slowly when in reality, he started with arguably the best rookie season of the AFL era.

 

[Goomba1973]

Forgive my lack of history, im a watcher from 89 onwards and i'll consider the VFL/AFL history only as it's all i know;

Club - GOAT - Challenger

Ade - Roo/McLeod - None
Bris - Voss - None
Carl - Nicholls - None
Coll - Buckley/Coventry - Pendles
Ess - Hird - None
Frem - Pavlich - Fyfe
Geel - Farmer/Ablett - Selwood
GCS - Ablett Jnr - Miller/Rowell
GWS - Greene - None
Hawks - Lethal - None
Kang - Carey - None
Melb - Flower - None
Port - Wanganeen - None
Rich - Hart/Bartlett - Dusty
StK - Lockett - None
Swans - Skilton
WBD - EJ - None
WCE - Judd - JJK

Pretty good list

Although Fyfe has the 2 midfield Charlies to his name, Pavlich is still head and shoulders above him , had he played for a Vic club I think he would be held in the same esteem as Carey and Hird.

Selwood is a gun captain and a very very good player without any doubt, but GAB Snr is god and would dominate no matter the era he played in, not even Jnr has surpassed him at Geelong he is the best player I have ever seen and I doubt anyone can take that mantle away from him.

When the Bont is done and dusted with his career he will be in the same breath as EJ.

I have Peter Matera , Dean Cox and Ben Cousins at West Coast ahead of Judd as WC best ever, had Judd stayed then I would probably think differently ( if we count the best 5years then definitely Judd) JKK will be a top 3 ATG when he finishes.

Agree with the rest though.

 

[citizen-erased]

Pretty good list

Although Fyfe has the 2 midfield Charlies to his name, Pavlich is still head and shoulders above him , had he played for a Vic club I think he would be held in the same esteem as Carey and Hird.

Selwood is a gun captain and a very very good player without any doubt, but GAB Snr is god and would dominate no matter the era he played in, not even Jnr has surpassed him at Geelong he is the best player I have ever seen and I doubt anyone can take that mantle away from him.

When the Bont is done and dusted with his career he will be in the same breath as EJ.

I have Peter Matera , Dean Cox and Ben Cousins at West Coast ahead of Judd as WC best ever, had Judd stayed then I would probably think differently ( if we count the best 5years then definitely Judd) JKK will be a top 3 ATG when he finishes.

Agree with the rest though.

I was very torn on who to pick for WCE. So many guns.

So reluctant to undermine the legend that is EJ with recency bias of Bont.....as good as he is

 

[Carringbush2010]

But Pav, like Riewoldt and Brown, was never considered the clear best player in the comp for a number of years. It’s not clear Pav was the best player in the comp for one year (though he was right up there). Neither was Fyfe, Hird, Voss, Danger, Dusty or Judd. One thing that puts GAJ, Carey, GAS and Lethal in GOAT convos is that all of them were clearly the best player in the comp for an extended period.

Probably coz Pav didn't get the same media exposure.

 

[RichLeMonde]

FWIW, I was not purporting that Greene be rated higher than Cameron. In fact, I highlighted that your conclusions (of Cameron over Greene) are reasonable. Rather, I was simply reminding people of how Toby Greene started as many seem to be of the belief that his elite status is a recent emergence and that he started slowly when in reality, he started with arguably the best rookie season of the AFL era.

Yes, thanks for highlighting that - certainly extremely impressive what Greene did as an 18 year old and not something I’d picked up

 

[RichLeMonde]

Probably coz Pav didn't get the same media exposure.

Ok, forget the media - for how many years do you believe Pav was clearly the best player in the comp?

FWIW I rate Pav’s career fractionally ahead of both Riewoldt’s and Brown’s, but to put him in the same convo as Carey and GAJ is laughable. GAJ won 5 MVPs - the next highest is 2! And Carey was clearly the best player in the comp in 95, 96, 98 and 99, and arguably in 94, and against incredibly stiff competition (GAS, Plugger, Hird, Diesel)

 

[PhatBoy]

Ok, forget the media - for how many years do you believe Pav was clearly the best player in the comp?

FWIW I rate Pav’s career fractionally ahead of both Riewoldt’s and Brown’s, but to put him in the same convo as Carey and GAJ is laughable. GAJ won 5 MVPs - the next highest is 2! And Carey was clearly the best player in the comp in 95, 96, 98 and 99, and arguably in 94, and against incredibly stiff competition (GAS, Plugger, Hird, Diesel)

This. Pav was the definition of consistency and was a truly fantastic player, and I personally always had him as the best of the three power forwards of their era (roughy probably hard done by not to be considered but his peak was a bit later than theirs, and Buddy is a different player altogether). But i didn’t fear him ripping us apart and at no stage did I think of him as the best player in the league. More a player who you just knew every time you played them, would more than likely win his match up so you had to find other ways to beat them

 

[RichLeMonde]

This. Pav was the definition of consistency and was a truly fantastic player, and I personally always had him as the best of the three power forwards of their era (roughy probably hard done by not to be considered but his peak was a bit later than theirs, and Buddy is a different player altogether). But i didn’t fear him ripping us apart and at no stage did I think of him as the best player in the league. More a player who you just knew every time you played them, would more than likely win his match up so you had to find other ways to beat them

Funnily enough I remember arguing with a mate about who was the best player in the comp in mid 2007. I was arguing for Pav, my Cats supporting mate told me to watch more Geelong games and to keep an eye out for a bloke named Gary Ablett Junior, who was proving to be a bit more than a fat flashy fwd pocket which was my estimation to that point

 

[La Dispute]

Jack Steele

9

Jack Steele

Age

28

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

8.7

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

6.8

5star

CL

3.6

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

5.0

2star

HB

11.8

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

6.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

a good chance to surpass Robert Harvey and Rowan Wulfe

 

[HairyO]

Would Scarlett and Enright be ahead of Selwood and Hawkins?

GAS is clearly ahead of all 4. Not sure if GAJ is if you only look at his 4 peak years at Geelong.

 

[HairyO]

Jack Steele a good chance to surpass Robert Harvey and Rowan Wulfe

Harvey was AA 6 or 7 years in a row and won 2 Brownlows.

What has Steele done to come close in his 6 or 7 years ?

 

[PhatBoy]

Funnily enough I remember arguing with a mate about who was the best player in the comp in mid 2007. I was arguing for Pav, my Cats supporting mate told me to watch more Geelong games and to keep an eye out for a bloke named Gary Ablett Junior, who was proving to be a bit more than a fat flashy fwd pocket which was my estimation to that point

honestly after the disappointment of 06 I started to lose a bit of interest in our fortunes at that stage and thought we were destined for more mediocrity. After we started to win a few games including that thrashing of you blokes I basically did a double take when the pundits started to talk up Gary as the best player in the comp. by about round 10 I was put in my place

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Would Scarlett and Enright be ahead of Selwood and Hawkins?

GAS is clearly ahead of all 4. Not sure if GAJ is if you only look at his 4 peak years at Geelong.

Scarlett
Selwood
Enright
Hawkins

That's the order.

 

[La Dispute]

Harvey was AA 6 or 7 years in a row and won 2 Brownlows.

What has Steele done to come close in his 6 or 7 years ?

Only needs to win a premiership and hit AA every couple of years to become St Kilda’s undisputed GOAT

 

[simba_]

justin westhoff

39

Justin Westhoff

Age

37

Ht

199cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.4

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.9

4star

CL

0.8

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.4

2star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.9

3star

CL

0.8

3star

D

12.0

3star

K

8.4

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.8

3star

is the goat

 

[HairyO]

Scarlett
Selwood
Enright
Hawkins

That's the order.

Enright was a great half back flanker, but I do wonder if Hawkins ends up ahead. Maybe Hawkins had too many quiet seasons but his last 5 pr 6 have been very good.

Then of course the comparison comes to how good are any of the above with GAS and GAJ. I would have GAS first, GAJ below Scarlett, but ahead of Selwood and Enright. Maybe.

GAJ had 4 brilliant years but he was good not great until 2007. And similar his 2 years back, then his final year was the farewell.

 

[RichLeMonde]

honestly after the disappointment of 06 I started to lose a bit of interest in our fortunes at that stage and thought we were destined for more mediocrity. After we started to win a few games including that thrashing of you blokes I basically did a double take when the pundits started to talk up Gary as the best player in the comp. by about round 10 I was put in my place

Yep. Me too

 

[The_Eagles]

No way Pav is up there with Carey Abletts Franklin whoever said that
Pav is getting nostalgia and sentimental votes from the Fremantle faithful
He’s on Brown Tredrea Riewoldt tier
Fyfe has AA 2011 2013 2020 squad and should’ve really been in the team, to go with his 2014, 2015, 2019 and he was clear 2018 Brownlow favourite but then got injured

He was MVP back to back
His peak play is higher and he’s still got 5 years left I reckon, he is the FFC goat
Pav was awesome in 2005 and 2007 and great second half of 2012 when he’s was CHF
His midfield play was good but not great

 

[Goomba1973]

I was very torn on who to pick for WCE. So many guns.

So reluctant to undermine the legend that is EJ with recency bias of Bont.....as good as he is

EJ who was always about the dogs or the big V, would have loved to have been surpassed ....
WCE have had a lot of guns in their day, Woosha keeps coming up in my mind not as the best players but for what he did as a captain , what he did as a coach , and what he did to Dermie