Draft Review 2005 - Redo the 2005 Draft

[TownleyTime]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Leigh Matthews hit the nail on the head last nite. Said Pendlebury & Thomas were the only elite players out of the 05' draft.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Your arrogance is amazing.

Not nearly as amazing as your propensity to make subjective, unsubstantiated comments and then get upset when they're dismissed as such. If you can't back up your claims, be prepared for them to be rubbished; or perhaps Bay 13 is more your type place.

 

[Trendy Micro]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Leigh Matthews hit the nail on the head last nite. Said Pendlebury & Thomas were the only elite players out of the 05' draft.

Really I don't remember him saying that at all.

IIRC he said that Pendlebury and Thomas looked like they would transition from very good players to Elite.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Not nearly as amazing as your propensity to make subjective, unsubstantiated comments and then get upset when they're dismissed as such. If you can't back up your claims, be prepared for them to be rubbished; or perhaps Bay 13 is more your type place.

You pompous goose! Your posts reek of a self obsessed wannabe intellectual whose over-healthy self belief is unfortunately not supported by any abilities. Read back over the thread, many decent arguments have been put forward as valid as any you have countered with. The majority of the forum disagrees with you and this obviously upsets you. Perhaps over time your minority position on this topic may prove to be correct. I doubt it!

I might head down south to Bay13, I'll pass you on the Hume on your way to Dreamworld!

 

[TownleyTime]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Really I don't remember him saying that at all.

IIRC he said that Pendlebury and Thomas looked like they would transition from very good players to Elite.

Said it on AW. Pendlebury is a bonafide gun but Thomas was the guy who won us the final on Friday nite. He is a special player.

 

[Gone Critical]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Reid looks like being a good player. Brown is solid but wont be a star and is out for a year with a knee reco and you never know how players will come back from that.

Dawes is average playing in a great team and gets the second best tall each week at best whilst being fed by great mids.
Dick cant get on the park.
Goldsack is average and a roleplayer. Would be bottom 5 picked in any teams best 22.
Macaffer see above.
Wellingham. Really good young player and a great pickup especially considering what you paid.

I basically consider any draft where a team acquires 3 solid best 22 players a success and you have done that in Reid, Wellingham and Brown if fit. Dick may never be right and his position in the team is probably covered by krakeour atm.

Macaffer and goldsack are borderline 22 players.

Marty clarke who? He's done what exactly?

Everyone talks about collingwoods great depth but they really dont have any.
Collingwood have 27 players on their entire list of 48 who have actually played a game for them. Lets break down some of those players. These numbers also include.
Dick: 2 games in 2010 and very injury prone
Mccarthy: 2 games in 2010 and 10 for career so far
Wood: 4 games last year and has done absolutely zero in his career so far to show himself as anything other than a depth quality ruckman.
Brown:Out for the entire season

Furthermore there are other borderline players within their list as well who according to the numbers shown have to be within their best 22 atm.
Toovey: A contributer but will always at best be borderline 22 and won't win you games.
Goldsack: Same as above.
Leigh Brown: At best a poor mans Quinten Lynch.
Blair: Off the rookie list and has played 12 games for you and sure while 1 of those games might have produced a premiership none of the games really suggest superstar player.

So take away those 4 players and you have 23 players on the current collingwood list who have at best shown they are or could be quality players for them so far as well as 2 experienced recruits over the off season.
1. Tarrant: Close to the end of his career. Was so close in fact he was going to retire if he couldnt get to collingwood in the offseason.
2. Krakeour: 3 years out of senior afl, was an average afl player when last on a list and has served an 18 month prison term.

On top of all these things Johnson, Davis and Jolly are 30 this year and Tarrant 31. As it stands even 1-2 major injuries and collingwood could slide a long way in a similar fashion to 91. There are some juicy odds out there on collingwood missing the top 4. I'll also point out yes my club finished 16th last year and yes we seem to have huge issues with disposal and decision making. This post isn't a rag about collingwood or a comparison about clubs just about where i see your list for one and for you and your other collingwood supporters not to get too cocky yet. Remember the end of 06 we even had fremantle supporters talking about a west coast dynasty and look how that panned out. Even geelong in an amazing 4 year period still only managed to pull 2 premierships out of it. You have one from 1 good year.

Nice try at undersell

You may choose to say I am a "cocky" Collingwood supporter but claiming the 2006 draft as being "not a bad year " for us hardly seems over the top.

Fast forward 4 seasons and you have 6 premiership players 3 of whom were FB CHB and FF. It hardly a criticism that some of the 6 are down the pecking order when it comes to selection. Cant all be top 10.

Dick would have probably made it also if he was fit and Marty Clarke was v promising before he got homesick for Ireland. Was close to GAA best player last season and Collingwood tried v hard to keep him and are still working strongly behind the scenes to get him back.

Even if you accepted your assessments of each individual here it would still be a stellar year of drafting.

The best you could come up with is Reid "looks like a good player". Dawes doesnt even make it as best 22 in your rankings.

As I said you can call me "cocky" but I will stand by what I said. I agree we are no certainties to be successful this year and the odds favour us not going back to back. Its tough enogh to win one , no one is gifted the next.

Still we are a chance in 2011 and if we win I expect the class of 2006 will have made a big contribution.

Would you upgrade the 2006 draft to "not a bad year" for Collingwood if that were the case?

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

You pompous goose! Your posts reek of a self obsessed wannabe intellectual whose over-healthy self belief is unfortunately not supported by any abilities. Read back over the thread, many decent arguments have been put forward as valid as any you have countered with. The majority of the forum disagrees with you and this obviously upsets you. Perhaps over time your minority position on this topic may prove to be correct. I doubt it!

Obviously going by this little rant mate, it has you quite upset indeed. Don't get annoyed that I dismiss your opinions as baseless when you can't back them up, or when I show your citations as not quite spot on ie Sheehan's top 50.

I've laid out my logic and backed it up; you don't have to agree with it, you can label it as bias - despite GC having basically agreed with me - but there's no need to carry on like this just because you encounter someone who, very reasonably at that, decides to remain undecided on a final draft re-do at the minute.

It's like all the Collingwood n00bs getting upset when people don't select Sidebottom as the best from his draft. Get over it!

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Obviously going by this little rant mate, it has you quite upset indeed. Don't get annoyed that I dismiss your opinions as baseless .

I'm more amused than annoyed my simian friend. Your arrogance to dismiss all contrary points of view to yours as baseless despite being overwhelmingly on the least popular view of this subjective debate does little to change many people's generalisation of the typical Carlton supporter.
Enjoy your next two weeks for this is the time when you can continue to dream and your fanciful imagination can continue to overrate your list and players.
Reality is only a fortnight away!

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I call some of your opinions baseless simply because you don't back them up.

If you haven't anything to add other than the same old unsubstantiated shit jabbers, I'm going to call it here. Hope you enjoy the upcoming season

 

[The OBSTacle]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Leigh Matthews hit the nail on the head last nite. Said Pendlebury & Thomas were the only elite players out of the 05' draft.

I get the impression that Lethal is becoming senile.

Andrew Swallow is still the only player from this draft to finish an AFL season at number one, in any statistical category.

 

[TownleyTime]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Pendlebury at #10.
Thomas at #20.
Murphy at #27.

Both Mike & Lethal rate Thomas ahead of Murphy.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I call some of your opinions baseless simply because you don't back them up.

If you haven't anything to add other than the same old unsubstantiated shit jabbers, I'm going to call it here. Hope you enjoy the upcoming season

I think some of the problems with your line of reasoning is that if it were switched the other way around, and we had Murphy and you had taken Pendles number 1 you would be busting a nut trying to convince all and sundry that Pendles is clearly a better player than Murphy. Don't try and tell me that your love for Murphy and belief in his further development would be the same if he wasn't wearing the navy blue.

For what it's worth, I think Murphy will be a superstar, but Pendles is already one, so you don't say they are still neck and neck, you say Pendlebury is better for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Murphy caught and passed him by the end of their careers. I wouldn't even be surprised if Dale Thomas caught and passed both of them by the end of their careers.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Reid looks like being a good player. Brown is solid but wont be a star and is out for a year with a knee reco and you never know how players will come back from that.

Dawes is average playing in a great team and gets the second best tall each week at best whilst being fed by great mids.
Dick cant get on the park.
Goldsack is average and a roleplayer. Would be bottom 5 picked in any teams best 22.
Macaffer see above.
Wellingham. Really good young player and a great pickup especially considering what you paid.

I basically consider any draft where a team acquires 3 solid best 22 players a success and you have done that in Reid, Wellingham and Brown if fit. Dick may never be right and his position in the team is probably covered by krakeour atm.

Macaffer and goldsack are borderline 22 players.

Marty clarke who? He's done what exactly?

Everyone talks about collingwoods great depth but they really dont have any.
Collingwood have 27 players on their entire list of 48 who have actually played a game for them. Lets break down some of those players. These numbers also include.
Dick: 2 games in 2010 and very injury prone
Mccarthy: 2 games in 2010 and 10 for career so far
Wood: 4 games last year and has done absolutely zero in his career so far to show himself as anything other than a depth quality ruckman.
Brown:Out for the entire season

Furthermore there are other borderline players within their list as well who according to the numbers shown have to be within their best 22 atm.
Toovey: A contributer but will always at best be borderline 22 and won't win you games.
Goldsack: Same as above.
Leigh Brown: At best a poor mans Quinten Lynch.
Blair: Off the rookie list and has played 12 games for you and sure while 1 of those games might have produced a premiership none of the games really suggest superstar player.

So take away those 4 players and you have 23 players on the current collingwood list who have at best shown they are or could be quality players for them so far as well as 2 experienced recruits over the off season.
1. Tarrant: Close to the end of his career. Was so close in fact he was going to retire if he couldnt get to collingwood in the offseason.
2. Krakeour: 3 years out of senior afl, was an average afl player when last on a list and has served an 18 month prison term.

On top of all these things Johnson, Davis and Jolly are 30 this year and Tarrant 31. As it stands even 1-2 major injuries and collingwood could slide a long way in a similar fashion to 91. There are some juicy odds out there on collingwood missing the top 4. I'll also point out yes my club finished 16th last year and yes we seem to have huge issues with disposal and decision making. This post isn't a rag about collingwood or a comparison about clubs just about where i see your list for one and for you and your other collingwood supporters not to get too cocky yet. Remember the end of 06 we even had fremantle supporters talking about a west coast dynasty and look how that panned out. Even geelong in an amazing 4 year period still only managed to pull 2 premierships out of it. You have one from 1 good year.

Really??

I agree that our depth is not as good as it was last year. I suppose now that teams are fielding 21 players instead of 22 it will help us a little bit. (I don't expect the sub to be used until very late in games)

But this rant you have gone on is full of your opinion based on what you hope to be true.

Ben Reid, a good player? Come on, he looks like being a star.

Chris Dawes average? He pretty much played his first full season of senior football last year. Granted he may never be a star, but he will be a good solid AFL KP footballer.

Brent MaCaffer is extremely young and inexperienced as well and also had his first year of senior footy last year. You might think he will be nothing more than a bit player, but the simple truth is he hasn't been asked to do anything more than that yet, and he has been fantastic for us.

Alan Toovey is not needed to win football matches for us, he is a defensive/tackling machine and he is very good at it. The less he has the ball in his hands he better for us!! But he is nowhere near the fringe of this team. He is as far away from being dropped as anyone in the side.

Leigh Brown will never be a class footballer, but he is a flexible, solid trier. He will never be anything more than a B grader, but thats fine because no team in the history of the game has ever had 22 A graders. He know his role and he plays it well. We are not asking him to reach the heights of one Quintin Lynch, we simply accept that he will be an effort player.

Tyson Goldsack has numerous queries on him coming into the season, but he is a felxible, quick player with a penetrating kick and good athleticism. You may be right, he may never be a top line player, but there is definitely something to work with there and if he has long stints playing half back with O'Brien, Reid, Maxwell and Shaw, he will get every chance to improve.

Jarryd Blair had one game against Essendon last year when he was played in the guts and that certainly suggested he could be a star player.

As for Tarrant, I would prefer Nathan Brown fit, but now that he isn't Tarrant is a solid replacement. Andrew Krakouer looks like bringing a touch of class with him, and even if he is the 21st man selected in our team this year, that still improves our team from last year.

Cam Wood has done nothing more than show he is a depth quality ruckman, and that is exactly what he is. Depth if Jolly gets hurt.

Any team that loses 3 or 4 of their best 22 is in a lot of trouble for the season, and so will we be. It puts less pressure on the guys in the side when injuries are around because they know they will be further away from being dropped. You think 1 or 2 major injuries will knock us down out of the top 4. Well, Brown is out for the season, that's 1. What if Maxwell doesn't front up for the first half of the season, you think we wont make top 4 then??

The difference between your West Coast side, and the Geelong sides, is Collingwood has a great group of key players aged between 20-25. They are already excellent footballers and judging on the traditional development of footballers, one would expect these guys to only get better. (Shaw, O'Brien, Pendles, Thomas, Cloke, Dawes, Reid, Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham)

Throw away your money betting against Collingwood if you want, but don't delude yourself into thinking its based on sound judgment, your just hoping.

 

[gaz15]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Rather forget the 05 draft to be honest (dowler, Muston, Ellis at no 3). However If i had to do it again my top 5 would be.

Pendles- is now one of the better mids going round.
Murphy- Only just over daisy, still a way to go to catch pendles.
Thomas- IMO will over take murphy this year.
Swallow
M Clark

 

[budgy14]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Pendles is miles ahead of murphy but murphy is just ahead of thomas but as gaz said thomas will be ahead by seasons end.swallow is a very good player deserves to be top 5 out of that draft.

i dont kno who said it but he hit the nail on the head, if carlton had of chosen pendles you would be defending the same situation if we were saying murphy was better. the facts and stats are there to back it up. typical carlton supporters..
i smell whats cooking......thats a premiership to the pies..... pendles to win brownlow..... and ratten jobless....



peace out

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I think some of the problems with your line of reasoning is that if it were switched the other way around, and we had Murphy and you had taken Pendles number 1 you would be busting a nut trying to convince all and sundry that Pendles is clearly a better player than Murphy.

So the problem with my reasoning is some imaginary construct you've created

If Pendles and Murphy had the exact same formlines as presently to date, I admit I'd rate Pendles higher without much thought; but in the same breath, if someone laid out the same reasons I have for not splitting them quite yet in a draft re-do; I wouldn't argue, as it's a fairly well reasoned stand point.

For what it's worth, I think Murphy will be a superstar, but Pendles is already one, so you don't say they are still neck and neck, you say Pendlebury is better for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Murphy caught and passed him by the end of their careers.

But this isn't a "whose the better player atm" thread; this is a draft re-do, so I don't agree with your phrasing; particularly the bolded part, which really isn't a fair representation of my comments.

Up until Murphy's injury, I consider him to have had the better career thus far - for which I've presented plenty of objective support - and this is the very reason I'm waiting for an uninjured Murhpy's season to be the decider in terms of a full draft re-do.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Dale Thomas caught and passed both of them by the end of their careers.

The difference with this and what I'm saying, is that there is a clear delineation point as at Murphy's injury; and a clear objective of being able to use an injury free year to see if can further deliver on his promise of 2009, as those who really watch him expected last year; it's not some open-ended vaguery.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

So the problem with my reasoning is some imaginary construct you've created

If Pendles and Murphy had the exact same formlines as presently to date, I admit I'd rate Pendles higher without much thought; but in the same breath, if someone laid out the same reasons I have for not splitting them quite yet in a draft re-do; I wouldn't argue, as it's a fairly well reasoned stand point.



But this isn't a "whose the better player atm" thread; this is a draft re-do, so I don't agree with your phrasing; particularly the bolded part, which really isn't a fair representation of my comments.

Up until Murphy's injury, I consider him to have had the better career thus far - for which I've presented plenty of objective support - and this is the very reason I'm waiting for an uninjured Murhpy's season to be the decider in terms of a full draft re-do.



The difference with this and what I'm saying, is that there is a clear delineation point as at Murphy's injury; and a clear objective of being able to use an injury free year to see if can further deliver on his promise of 2009, as those who really watch him expected last year; it's not some open-ended vaguery.

Yep I understand that Carlton would not, and you as a supporter would not change the way you drafted still believing that Murphy will become the better player or at least as good a player. But as people have already told you right now if you were drafting as a non affiliated neutral Pendlebury is the clearly the number one choice as right now he is a better player and certainly doesn't look like going backwards, so in drafting Murphy you are drafting for hope for the future, not any substantial facts. Just because you had them neck and neck before the season, and Pendles kicked on and Murphy didnt, does not mean you can use this injury excuse as the sole reason that they are no longer neck and neck. In fact didn't Murphy miss only one match for the entire season? Now I understand he may have had an interrupted preseason, but your opinion that he was going to be as good as if not better than Pendlebury injury free is simply "subjective" not objective. Also, remember that Pendlebury was coming back from a broken leg, if he had a down year could I have used that as an excuse??

Although I don't think so because I rate Murphy, he could still never reach the level that Pendlebury did last year and that is why the neutrals here, at this point in time, taking into consideration potential and current playing ability have Pendlebury the clear number one choice.

It doesn't really matter anyway, they are both quality. We're happy, you're happy.

Also on your last point, Daisy Thomas played almost the entire second half of the 2009 season with an injury, that if I remember correctly was a small fracture in his foot. Now can I say Daisy will be the best??

 

[The Bomb]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Out of this draft I would take

- Pendlebury by alot, All Class
- Ryder is the hardest type of player to find in the AFL. Huge Potential.
- Murphy Very Good Midfielder
- Swallow or Thomas would not really mind which one I got.

Pendles is in my mind is a long way ahead. Ryder with his body shape is only just starting to show some of the brilliance he is capable of, perfect type of player with the sub rule.
Murphy a very good midfielder, but the AFL is full of them.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

so in drafting Murphy you are drafting for hope for the future, not any substantial facts.

The substantial facts for me are that Murphy was better than Pendles at AFL level every year they played until he got injured. If we're talking about drafting players, then projections of the future based the past is the name of the game; and I can't go past Murphy draft-wise until I see what he produces in an uninjured year. I've not claimed Murphy to be better; I've not claimed he would have produced a better season; just that given their careers thus far, I'm not prepared to split them in a draft re-do until I see what Murphy will produce uninjured.

In fact didn't Murphy miss only one match for the entire season? Now I understand he may have had an interrupted preseason, but your opinion that he was going to be as good as if not better than Pendlebury injury free is simply "subjective" not objective.

Strange concept this one. Murphy didn't have an interrupted preseason, he just didn't have one; additionally he couldn't even train mid-week right through the season until the back end. Clearly hampered by injury all year. I get that plenty seem not to be aware how significantly his season was affected, but that doesn't mean I should cue behind them all in agreement.

In regards to the bolded; firstly I've not claimed my opinion to be objective, I've claimed to have supported parts of it objectively, as opposed to some counter arguments who've gone about making statements with no support at all. Furthermore, Murphy being better happened every other year, so suggesting it may have happened again last year without injury, while not being fact, isn't stretching the facts either.

Also, remember that Pendlebury was coming back from a broken leg, if he had a down year could I have used that as an excuse??

Are you serious with this? Really shows up the "fair and balanced" stand point of Collingwood fans. Claiming a broken leg borders on deceitful IMO when the reality was he cracked his fibula - a very minor injury - in September; it's a 6 week recovery and his preseason wasn't affected.

This stuff is just Magpie fans arguing for the sake it, rather than trying to understand a different view point. Which is why I genuinely appreciate Gone Critical's contribution.

Also on your last point, Daisy Thomas played almost the entire second half of the 2009 season with an injury, that if I remember correctly was a small fracture in his foot. Now can I say Daisy will be the best??

This is so far removed from anything I've said, I can't even muster a response.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

The substantial facts for me are that Murphy was better than Pendles at AFL level every year they played until he got injured. If we're talking about drafting players, then projections of the future based the past is the name of the game; and I can't go past Murphy draft-wise until I see what he produces in an uninjured year. I've not claimed Murphy to be better; I've not claimed he would have produced a better season; just that given their careers thus far, I'm not prepared to split them in a draft re-do until I see what Murphy will produce uninjured.



Strange concept this one. Murphy didn't have an interrupted preseason, he just didn't have one; additionally he couldn't even train mid-week right through the season until the back end. Clearly hampered by injury all year. I get that plenty seem not to be aware how significantly his season was affected, but that doesn't mean I should cue behind them all in agreement.

In regards to the bolded; firstly I've not claimed my opinion to be objective, I've claimed to have supported parts of it objectively, as opposed to some counter arguments who've gone about making statements with no support at all. Furthermore, Murphy being better happened every other year, so suggesting it may have happened again last year without injury, while not being fact, isn't stretching the facts either.



Are you serious with this? Really shows up the "fair and balanced" stand point of Collingwood fans. Claiming a broken leg borders on deceitful IMO when the reality was he cracked his fibula - a very minor injury - in September; it's a 6 week recovery and his preseason wasn't affected.

This stuff is just Magpie fans arguing for the sake it, rather than trying to understand a different view point. Which is why I genuinely appreciate Gone Critical's contribution.



This is so far removed from anything I've said, I can't even muster a response.

Dude, I was with you for a while, I could see what you were trying to say, but claiming that I am biased while saying some of the stuff you do is quite hypocritical, don't you think?

Also you yourself said there wasn't much between them up until 2010, which I definitely agree with, I would also agree that Murphy had probably produce slightly the better (though I still thought Pendles had more upside....thats prob my bias) to this point. Nobody is asking you to say you would prefer Pendles, all you have to do is realise that the majority of non affiliated supporters would take Pendles at this point and accept their basis for doing so.

You claim to know that Murphy had absolutely no preseason, that he couldn't train, but not all supporters know this, or believe that the injury was as serious as you make it out to be (why would Carlton risk a player of Murphy's potential and age playing him whilst so badly injured?).

It's not your opinion that I don't understand, it's your lack of common sense in acknowledging the overwhelming number of people who disagree with you. Of course you're going to wait until Murphy plays uninjured, he is a great prospect, but do you understand this point....there is no guarantee that Murphy will reach the level of football Pendlebury reached last year, and considering that level was so extremely high and seems to be increasing if this preseason is anything to go by, then the majority WOULD change their draft pick to Pendlebury.

Added to this, if injuries have so badly hampered the progress of Murphy, why would you select a player who may be injury prone, over a guy who is fit and healthy??

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Dude, I was with you for a while, I could see what you were trying to say, but claiming that I am biased while saying some of the stuff you do is quite hypocritical, don't you think?

I never called you biased. I did say you're arguing for the sake of it, which I genuinely think you are when you make claims like you did about Pendles "broken leg" affecting his 2010 season.

You claim to know that Murphy had absolutely no preseason, that he couldn't train, but not all supporters know this, or believe that the injury was as serious as you make it out to be (why would Carlton risk a player of Murphy's potential and age playing him whilst so badly injured?).

I am relating facts to you. I cannot answer your question, but what I have said re Murphy's injury is true and correct. I don't understand why Magpie posters have so much trouble accepting what is simply a fact; and compare any half-injury they can think of to Murphy's, just to have a counter-point.

It's not your opinion that I don't understand, it's your lack of common sense in acknowledging the overwhelming number of people who disagree with you.

Mate, I've made a living from taking opposing positions to the majority on some matters and am happy to back my logic in this regard. I feel no need to agree with the masses just because they're the masses.

I have though, acknowledged others viewpoints, such as Pendles being the better player right now and having achieved a higher spike of performance ... so on and so forth. To say I've not acknowledged the counter view is just wrong; I've not conceded to it, but I have clearly acknowledged it on numerous occasions.

but do you understand this point....there is no guarantee that Murphy will reach the level of football Pendlebury reached last year

Of course. I've already acknowledged this directly as well, so I'm not sure why you're asking me to do so again. If he was guaranteed I'd simply put him ahead of Pendles in a draft re-do right now. If he was guaranteed not to, I'd put him behind Pendles right now. Similarly, there is no guarantee Pendles will replicate his 2010 form, despite the probability being higher.

The thing is, I had Murphy ahead post-2009 and while Pendles stepped ahead in 2010, it is not a season in which I can derive a true opinion of Murphy. I've acknowledged it's up to Murphy to match Pendles and pass him, so I don't know what else I can possible say to satiate you other than yield to your opinion, which I'm just not going to do, so get over it.

TBH if Murphy has the better year than Pendles in 2011, I'll probably still put them neck and neck going into 2012 in regards to a total draft re-do. If Pendles has the better season again I'll put him ahead. Single seasons just don't cut it for me.

Added to this, if injuries have so badly hampered the progress of Murphy, why would you select a player who may be injury prone, over a guy who is fit and healthy??

Injury prone? Honestly, I see that for the sake of arguing, you come up with some downright silly comments. Murphy has now recovered from his surgery/injury and had a full preseason.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

I never called you biased. I did say you're arguing for the sake of it, which I genuinely think you are when you make claims like you did about Pendles "broken leg" affecting his 2010 season.



I am relating facts to you. I cannot answer your question, but what I have said re Murphy's injury is true and correct. I don't understand why Magpie posters have so much trouble accepting what is simply a fact; and compare any half-injury they can think of to Murphy's, just to have a counter-point.



Mate, I've made a living from taking opposing positions to the majority on some matters and am happy to back my logic in this regard. I feel no need to agree with the masses just because they're the masses.

I have though, acknowledged others viewpoints, such as Pendles being the better player right now and having achieved a higher spike of performance ... so on and so forth. To say I've not acknowledged the counter view is just wrong; I've not conceded to it, but I have clearly acknowledged it on numerous occasions.



Of course. I've already acknowledged this directly as well, so I'm not sure why you're asking me to do so again. If he was guaranteed I'd simply put him ahead of Pendles in a draft re-do right now. If he was guaranteed not to, I'd put him behind Pendles right now. Similarly, there is no guarantee Pendles will replicate his 2010 form, despite the probability being higher.

The thing is, I had Murphy ahead post-2009 and while Pendles stepped ahead in 2010, it is not a season in which I can derive a true opinion of Murphy. I've acknowledged it's up to Murphy to match Pendles and pass him, so I don't know what else I can possible say to satiate you other than yield to your opinion, which I'm just not going to do, so get over it.

TBH if Murphy has the better year than Pendles in 2011, I'll probably still put them neck and neck going into 2012 in regards to a total draft re-do. If Pendles has the better season again I'll put him ahead. Single seasons just don't cut it for me.



Injury prone? Honestly, I see that for the sake of arguing, you come up with some downright silly comments. Murphy has now recovered from his surgery/injury and had a full preseason.

Read the bolded part again and then ask yourself if I should take you seriously. What do you define as a half injury? Something that perhaps stops you from training but still allows you to play a game? And yet Murphy's injury is just so much worse. He missed one game for the season, and I can remember him being brilliant against Brisbane in round 2 of the season, so how is this injury so much worse than anybody else's? Marc Murphy's 2010 being a write off and no opinions can be formed on him during this season because of injury is certainly not a fact, this is an opinion.

Do you know what hypocritical means?? Arguing for the sake of arguing, huh?

I probably haven't read all of your posts in this thread so it is true that I may be misjudging your comments. This is ridiculous anyway because I really do rate Murphy!!

As for the injury thing, he missed half of his first season and then you are claiming his 2010 shouldn't be considered because he was injured. This means of his 5 seasons 1 and a half have been ruined by injury. I definitely don't believe this, but what you call wanting to argue, I call playing devils advocate. I wasn't arguing Pendles broken leg effected his season, nor am I making excuses about Dale Thomas' carrying an injury during 2009, that is the difference between what we are saying. I was simply using Thomas and Pendlebury as examples of situations where an argument can be made similar (not the same) as your Marc Murphy 2010 argument.

 

[Monkey King]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Read the bolded part again and then ask yourself if I should take you seriously. What do you define as a half injury? Something that perhaps stops you from training but still allows you to play a game? And yet Murphy's injury is just so much worse.

A half-injury would be Pendles "broken leg" - you're not the first to have brought this up btw - and claims it is comparable in impact to Murphy's surgery/injury despite it being resolved before the preseason even began.

He missed one game for the season, and I can remember him being brilliant against Brisbane in round 2 of the season, so how is this injury so much worse than anybody else's? Marc Murphy's 2010 being a write off and no opinions can be formed on him during this season because of injury is certainly not a fact, this is an opinion.

This is getting very boring having to re-explain simple shit. I never claimed my opinion as fact. I claimed - in response to your questioning it - the injury and surgery as fact; and that he had no preseason and couldn't train mid-week during the season as fact; and that his performance was clearly hampered as fact. From these facts I derive my opinion. Not sure how you've managed to mix these two concepts up.

I probably haven't read all of your posts in this thread so it is true that I may be misjudging your comments.

Obviously you haven't dude! You've accused me of this and that, but it's mostly bullshit if you had read it through. I've acknowledged basically everything I possibly could except just saying "I put Pendles at 1 in a draft re-do".

As for the injury thing, he missed half of his first season and then you are claiming his 2010 shouldn't be considered because he was injured. This means of his 5 seasons 1 and a half have been ruined by injury.

I'm not claiming anything shouldn't be considered. I'm not here advocating that everyone follow my train of thought and that others are wrong and I'm right. ****ing amazing you infer such actually when this has actually been the response of Magpie posters.

 

[jabbers]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

A half-injury would be Pendles "broken leg" - you're not the first to have brought this up btw - and claims it is comparable in impact to Murphy's surgery/injury despite it being resolved before the preseason even began.



This is getting very boring having to re-explain simple shit. I never claimed my opinion as fact. I claimed - in response to your questioning it - the injury and surgery as fact; and that he had no preseason and couldn't train mid-week during the season as fact; and that his performance was clearly hampered as fact. From these facts I derive my opinion. Not sure how you've managed to mix these two concepts up.



Obviously you haven't dude! You've accused me of this and that, but it's mostly bullshit if you had read it through. I've acknowledged basically everything I possibly could except just saying "I put Pendles at 1 in a draft re-do".



I'm not claiming anything shouldn't be considered. I'm not here advocating that everyone follow my train of thought and that others are wrong and I'm right. ****ing amazing you infer such actually when this has actually been the response of Magpie posters.

MK a lot of posters have no problem with you having your opinion. Analysis of the two players stats since starting having them very similar. However, you arrogantly dismissed valid opinions, no matter how subjective as baseless and then presented your own subjective opinions as fact.
My comment about Pendlebury's vision and decision making in traffic being superior would be agreed by many posters. I believe he brings others into the game more which can be reflected in his much higher handball to kick ratio.

 

[Pykie]

Re: 2005 Afl draft Re-Done

Out of this draft I would take

- Pendlebury by alot, All Class
- Ryder is the hardest type of player to find in the AFL. Huge Potential.
- Murphy Very Good Midfielder
- Swallow or Thomas would not really mind which one I got.

Pendles is in my mind is a long way ahead. Ryder with his body shape is only just starting to show some of the brilliance he is capable of, perfect type of player with the sub rule.
Murphy a very good midfielder, but the AFL is full of them.

Remind me what Ryder has done again?


Seems to be fairly overrated, potential is one thing, but you're placing him against guys that have been in the AA selection squads, at U/22 yrs of age, with a few being B&F winners already; thats a fair achievement.


Ryder goes at a goal a game for a ruckman, which is excellent, but 12d/19h is nothing to write home about for a guy of his athletiscm, especially as he was the sole ruckman for most of last season, those stats are probably even inflated.

As a comparison, Leunburger and Goldstein average similar numbers, despite having their TOG% slashed as second ruckman.


He is certainly good to watch, but I think he is overrated because of it, give me substance over style every time.

I wouldn't have him anywhere near Swallow, Thomas or Murphy; they are the next generation of AA midfielders, with Pendlebury being there already.