Analysis “Hawthorn are middle of the road at best” discussion

[Fluro Boots]

we're basically at 2004, performing poorly with a fair few older blokes struggling. I think we're a little bit better off though in that we have a mix of young and older guys that are proven with still some footy in them, Gunston and Shiels, Mitchell, O'meara, and Wingard, Sicily, Hardwick, Scrimshaw and now Will Day on the younger side of the new look side. What is needed though is a targeted cull of the older blokes to maintain some stability while retaining some senior presence and competitiveness.

*We don't just need a rebuild, we need a massive clear out like 2004 (25 delistings in 3 seasons), the people in charge have completely crap the bed for the last 5 years at least, but they did halt their insanity for the 2019 draft at least, small blessing

Agree on this point, there's about 4 of the older blokes I'd finish up this year but wouldn't stop there, Need to make some calls on blokes that have been on the list 3-4-5 years, there either going to be in your best 26 odd or they're not and your trade or delist them and find the next one.

 

[Zack]

We've been middle of the road since Roughie went down with cancer in 2016. He was our hope.

We were a possible chance b4. that but haven't been since.

However we continually overachieve, which makes life harder, don't think we don't, AFL media ppl who have a go at Clarko know we've overachieved.
But it also means we don't have great picks in the draft so we have to go and trade.

Currently Clarko is deliberately p*ssing off AFL hierarchy continuously which shows he feels pressure, he shouldn't.

If we take a dive this year even in a hard draft as they haven't played so be it. If your not a chance to win GF's then don't be there.

My feeling is if the rumours are true, with Bruest and Impey back our fastest two players he's hoping to see a jump in performance.

If it doesn't work, not necessarily the first week but by week four, shut up shop and set up for next year when a few other players will excel over real football quarters time.... even though I'd argue that is 25 minutes.

 

[Billyc]

I think he will see an improvement and I think Breust and Impey are two guys who can have an impact. They are effective players (when on), and we don’t have many you really impact games.

My concern is that we will sneak a few wins in the run home, finish mid ladder again and people will be deluded into thinking we are closer than we are (I’ve been guilty of it in recent years but can now see what it was). I think we are a mid-ladder side, not a bottom 4 side. But in some respects finishing bottom 4 might be what is best for us to force the changes that are required to challenge for top 4 again.

 

[KOLOKOTRONIS]

The sooner the season is finished the better. It’s a ridiculous season and we haven’t adapted well at all. It’s annoying to see. We have been spoilt and the club has been able to produce hope year after year. We need to bottom out for a season or two. It may not be the hawthorn way, however we need that final reality check and reset. I’ve seen enough and it stings too hard.

We need to reassess and develop a list for 2023. Clarkson will do the right thing and give the reigns to Mitchell. He has done very well and brought the club the respect it so rightly deserves after a lean period following our previous glory years.

We need to prepare to contend. Middle of the road is not the answer.

KOLOKOTRONIS

 

[PenAndPaper]

Honestly I'm not as worried as some on here.

We have had a relatively hard draw so far, beaten Richmond & Brisbane. Sure we have looked bad in our losses but we have also played in some wet conditions, on smaller grounds & without most of our forward line with Patton, Lewis, O'Brien, Breust, Ceglar (removes fwd option for McEvoy) all missing games at various times through injury.

Our midfield has been relatively poor but again that does get fixed with forwards coming back which then allows us to play Wingard more midfield as well as having Breust rotate in there.

Our defence imo has been pretty good, it's just with the amount & quality of ball getting in there that is a worry which again is down to our mids.

I think getting a few back in the coming weeks & playing in WA on a big ground in (presumably) decent weather is going to show our true form.

 

[Kanga Commando]

Honestly I'm not as worried as some on here.

We have had a relatively hard draw so far, beaten Richmond & Brisbane. Sure we have looked bad in our losses but we have also played in some wet conditions, on smaller grounds & without most of our forward line with Patton, Lewis, O'Brien, Breust, Ceglar (removes fwd option for McEvoy) all missing games at various times through injury.

Our midfield has been relatively poor but again that does get fixed with forwards coming back which then allows us to play Wingard more midfield as well as having Breust rotate in there.

Our defence imo has been pretty good, it's just with the amount & quality of ball getting in there that is a worry which again is down to our mids.

I think getting a few back in the coming weeks & playing in WA on a big ground in (presumably) decent weather is going to show our true form.

Will you still feel the same way if Carlton beat us ? ( genuine question )

 

[Luv_our_club]

The sooner the season is finished the better. It’s a ridiculous season and we haven’t adapted well at all. It’s annoying to see. We have been spoilt and the club has been able to produce hope year after year. We need to bottom out for a season or two. It may not be the hawthorn way, however we need that final reality check and reset. I’ve seen enough and it stings too hard.

We need to reassess and develop a list for 2023. Clarkson will do the right thing and give the reigns to Mitchell. He has done very well and brought the club the respect it so rightly deserves after a lean period following our previous glory years.

We need to prepare to contend. Middle of the road is not the answer.

KOLOKOTRONIS

I want to promote the view that bottoming out is not against the Hawthorn way, because:

- We are about flags, not mediocrity.

- We ride the bumps with a grin = bring on the pain if it leads to success.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Honestly I'm not as worried as some on here.

We have had a relatively hard draw so far, beaten Richmond & Brisbane. Sure we have looked bad in our losses but we have also played in some wet conditions, on smaller grounds & without most of our forward line with Patton, Lewis, O'Brien, Breust, Ceglar (removes fwd option for McEvoy) all missing games at various times through injury.

Our midfield has been relatively poor but again that does get fixed with forwards coming back which then allows us to play Wingard more midfield as well as having Breust rotate in there.

Our defence imo has been pretty good, it's just with the amount & quality of ball getting in there that is a worry which again is down to our mids.

I think getting a few back in the coming weeks & playing in WA on a big ground in (presumably) decent weather is going to show our true form.

Need to win 7 from 9 I'd say to finals, so even if we show some form it'll likely be all to little to late I'm afraid.

 

[Walshawk]

Need to win 7 from 9 I'd say to finals, so even if we show some form it'll likely be all to little to late I'm afraid.

With our poor %, ten wins might not be enough. At worst we need to beat Blues and Freo in the Perth hub to be any chance.

 

[Walshawk]

I want to promote the view that bottoming out is not against the Hawthorn way, because:

- We are about flags, not mediocrity.

- We ride the bumps with a grin = bring on the pain if it leads to success.

We don’t need to try to bottom out, it is happening naturally due to the lack of talent on our list.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Will you still feel the same way if Carlton beat us ? ( genuine question )

Nope, I'll concede there is something that needs to change particularly if Breust, Impey, Ceglar & O'Brien all play.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Need to win 7 from 9 I'd say to finals, so even if we show some form it'll likely be all to little to late I'm afraid.

I agree, but this season has not been kind to how we generally play through a season tbh

 

[Kanga Commando]

Nope, I'll concede there is something that needs to change particularly if Breust, Impey, Ceglar & O'Brien all play.

Well - they are all in.... Lets see..
I'm not confident. On paper we are better. But the mojo is gone..

 

[PenAndPaper]

Well - they are all in.... Lets see..
I'm not confident. On paper we are better. But the mojo is gone..

Well that's got me up & about. I reckon having those couple of ins is going to bring the mojo back.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Well that's got me up & about. I reckon having those couple of ins is going to bring the mojo back.

We've been pants with Ceglar and TOB in the side for over a season now. Impey and Breust are great, mind you.

 

[PenAndPaper]

We've been pants with Ceglar and TOB in the side for over a season now. Impey and Breust are great, mind you.

Well that's just not true. Ceglar & TOB were fantastic in the last few games of last season when we played Ceglar as our #1 & had O'Brien playing deeper forward. O'Brien kicked 12 goals in the last 5 games & was having good score involvements in those games as well.

 

[Luv_our_club]

We don’t need to try to bottom out, it is happening naturally due to the lack of talent on our list.

Well, you can say the same about North for the last 20 years but they still resisted that truth and spent the whole time trying to remain between 8th and 12th.

 

[Walshawk]

Well, you can say the same about North for the last 20 years but they still resisted that truth and spent the whole time trying to remain between 8th and 12th.

Exactly. Let’s try to avoid that.

 

[LMGjr]

Is it possible that what has changed, in the true sense, is the supporter?

Ok, what do I mean by that.

It seems to me that we are now so personally invested in the club, because we think we have all this extra information at the tips of our fingers that we know better, without taking into account intangibles, or that we simply forget that sometimes the opposition is just better, on the day, in that year, etc, this applies to all supporters of all clubs by the way.

Instead, now it’s conspiracy theories abound, bias, manipulation, drugs, salary cap cheating, everything other then being humble enough to admit that you know, the other team played better on the day.

It’s a systemic problem with how everything is now reported Versus just saying, “you know what, we got beat, the ump made mistakes, but I still follow my club, see what happens next week”.

Why so dramatic a shift in attitudes from supporters that it actually wrecks their week, is it because of operation payback that now because we put our money where our mouths are (this goes for every club) that we think we can take everything personally, because we’ve invested our cash in it?

The fat cats behind the scenes are always going to make money off this, no matter what, so why hand over your cash?

Lets go with the conspiracy side, but from a different point of view, that now our own money is invested it’s changed the way we support the game because we EXPECT a return from our investment (cash) rather then giving credit where credit is due, to players from the opposition who tore us a new one, in another words being humble.

There will always be corruption, in everything, it’s just a fact of life.

Are we a middle of the road side, time will tell in a season that’s kinda not a season, depending on your own point of view. But geez I now find the change in the way we support our clubs "interesting" is all I can say, rather what comes to mind.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Is it possible that what has changed, in the true sense, is the supporter?

Ok, what do I mean by that.

It seems to me that we are now so personally invested in the club, because we think we have all this extra information at the tips of our fingers that we know better, without taking into account intangibles, or that we simply forget that sometimes the opposition is just better, on the day, in that year, etc, this applies to all supporters of all clubs by the way.

Instead, now it’s conspiracy theories abound, bias, manipulation, drugs, salary cap cheating, everything other then being humble enough to admit that you know, the other team played better on the day.

It’s a systemic problem with how everything is now reported Versus just saying, “you know what, we got beat, the ump made mistakes, but I still follow my club, see what happens next week”.

Why so dramatic a shift in attitudes from supporters that it actually wrecks their week, is it because of operation payback that now because we put our money where our mouths are (this goes for every club) that we think we can take everything personally, because we’ve invested our cash in it?

The fat cats behind the scenes are always going to make money off this, no matter what, so why hand over your cash?

Lets go with the conspiracy side, but from a different point of view, that now our own money is invested it’s changed the way we support the game because we EXPECT a return from our investment (cash) rather then giving credit where credit is due, to players from the opposition who tore us a new one, in another words being humble.

There will always be corruption, in everything, it’s just a fact of life.

Are we a middle of the road side, time will tell in a season that’s kinda not a season, depending on your own point of view. But geez I now find the change in the way we support our clubs "interesting" is all I can say, rather what comes to mind.

Is that a yes or no?

 

[Luv_our_club]

Exactly. Let’s try to avoid that.

Yeah, i think part of that means acceptance from supporters and the club that we need to make decisions that will result in us not being "competitive" for the next few seasons or so.

You could call it a "choice", or "acceptance", or the "absence of denial".

In short, bottoming out doesn't just happen by mistake. It needs a shift in thinking.

 

[LMGjr]

Is that a yes or no?

Actually read it mate and you'll find out.

Or since you want so black and white a answer go support the pies.

Is having a black and white jumper racist?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Actually read it mate and you'll find out.

Or since you want so black and white a answer go support the pies.

Is having a black and white jumper racist?

Probably is.

 

[Walshawk]

Yeah, i think part of that means acceptance from supporters and the club that we need to make decisions that will result in us not being "competitive" for the next few seasons or so.

You could call it a "choice", or "acceptance", or the "absence of denial".

In short, bottoming out doesn't just happen by mistake. It needs a shift in thinking.

Clarko just needs to announce that we are focussing in youth in 2021, delist our older players and list cloggers, and the rest is self explanatory.

 

[LMGjr]

Clarko just needs to announce that we are focussing in youth in 2021, delist our older players and list cloggers, and the rest is self explanatory.

Is it really that simple.

I'm applying for the job.

And why exactly does he need to announce this?

Are you going to stop handing over your hard earned if he doesn't?

I'm not trying to be personal mate, but Clarko doesn't need to announce s**t.