2004 Squad Preview

[Asgardian]

That time of year again when I do the club list previews. It's not a plsstake, I try to be honest, some assessments You'll agree with, some you'll hate, that's cool, let's discuss them, but no flaming please, that's only for morons

Nathan Buckley:- Huge motor, huge talent, got a Browny to go with all the others now
Scott Burns:- This guy can't even spell fear, kamikazi warrior still going strong
James Clement:- Lost the handle a bit in 2003, more defensive to cover for team-mates
Cameron Cloke:- Yet to get an AFL game
Jason Cloke:- Seems keen to play ala Leppitsch, aint good enough yet, if ever?
Richard Cole:- Can go leather chasing, seems to lose concentration, yet to cement spot
Tom Davidson:- Bad injury at wrong time, when is a good time???, hopefully he'll get a go
Leon Davis:- Flashes of talent are great, needs to do it more often to satisfy Malthouse
Alan Didak:- Kinda laconic player, Allen Jakovich attitude per se, got the talent
Josh Fraser:- Lacks the grunt to be a 100% ruckman, okay at this stage forward/rucking
Brent Hall:- New kid, yet to see him play
Brodie Holland:- Pies must stop him from being an idiot, or he'll be lost to footy
Ben Johnson:- Smart player, using "stealth technology"
David D. King:- Yet to get an AFL game, or Grand Final...lol
Ben Kinnear:- Occasional reasonable game isn't good enough at this level, back up at best
Paul Licuria:- Pulls in big possession numbers, doesn't mind the tough stuff
Tarkyn Lockyer:- Another knee re-co victim, let's hope he makes it back successfully
Matthew Lokan:- A surprise for some, but I picked it (gloat), has a good hard edge
Ryan Lonie:- Lacks 100% application, unless changes happen, will be trade bait
Mark McGough:- Already is trade bait, has talent, but very little pace
Steven McKee:- Clumsy dinosaur, has size, but lacks the requisite physical presence
Billy Morrison:- New kid, yet to see him play
Luke Mullins:- Yet to get an AFL game
Bo Nixon:- Yet to get an AFL game
Shane O'Bree:- Reliable, tough mid-fielder, can tag plus create
Simon Prestigiacomo:- Still a good defender, but the Pies seemed confused about him
Guy Richards:- They must like what they've seen so far, yet to play an AFL game
Anthony Rocca:- Could be the dumbest bloke playing today, lots of talent, small motor
Julian Rowe:- New kid, yet to see him play
Luke Shackleton:- Yet to get an AFL game
Brayden Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Heath Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Rhyce Shaw:- Surprised me, put together some good games, some poor ones too.
Dane Swan:- Need to see more, doesn't look a natural, but has grunt in the little I've seen
Chris Tarrant:- The kind of player that'll still have potential when he's of an age to retire
Shane Wakelin:- Still 2nd best Wakelin, makes him a lot better than most defenders
Tristen Walker:- Raw, a bit of an athlete learning footy
Andrew Williams:- 2003 proved me correct, a dud that the Magpies just don't need
Shane Woewodin:- Fantastic pick up by the Pies, compliments an already solid midfield

Rookies:

Dean Benson}
Justin Crow}
David Fanning} Yet to see any of these Rookie Kids play in AFL
Zane Leonard}
Nick Maxwell}


I cannot see any overnight improvements to the Collingwood list, which is a tad strange, seeing that they have only just missed out on the flag for the previous 2 seasons.

To take the few steps needed to win the flag, they needed some small improvements, why didn't they chase them? Obviously many eggs were in the Nick Stevens basket, but when that fell through, they were bereft of alternative plans.

Still, a club with this much talent doesn't self-destruct, look for the Pies to again be around the mark in 2004 season.

 

[hotpie]

No insight in that "preview" at all.

Sorry that you wasted your time.

 

[jefffff34]

You have no idea what you are talking about if you reckon Clement lost his way in 2003.

I failed to see a reason to read the rest.

 

[ZimZum]

Not being a Collingwood supporter, I thought it was very accurate. Good to see someone being honest about their team, not just hero worshipping.

 

[FIGJAM]

That was well down on your previous reviews Asgard.

Quite ignorant in a number of assessments.

 

[Cyclops]

The usual fair assesment from Asgardian, if a little generous to Matty Lokan (of course he is a Port boy )

The call on Jason Cloke is harsh but fair-he wants to run off his man and play crashing breaking defense, and he also loves winning a one-on-one, but he lacks Leppa's pace.

Your ask "where will the improvement come from?". I guess we're banking on the kids, and with the youngest list in the league there's more chance than for any other side that we'll unearth some gold.

Lockyer and Davidson are back from recos, it'd be great for them both to get a go, but I know we can't bank on that.

Walker has had his year of headless chookery (how did we get away with playing such and unco youngster?), so now we will see how he starts growing into his titanic frame. Those games have given him an early taste that will help him make it...if he has it.

Cam Cloke is also on the horizon, and a couple of bigs in the draft mean we're well stocked for height.

Cole (like Shaw) had his worst game ever in the GF. Aside fromm that, his form has been a steady upward line (eg his finals vs Port and Brisbane were excellent brave and controlled). I think he will continue improving until he is a starting midfielfder in 2005 or 2006.

Some older players may improve too. The injuries to Wakes and Presti and the absence of McKee threw some pressure onto Clemo, but hopefully he'll get more help this year.

Stevens was a missed opportunity, but we've been pretty cautious in trades in 2002-2003 (a change from the wholesale bloodletting in 2000). He would've been a nice pick up, but I don' think we put all our eggs in that basket, in fact the deal failed because we didn't put enough eggs.

Didak is the icing on the cake, he's our dark horse, the punt on the future we need to avoid being a totally predictable Malthouse machine.

Leon Davis could be too, I hope he gets back on track after a personally unhappy year.

 

[jefffff34]

Originally posted by Asgardian
Nathan Buckley:- Huge motor, huge talent, got a Browny to go with all the others now
Scott Burns:- This guy can't even spell fear, kamikazi warrior still going strong
James Clement:- Lost the handle a bit in 2003, more defensive to cover for team-mates
Cameron Cloke:- Yet to get an AFL game
Jason Cloke:- Seems keen to play ala Leppitsch, aint good enough yet, if ever?
Richard Cole:- Can go leather chasing, seems to lose concentration, yet to cement spot
Tom Davidson:- Bad injury at wrong time, when is a good time???, hopefully he'll get a go
Leon Davis:- Flashes of talent are great, needs to do it more often to satisfy Malthouse
Alan Didak:- Kinda laconic player, Allen Jakovich attitude per se, got the talent
Josh Fraser:- Lacks the grunt to be a 100% ruckman, okay at this stage forward/rucking
Brent Hall:- New kid, yet to see him play
Brodie Holland:- Pies must stop him from being an idiot, or he'll be lost to footy
Ben Johnson:- Smart player, using "stealth technology"
David D. King:- Yet to get an AFL game, or Grand Final...lol
Ben Kinnear:- Occasional reasonable game isn't good enough at this level, back up at best
Paul Licuria:- Pulls in big possession numbers, doesn't mind the tough stuff
Tarkyn Lockyer:- Another knee re-co victim, let's hope he makes it back successfully
Matthew Lokan:- A surprise for some, but I picked it (gloat), has a good hard edge
Ryan Lonie:- Lacks 100% application, unless changes happen, will be trade bait
Mark McGough:- Already is trade bait, has talent, but very little pace
Steven McKee:- Clumsy dinosaur, has size, but lacks the requisite physical presence
Billy Morrison:- New kid, yet to see him play
Luke Mullins:- Yet to get an AFL game
Bo Nixon:- Yet to get an AFL game
Shane O'Bree:- Reliable, tough mid-fielder, can tag plus create
Simon Prestigiacomo:- Still a good defender, but the Pies seemed confused about him
Guy Richards:- They must like what they've seen so far, yet to play an AFL game
Anthony Rocca:- Could be the dumbest bloke playing today, lots of talent, small motor
Julian Rowe:- New kid, yet to see him play
Luke Shackleton:- Yet to get an AFL game
Brayden Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Heath Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Rhyce Shaw:- Surprised me, put together some good games, some poor ones too.
Dane Swan:- Need to see more, doesn't look a natural, but has grunt in the little I've seen
Chris Tarrant:- The kind of player that'll still have potential when he's of an age to retire
Shane Wakelin:- Still 2nd best Wakelin, makes him a lot better than most defenders
Tristen Walker:- Raw, a bit of an athlete learning footy
Andrew Williams:- 2003 proved me correct, a dud that the Magpies just don't need
Shane Woewodin:- Fantastic pick up by the Pies, compliments an already solid midfield

I've narrowed it down to who he rates, who he doesn't rate and who is in the middle.

Rates
Buckley
Burns
Johnson
Licuria
Lokan
O'Bree
Prestigiacomo
Tarrant
Woewodin

Doesn't Rate
Clement
Cole
Holland
Kinnear
Lonie
McGough
McKee
Williams

In the middle
J.Cloke
Davis
Didak
Fraser
Lockyer
Rocca
R.Shaw
Swan
Wakelin
Walker

You could have just posted the above.
That is not taking into account those that haven't played the game.

 

[Wrenny]

Ryan Lonie:- Lacks 100% application, unless changes happen, will be trade bait

Mate im a tiger and i love how this guy plays honestly aye. If you can get the word to Malthouse to trade him i will ask greg miller to have a look at him definatly. I suppose that you do have many players that play like lonie like ben johnson,Lokan,Cole etc they all are good running out of defence but if you wanna trade Lonie Tigerland will have him

 

[FIGJAM]

All's I gotta say is you know you're a good defender, when the only thing people ever talk about is your running goal.

Lonie is underrated.

 

[MarkT]

No point arguing the pros & cons of each player. You assessment is not too far off the mark except that you seem to under rate the impact of Rocca. Yes he is dumb but he is among the leagues most influential players and is Collingwood real match winner. He is far more consistant than given credit for. His poor games are very solid these days and his good games are out and out match winning.

Originally posted by Asgardian
I cannot see any overnight improvements to the Collingwood list,

Just from last season we have lost 3 players to retirement who didn't get a game (Molloy played a couple but only 1 where he wasn't beaten soundly) plus Scotland who can play but got little opportunity. He will be "replaced" by Lockyer. Most of Collingwood's improvement should come from Lonie and Didak who significantly under performed last year and from Cole, Shaw, Johnson and Fraser who are emerging players already inpacting games. Johnson will be a revelation to many this year. A lot of non Collingwood supporters see him as an unskilled battler. He is not a great kick but he has pace and can get the ball. His disposal is improving. I liken him to a fast Paul Licuria in many ways. Fraser is the Great White Hope. The success of Guy Richards is the most important element to making large gains. We also have Cameron Cloke who will be able to help in the ruck. McKee isn't good enough and shouldn't play but probably will.

Originally posted by Asgardian
To take the few steps needed to win the flag, they needed some small improvements, why didn't they chase them? Obviously many eggs were in the Nick Stevens basket, but when that fell through, they were bereft of alternative plans.

I never understood the Stevens thing. IMO had he not been a Collingwood supporter with parents a part of the club we would never have worried about him at all. I always though if we chased a midfielder it should have been Brown who I rate quite a bit higher and who is also more versatile. We don't really need midfielders in any event. Brown's forward work would have been an asset apart from the fact he could improve an already strong midfield.

Apart from a bit more midfield speed which would be handy, the only positional weakeness we need to fill was a strong quality tap ruckman and we failed yet again to chase down and get one. IMO we should have listed the rucks in the AFL from best to worst and thrown the crown jewels at the best and worked down the list until we shook something loose.

All in all we have a great list in terms of body types/heights/builds and age distribution. We have every position covered with an incumbant who has been good enough to be part of a GF side and a young replacement in the wings. With one of the youngest lists that is a very handy position to be in. The ruck being the exception. Ruck aside we have a group of talls who are exciting and will provide trade bait in a couple of years if we have excess (if they all make it).

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by FIGJAM
All's I gotta say is you know you're a good defender, when the only thing people ever talk about is your running goal.

Lonie is underrated.

Problem is he has under performed. he has not really had 1 game to rave about bar a couple of impressive 2002 finals as yet. I think he will be a very good wingman if we ever leave him to play there. IMO he isn't a defender. A running back maybe but not a defender.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Cyclops
Leon Davis could be too, I hope he gets back on track after a personally unhappy year.

I am almost out of patience. He should have made more im pact in 2002, let alone 2003. I know he had personal problems. 2004 is make or break. I wonder though if he'll even get enough opportunity now. I reckon our small forwards will comprise Didak and a resting midfielder with Johnson and Lockyer spending time in the midfield and down back. We'll play with 3 talls (Tarrant, Rocca, Fraser, davidson, Cloke), 2 smalls (Didak and a midfielder) and 1 extra back (Cloke, Shaw, Cole) like much of the last 2 to 3 years. That leaves Davis in the cold as he doesn't get it enough in the midfield.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by MarkT
That leaves Davis in the cold as he doesn't get it enough in the midfield.

By "enough", I presume you mean "at all".

Should never, ever, ever be allowed outside of the forward 50.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by MarkT
Problem is he has under performed. he has not really had 1 game to rave about bar a couple of impressive 2002 finals as yet. I think he will be a very good wingman if we ever leave him to play there. IMO he isn't a defender. A running back maybe but not a defender.

But when he plays back, how many bags does he have kicked on him. He's too talented to be a nullifying defender, but if that's the worst he's going to be, then that's fine by me.

I'd also prefer to see him be given more time on the wing. He was down last year in part I'd assume, for personal reasons. I hoped he'd step out in 2003 like he did in the finals of '02, but still he was an auto-selection and I never had an issue with that, because he was never bad. Just not great either.

He's cool.

 

[Asgardian]

Originally posted by Asgardian
Brayden Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Heath Shaw:- New kid, yet to see him play
Rhyce Shaw:- Surprised me, put together some good games, some poor ones too.

I cannot see any overnight improvements to the Collingwood list, which is a tad strange, seeing that they have only just missed out on the flag for the previous 2 seasons.

This is cool, we are discussing footy, which is a lot better than talking dress patterns.

The 3 Shaw lads mentioned above may well provide the improvement the Pies are searching for, but it is no where near a gold plated guarantee.

I don't mind admitting to an error, like I did so with Rhyce Shaw, he has turned out a lot better that I had previously given him credit for.

In my opinion there are no one standing up and shouting at me saying "I'm the reason the Pies will go one better and win the flag in 2004".

He may be there, but he aint obvious yet.

 

[NICK THE PIE MAN]

Cheers Chris.
Not a bad effort.

 

[Cyclops]

Re: Re: 2004 Squad Preview

Originally posted by Asgardian
This is cool, we are discussing footy, which is a lot better than talking dress patterns.

Whart's wrong with dress patterns? I suppose you've got something against bias-cut LBD's with shoestring straps (you know John Galliano style), and don't even get me started about taffeta....oops.

 

[Murray]

Want improvers this year?
Try these
Didak (will spend more time on and up the field)
Tarrant (still got heaps of improvement to come)
Lockyer (only 3 games last year)
Davidson WILL play seniors. Even 1 game is an vast improvement
Cole
R. Shaw

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by FIGJAM
But when he plays back, how many bags does he have kicked on him.

I don't think he gets slaughtered but by the same token he hasn’t been asked to mind many gun forwards either. IMO he just lacks a bit of presence at present. I rate him though and I'd love to see him left on the wing to be creative and worry oppositions. Lonie is one of our aces for 2004. If he plays to where I think he should he'll make us a better side by a decent margin. Lonie and Didak are in the same boat in many respects.

 

[MarkT]

Re: Re: 2004 Squad Preview

Originally posted by Asgardian
In my opinion there are no one standing up and shouting at me saying "I'm the reason the Pies will go one better and win the flag in 2004".

He may be there, but he aint obvious yet.

Didak, Lonie & Fraser of those with exposed form. Richards is a hope but I am not confident about him. Cam. Cloke, Davidson, King and maybe Brayden Shaw (maybe a year too early) are the untried players expected to provide a boost and Lockyer as a comeback player should add a bit. If half those are correct we'll improve a fair bit. Any improved player will add to the performance because we have lost nothing and no players have shown any indication that age will reduce their performance.

 

[FIGJAM]

Richie Cole is another who will progress.

Another preseason, a greater sense of belonging and his gradual improvement will escalate IMO. He has no discernable flaw to his game, other than the fact he's erratic. I think this is a mental thing and experience will see him become an excellent midfielder.

After being a bit pudgy last year, Bucks has stated Richie's in great shape. His arms are as thick as a Thai python!!

I think the improvement will come via Fraser (who will have fully recovered from 2002's OP), Didak, Johnson, Cole, Lonie and Lockyer.

Then you can throw in one or two "pleasant surprises", such as a first year player stepping up (Morrison, Hall), a second/third year player proving himself (King, Richards, Shakleton), or a formerly out of form/injured player finding his feet (McGough, Davidson).

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by FIGJAM
Richie Cole is another who will progress.

He hasn't won me yet. He was carried last year but showed some brief flashes. If he steps up it will be a bonus but a big one. I can't see him getting much midfield time though. He's behind quite a few.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by MarkT
He hasn't won me yet. He was carried last year but showed some brief flashes. If he steps up it will be a bonus but a big one. I can't see him getting much midfield time though. He's behind quite a few.

Not much midfield time this year. 2005+.

With Kingy coming on, Shaw, Lokan, Johnno, et. al. surely we have enough running backs and Cole is a natural winger and deserves a bit of time in his prefered position.

Malthouse just loves playing blokes out of position. Sometimes I don't think it's especially beneficial, but who am I to argue!?!

I have every confidence in Richie Cole.

 

[Jabso]

Why is Rocca dumb?
Is there something I'm missing?
Has he publicly said something dumb or done something dumb (apart from the Lade elbow) to prove his lack off intelligence? Have you studied IQ tests or something?
He may look like a dumb caveman but I don't see why people can claim him to be dumb, he has a very smart footy brain.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by jabso
Has he publicly said something dumb or done something dumb (apart from the Lade elbow)

Asgard is of course a dumb Port supporter.

Rocca's quite well spoken in his after match addresses and on other shows. Seems relatively intelligent.

As for footy, one stoopid mistake does not mean he's stoopid.