List Mgmt. 2013 Trade / Draft / Free Agency

[SaintsSeptember]

We don't have one. We would need to draft one this year (probably with our 3rd pick)...and then wait for 3 years for him to develop? He ain't going to be a dead set, ready-to-go gun at pick 50.

How could you forget about Jay, oh I see he must be standing side on to you.
Its not just a matter of waiting 3 years ( often 4 ), but it can be a 3 year wait just to realise that he isn't going to work out. So in fact you need to draft 2 or 3 tall backs and hope one works out.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

They haven't gotten rid of priority picks completely; the Demons might just be terrible enough to be given one.

Just thinking back to how we got our 2009-11 team; it won't be possible to build a team that same way.
2 priority picks from 2000-02
2 #1 overalls and 2 #2 overalls and a #5 overall all in the same 3yr period.
Some success in later rounds, Montagna, Fisher, Gwilt.
Trades that brought in useful guys not just duds.
Contributors like Lenny and Blake from previous drafts.

What the Saints could build in 3 drafts and supplement over another 1 or 2 and some trades, would now take 5 or more drafts. That's pretty disheartening.

we could try and follow the Geelong/Collingwood idea of developing players? Lyon didn't even try, and now Watters looks like he's missing a trick or 2 as well...Dunell, Ledger, Curren, Lee, Simpkin etc

 

[_Maximus_12]

We don't have one. We would need to draft one this year (probably with our 3rd pick)...and then wait for 3 years for him to develop? He ain't going to be a dead set, ready-to-go gun at pick 50.

Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying. We're likely going to draft a young KPD on-top of any free agent recruits to fill the voids in the future, otherwise we'll be facing the same dilema we are now, when Mitch Brown decides to retire (which given he is 26 next year, would give possibly another 6 seasons).
That time is plenty for us to draft and develop a young player.I think if we're being realistic, we couldn't expect our current batch of young players to be contending for a flag much earlier than 2017-18, after most of them have gotten 70+ games under their belt which would give us plenty of time to develop our own.
We've got to continue to develop our list in order to stay competitive. (which wasn't done under RL, hence where we are now)

Obviously, there are no guarentees that any player we bring into the club will turn-out to be the player we need him. But KPD don't grow on trees and as we saw last year, teams are reluctant to give them away, regardless of the offer.

 

[aussierulesrules]

He also changed his draft order about 500 times.

Exactly. As Knightmare admits himself, his mock draft is in the order that he thinks they will be taken and he changes it according to what he hears about which clubs are going to take who, which, by the end, is pretty much "common knowledge", at least in the top 10.

One prime example is Aiden Corr, who he had at 40-odd about a month before the draft, but once it started to get out that some of the clubs rated him really highly, he skyrocketed up KM's mock draft order to no.12 by draft day and he ended up going at 14.

(I dare say that if we had somehow been able to do a deal with GWS during trade week to get Corr and picks 24 and 43, instead of Lee, for pick 12, that BF and everyone would have likewise gone beserk saying that we "overpaid" for Corr big-time, because at the time we got Lee, Corr was expected to go in the 40's+ on BF, so most would have thought giving up pick 12 for him was insanity, but by the time the draft came around hardly anyone blinked an eyelid when Corr went at 14, because everyone had had time to digest the fact that some clubs rated him really highly by then. If we had somehow done a deal to get Corr and picks 24 and 43 for pick 12 on the day of the draft, everyone would have been talking about what a bargain we got, when if the exact same deal had been done 6 weeks earlier they would have been saying we were robbed!

It would have been the same with Lee had word gotten out that we at least rated him really highly, prior to that deal being done. He would have shot up KM's draft order like Corr and others did and like with Corr, it wouldn't have been seen as any really big deal that we gave up pick 12 for him and picks 24 and 43, but because it happened so suddenly, word didn't get out how highly he was rated and so most think we overpaid big-time. It's worth noting that Lee moved up in Knightmare's "power rankings" quite a bit after that trade was done and that by about the 9th of November he had Lee ahead of all of Jacksch (who ended up going at 12), Mason Shaw, Membrey, O'Brien, Paparone and White in his "power rankings", as I mentioned on this board at the time, so basically he had him ranked as the best "KPF" after Daniher, at that time.)

On the flip side, he also had Mason Wood in the 40's or so about a month from the draft, but then there were a lot of media reports that we in particular were really into him with our first picks and that other clubs were as well (with late first round picks) and so he shot up to 15 in KM's final order, but it turns out that those media reports were off the money and he didn't get picked until the 40's, after we had overlooked him 3 times, for instance.

Another one is Sam Colquhoun, who he had as high as 11 a month or two out from the draft, because he got mail that a club was really into him, but he ended up not getting picked at all in the National Draft.

Then there was Andrew Boston, who he had at 25 a month out from the draft, until he was told by someone who also knows what they are talking about that he was way too high and had tested really poorly at the combine, which saw him slip all the way down to 80 in KM's mock draft by draft day and he also didn't get picked up at all in the draft.

Then there was Spencer White who he had at 50 and Marco Paparone who he had at 66, who both went between 20-25. White has shown heaps for us already in the VFL and Paparone has already played for Brisbane, after killing it on the track over preseason.

Knightmare does a terrific job and gives us a great guide and fantastic info, especially given that he likely has far less background and personal info on them than the clubs do, but it is still just a GUIDE and that is what everyone needs to remember, it is not some sort of sure-thing.

If he was that good that whatever he says is the final word and indisputable, despite presumably having so much less info than the clubs do, then he would surely be heading up the recruiting department at an AFL club. Probably the one with the most money, after outbidding all the other clubs for his services. I think he is good, possibly very good, but not that good.

 

[Defacto]

we could try and follow the Geelong/Collingwood idea of developing players? Lyon didn't even try, and now Watters looks like he's missing a trick or 2 as well...Dunell, Ledger, Curren, Lee, Simpkin etc

not sure i agree with this. lee would be playing except for injury.

ledger hasnt really done anything to demand selection up until recently where he apparently played 4 decent games. his last game wasnt that great.

simpkin this year has been injured or shite. gets recalled and was terrible.

curren is a rookie. he'll be ok. ferguson was probably upgraded ahead of him on a needs basis.

lee is being managed through injury. he will play again shortly and has played this year.

dunell has played well off HBF apparently, roberton is probably keeping him out of the side.

nice of you to ignore the following that watters has developed: wright, newnes, ross, webster, hickey, saad, roberton

you could probably add armo, steven, geary, siposs, milera to that list.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Listed at 90kgs, but looks a fair bit bigger than that. His 'little' brother at the Suns is listed at 102kgs, which looks closer to the mark.

He was VERY skinny, I think.

Here is a photo I posted of him from back in November when we were talking about him

I was pretty surprised to see how much stronger he looked when I first saw him playing in the NAB Cup for Collingwood, though. Looked like he had really filled out.

I'm still not sure he is the sort that is going to be really well suited to playing on the "gorillas" though. His speed and athleticism are his two biggest physical assets, so he is probably best suited to playing on those with a lot of speed and athleticism, as Rhys has been for us, rather than on those that are really huge units who like to wrestle, or push someone out of their way.

I think Collingwood would be very happy with what he has shown for them so far though. Don't think he'll get beaten too often by any "3rd talls".

 

[Barrels]

I'm still not sure he is the sort that is going to be really well suited to playing on the "gorillas" though. His speed and athleticism are his two biggest physical assets, so he is probably best suited to playing on those with a lot of speed and athleticism, as Rhys has been for us, rather than on those that are really huge units who like to wrestle, or push someone out of their way.

I don't know about the bolded part - the original OP, a Collingwood man, reckons he's "as strong as an ox", and as you said, he's dramatically filled out in the past six months. Add to that the fact that his little brother is over the ton, and is say the genetics are there to be a wrestler FB. You have to take into account the effect of three months of enforced bed rest too, I was in the same boat, and lost an enormous amount of weight (then got married, and put 110% back on).

As far as comparisons to Rhys go, I don't think they're directly comparable; Rhys - as we saw yesterday is much better forward - and as either a forward or a backman, is not a physical player. He's at his best when he can run and jump at the ball. Frost appears to have some great athletic attributes, but the indication is that he has much more natural physical presence and an affinity for scrapping that Rhys doesn't.

Anyone know the knocks on him (and his brother) that saw them both last to the Rookie Drafts?

 

[_Maximus_12]

I don't know about the bolded part - the original OP, a Collingwood man, reckons he's "as strong as an ox", and as you said, he's dramatically filled out in the past six months. Add to that the fact that his little brother is over the ton, and is say the genetics are there to be a wrestler FB. You have to take into account the effect of three months of enforced bed rest too, I was in the same boat, and lost an enormous amount of weight (then got married, and put 110% back on).

As far as comparisons to Rhys go, I don't think they're directly comparable; Rhys - as we saw yesterday is much better forward - and as either a forward or a backman, is not a physical player. He's at his best when he can run and jump at the ball. Frost appears to have some great athletic attributes, but the indication is that he has much more natural physical presence and an affinity for scrapping that Rhys doesn't.

Anyone know the knocks on him (and his brother) that saw them both last to the Rookie Drafts?

Foot Skills were the major knock from memory, both horribly inconsistent by Foot at U/18 level

 

[Sheeza69]

A further response to my search:


Worryingly has had significant hip surgery - spent three months in bed - and just did his PCL. Apparently a solid ball of rage though. Thoughts?

Injury prone players are simply not worth it, the only risky pick the club might look at using is on Garlett..
That'd be my preference, we've wasted nearly as many picks as the Dees in recent years..
With number of key position players out of contract, we have to prioritise 2 x KPD's & 2 x inside mid's as a matter of urgency..

With some mature players like George Hampson ready to go, i'd be dismayed with the club if they don't go on a major buying/trading campaign similiar to the year when we picked up the GTrain, Hamill, Capuano & others at the end of 2000..

Rance, Mitch Brown & Taylor Adams should be at the top of our shopping list, with a stack of other ready-made AFL players like, Griffiths (Rich), Haynes, Hanson closely looked out..!!

With over $1.5m available in our cap, we have to be aggressive & target the best, & be willing to offer front-loaded 3yr contracts to attract the BEST available..

Had a gutful of second rate former AFL club players like TDL..(no offence Trent), but they won't take our club forward..

 

[Sheeza69]

saints have to seriously look at george hamspon. 188cm MID. best way i can describe is a mix between lenny hayes and joe montagna. ive seen him play FF, HFF, WING, INSIDE MID, HBF every time he is extremely dangerous

best part is he can literally run all day on big grounds and run end to end footy

he would be an immediate upgrade on ledger who is a similar type of player

Who does George Hamspon play for in the WAFL..??
Any similiarity to Andrew Embley..???

 

[Defacto]

Who does George Hamspon play for in the WAFL..??
Any similiarity to Andrew Embley..???

subi

different embley. embers looks done though.

he's like a mix between lenny and montagna but 188cm

 

[Sheeza69]

subi

different embley. embers looks done though.

he's like a mix between lenny and montagna but 188cm

Thanks Defacto, will do my homework..
The days of the 178cm mid is fading, the 188cm mid is the flavour nowadays..!

 

[aussierulesrules]

I don't know about the bolded part - the original OP, a Collingwood man, reckons he's "as strong as an ox", and as you said, he's dramatically filled out in the past six months. Add to that the fact that his little brother is over the ton, and is say the genetics are there to be a wrestler FB. You have to take into account the effect of three months of enforced bed rest too, I was in the same boat, and lost an enormous amount of weight (then got married, and put 110% back on).

Yeah, may be the case.

As far as comparisons to Rhys go, I don't think they're directly comparable; Rhys - as we saw yesterday is much better forward

While he is probably better forward at the moment, that is not surprising, as he has probably played ten times more forward in his life than he has down back and is clearly still learning down back, but I didn't think he was any more influential yesterday than he was the week before, when he completely blanketed Liam Jones for a half (keeping him touchless) and then kept him to 2 marks for the game in total.

Or than he was when he did a great job on Jeremy Cameron (who is 5th in the Coleman at present) and Johnno Patton when we played GWS, or than he was when he kept Sam Reid markless and goalless for over a half until he was injured in our NAB Cup game against Sydney.

He also provided some good rebound and run in some or all of those games and did some really good pinpoint and long kicking to targets as well (including from kick-ins). He was also far far better once he was moved from the forward line to the backline against Richmond, clunking a couple of terrific high marks and doing some terrific spoils and also did a perfectly fine job for the most part against the very tall Hampson, when we played Carlton. Then there was his game down back in R1 against Gold Coast, when he had an equal career high 18 possessions and by far a career high in marks, with 14.

Clearly he is not suited to playing on the likes of Cloke, but most of us said as much when we first heard that he was training down back over the summer. His confidence (which had been seemingly and noticeably increasing every week up to that point) took a serious battering that week (as I suspect Saad's is at the moment, being kept in the team while being horribly out of form), but if we keep him to the jobs he is actually suited to back there, while he learns and continues to grow in confidence, then he ought to continue to improve and grow in confidence back there.

- and as either a forward or a backman, is not a physical player. He's at his best when he can run and jump at the ball. Frost appears to have some great athletic attributes, but the indication is that he has much more natural physical presence and an affinity for scrapping that Rhys doesn't.

That is true.

 

[Sheeza69]

A further response to my search:


Worryingly has had significant hip surgery - spent three months in bed - and just did his PCL. Apparently a solid ball of rage though. Thoughts?

Tom Williams of the Doggies has hurt his reconstructive shoulder once again..
Was drafted at pick 6, & has averaged only eleven games a season due to injuries..
Some players have a body that just isn't conducive to the rigours of AFL footy..
Let's hope our list management get it right with our early draft pick/s

 

[tbarker]

This piece on the afl site mentions Alex Rance being out of contract:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-21/where-your-clubs-free-agents-are-at

I think he'd be an excellent fit for the Saints.

Attracts controversy from whackos - will fit in beautifully!!!

 

[Barrels]

Another one; Michael Hartley, former NSW scholarship kid and current rookie at C**tingwood;

Michael HartleyDOB 7/6/93 Ht 196 Wt 94

This is Collingwood’s other scholarship player this year and if you offered me a choice between the two I would be taking Hartley. Honestly I probably rate him as the best FB prospect in this draft and I would have no trouble taking him in the top 20. The kid has the size, speed and defensive instincts to become a top shelf AFL full back.

Again I have not seen a huge amount of him apart from seeing him live against Vic Metro when he played on Patton. In that game he absolutely dominated Patton for three quarters completely taking him out of the game. Patton had two possessions up until three quarter time both being marks on the wing close to being in the back half. Hartley went step for step with the top rated Patton, was disciplined in how he played him and spoiled everything that got close. He left Patton a couple of times to mark the ball himself and showed great judgment of the ball in the air. He has excellent closing speed and a huge leap to go with his very nice height. Before taking up AFL a few years ago he was a nationally ranked high jumper. As a shut down full back he looks as good as you will get.

Hartley is very disciplined at the back and is not a big possession winner. He could very well follow in the footsteps of Presti in this regard. Still when he does get it he is a reasonable user of the ball. His skills are pretty good and I have not seen anything to make me question his option taking. As he becomes more confident there is nothing to suggest that he could not improve his run off and involvement in the offensive side of the game.

He has played mainly as a back but he has been a capable CHF when he has been asked to play there at the Champs and for his club. His workrate up forward is very good and he presents well with good quick leads. His hands are much better than you would expect from a backman. His kicking for goal could use a bit of work.

On size and versatility he reminds me a bit of Hurley of the Bombers although with more athleticism and less offensive game. Still I think he has enormous potential and should be ready to step in for Tarrant as soon as he retires.

That's Quigley's pre-draft assessment of the kid. Impressive reading.

Also, the opinion of one poster (for what it's worth):

Has showed plenty of potential when he can get on the park, and apparently destroyed Patton in a TAC cap game. Could be a really good pick up, his major issue is his injury history, particularly shoulder related. Would come cheap.

 

[Barrels]

The same poster was of the opinion that Lachlan Keeffe might be convinced to look elsewhere, being behind Brown, Reid and potentially Frost in the KPD position - although I note he re-signed at the end of last year for a further two years:

If the right offer came along I assume he would be. He is still behind Reid and Brown and CFC wouldn't miss him too much with Frost not too far behind him.
Saying that he would probably command a highish draft pick, young, tall, extremely agile for his hight, showed plenty down back with the potential to go forward and into the ruck. I'm never any good at putting a price on players but if Dawes netted us 20 then you would think Keefe would be in the same ballpark.

What would you be prepared to give up if we went hard for this kid? 23, 204cm ( ) and 94kgs - description below:

Keeffe moves more like a midfielder than the ruck prospect he was originally drafted as. Remarkable considering he stands at a height of 204cms. With the blonde hair, the graceful movement and the height it is hard not to draw comparisons to former Collingwood great Peter Moore.

And for perspective, standing next to the 180cm Steele Sidebottom:

I remember being pretty impressed by him at CHB.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

w

Injury prone players are simply not worth it, the only risky pick the club might look at using is on Garlett..
That'd be my preference, we've wasted nearly as many picks as the Dees in recent years..
With number of key position players out of contract, we have to prioritise 2 x KPD's & 2 x inside mid's as a matter of urgency..

With some mature players like George Hampson ready to go, i'd be dismayed with the club if they don't go on a major buying/trading campaign similiar to the year when we picked up the GTrain, Hamill, Capuano & others at the end of 2000..

Rance, Mitch Brown & Taylor Adams should be at the top of our shopping list, with a stack of other ready-made AFL players like, Griffiths (Rich), Haynes, Hanson closely looked out..!!

With over $1.5m available in our cap, we have to be aggressive & target the best, & be willing to offer front-loaded 3yr contracts to attract the BEST available..

Had a gutful of second rate former AFL club players like TDL..(no offence Trent), but they won't take our club forward..

You know what Sheeza, I agree with you. A good trade for Adams, poach Brown thru the PSD, trade for another tall KPD (Griffiths, Keefe, Frost etc), maybe a free agent mid. Take Boyd/Crouch/Dunstan. We really need to further fix the holes in the list with 23-27 year olds. It will give the 17-21 year olds a much more stable base to come thru on

 

[stkildathunda]

Mark Hutchins would be handy to still have on our list right about now! He's turned into very handy player!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

w
You know what Sheeza, I agree with you. A good trade for Adams, poach Brown thru the PSD, trade for another tall KPD (Griffiths, Keefe, Frost etc), maybe a free agent mid. Take Boyd/Crouch/Dunstan. We really need to further fix the holes in the list with 23-27 year olds. It will give the 17-21 year olds a much more stable base to come thru on

Do I get a nod for Ben Brown ( mooted to go second round in 2010 prior to injury ) on the Rookie list.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Mark Hutchins would be handy to still have on our list right about now! He's turned into very handy player!

Nah, spud, WAFL clearly a pissant comp blah blah blah

 

[Sheeza69]

w
You know what Sheeza, I agree with you. A good trade for Adams, poach Brown thru the PSD, trade for another tall KPD (Griffiths, Keefe, Frost etc), maybe a free agent mid. Take Boyd/Crouch/Dunstan. We really need to further fix the holes in the list with 23-27 year olds. It will give the 17-21 year olds a much more stable base to come thru on

Anybody observed Rance's game tonight, he'd be worth $1.5m over 3yrs..
And at 23, with more upside maybe $2.2m over 4yrs to clinch the deal..

 

[Strahany]

Another one; Michael Hartley, former NSW scholarship kid and current rookie at C**tingwood;



That's Quigley's pre-draft assessment of the kid. Impressive reading.

Also, the opinion of one poster (for what it's worth):

How do you go about getting a rookie from another club? Is it just a trade like normal?

 

[35Saints35]

I'd go for that . Cash is there spend it

 

[Barrels]

How do you go about getting a rookie from another club? Is it just a trade like normal?

Not sure actually... Maybe someone with better knowledge...?