Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Jimmae]

Many people say stats are overrated and I generally agree. But take into account a couple of things for 2017 season

• Ranked 9th for accuracy
• Ranked 17th for I50

Levi ranked 3rd for contested marks, 15th for marks I50. A fair effort, for less opportunities compared to his cohorts

Get the ball forward more often and we will be more competitive, pretty simple

How many marks does he get for his F50 targets? How many uncontested marks does he take inside 50, and how many do the team take?

He jams the place up because of his combination of his strengths (contested marking, leap) and weaknesses (agility, mobility, read of the zone, kicking technique).

In the NFL, you can have a guy at Levi's stats playing anything from the primary wide receiver role through to a situational tight end depending on their ability to process and react to the game around them. He would very much be a situational tight end.

In the AFL, he's at best a 2nd forward, but probably a 3rd forward who flexes to the ruck role as required. Given that's the case, I'd rather have Jack in the team than Levi.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Wrong theory.

My concern is that after Menzel's first year at the club everyone thought we had 'something here'. In the years following that, he hardly improved his output onfield or developed his game any further than when he first arrived.

Personally, I saw early signs with Menzel that had me concerned. I even voiced those around here, much to the chagrin of others. I haven't seen that with SOS. He may not be the best Silvagni kid going around, but I think he'll be a solid contributor for a while yet, and may even surprise a few people.

 

[Kernafides]

Wrong theory.

My concern is that after Menzel's first year at the club everyone thought we had 'something here'. In the years following that, he hardly improved his output onfield or developed his game any further than when he first arrived.

He wasn't a smart footballer though. Despite his lack of pace Jsos seems to know where to go to find space.

 

[Arr0w]

How many marks does he get for his F50 targets? How many uncontested marks does he take inside 50, and how many do the team take?

He jams the place up because of his combination of his strengths (contested marking, leap) and weaknesses (agility, mobility, read of the zone, kicking technique).

In the NFL, you can have a guy at Levi's stats playing anything from the primary wide receiver role through to a situational tight end depending on their ability to process and react to the game around them. He would very much be a situational tight end.

In the AFL, he's at best a 2nd forward, but probably a 3rd forward who flexes to the ruck role as required. Given that's the case, I'd rather have Jack in the team than Levi.

Have been saying this all along, only a 2nd string KPF/Ruck relief

As for Jack he is already in the side.

Yes Levi does have weaknesses of mobility and agility, but despite his ungainly kicking technique, last year his accuracy has to be deemed as elite when kicking for goal, the stats compared to other forwards, namely KPF, show that, it is indisputable

In terms of forward work, if Levi had better delivery, his marking would be unstoppable. I wouldn't change the game-plan, but the tactics should change slightly, with bringing in better users of the ball. Instruct Levi, to either stay deep for that get out option, or mix it up by leading at the ball carrier and instruct the players further up the ground to lower their eyes and hit a short target of 15-20 metres. If his opponent lags, wanting to cover a long kick, hit Levi up. If he is getting close attention, the space behind him will open up for our other forwards to lead into.

Levi's return would improve again this year, if that was the case

 

[Arr0w]

He wasn't a smart footballer though. Despite his lack of pace Jsos seems to know where to go to find space.

Biggest difference between Menzel and JSOS, work-rate

 

[AceAndy]

Yes Levi does have weaknesses of mobility and agility, but despite his ungainly kicking technique, last year his accuracy has to be deemed as elite when kicking for goal, the stats compared to other forwards, namely KPF, show that, it is indisputable

It certainly never occurred to me his accuracy was in the elite category.

I would be interested in how Levi compares with other KPFs.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Who do we put on a Cyril Rioli or Eddie Betts?

No defender is ever going to be quick & agile enough to 1v1 these guys at ground level. Sending a defender to them & saying 'stop Betts' isn't going to work.

Put a heap of work into Tom Lynch & intercept a lot of Adelaide's inside 50s and Betts will have a bad day though. See his last match

 

[Jimmae]

Have been saying this all along, only a 2nd string KPF/Ruck relief

As for Jack he is already in the side.

Yes Levi does have weaknesses of mobility and agility, but despite his ungainly kicking technique, last year his accuracy has to be deemed as elite when kicking for goal, the stats compared to other forwards, namely KPF, show that, it is indisputable

In terms of forward work, if Levi had better delivery, his marking would be unstoppable. I wouldn't change the game-plan, but the tactics should change slightly, with bringing in better users of the ball. Instruct Levi, to either stay deep for that get out option, or mix it up by leading at the ball carrier and instruct the players further up the ground to lower their eyes and hit a short target of 15-20 metres. If his opponent lags, wanting to cover a long kick, hit Levi up. If he is getting close attention, the space behind him will open up for our other forwards to lead into.

Levi's return would improve again this year, if that was the case

Still don't reckon he's smart enough in the way he plays that role to be given it regularly.

I think he clogs up the forward line without providing greater opportunities for his team mates, ie. he nullifies the extra attention by bringing the extra defender back to the critical part of a contest, he doesn't have the awareness to bring the ball to ground to the right areas, and he doesn't open up much space when the team needs him to.

I'd rather play McKay, who is ready to play.

 

[Azzurro]

No need to get all upset old chap, but best to quote sources when making absolute statements

Better get used to it this year. Year of reckoning, I fear he's not up to it

Lack of improvement last year. Lack of impact at any given time.

Quite happy to be proven wrong, but it's very much a year of reckoning for Jack

We are definitely talking opinions here. My post is about my opinion on the opinions held by others about a young, developing player on our young, developing list.

My opinion is simply that anyone making claims (some of these arguably “absolute”) about any bottom age 2nd year player’s ability and chances of “making it” at AFL level - whether these claims are made under the guise of opinion or not - is a polarising and inherently negative pursuit.

There will be changes to the list. Many players will not “make it”. But again, my opinion is that we should look with optimism towards our youth and their development, particularly during the off-season when a ball hasn’t yet been kicked in anger. And especially when they clearly have the approval (currently) of our coaching staff as a starting 22 player.

What does HARKER always say? Let the baker bake the bread?

My dad also says that there is no harm in expressing your opinion - it’s just that your opinion is clearly wrong.

 

[HARKER]

My dad also says that there is no harm in expressing your opinion - it’s just that your opinion is clearly wrong.

There is no harm in expressing ones opinion........but only if you've considered and now have reason to own that opinion.

Saying stuff just to be liked is not having an opinion or even worse, say nothing in fear of being disliked. How s**t is that?

 

[Metalcrusher]

Jack will be a mobile footy smart forward of centre gun. He will slot goals ... get to forward of centre contests, and generally beat his 1v1 man on the day. He has an elastic body to grow into ... it will come and he will be there.

 

[Blueballs38]

I have a talent for picking future certainties after their first few games .... knew Cripps was gonna be a beast before many on here .... not tooting my horn but JSOS is a damn good footballer and will be around a long long time.

It’s a forum so u can pot him but u better be ready to eat humble pie over the next 3-5 years!

Personally anyone who has anything bad to say about House Silvagni and is a blues supporter should g barrack for another team!

That family is CFC royalty for glories sake!

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I have a talent for picking future certainties after their first few games .... knew Cripps was gonna be a beast before many on here .... not tooting my horn but JSOS is a damn good footballer and will be around a long long time.

It’s a forum so u can pot him but u better be ready to eat humble pie over the next 3-5 years!

Personally anyone who has anything bad to say about House Silvagni and is a blues supporter should g barrack for another team!

That family is CFC royalty for glories sake!

You should have joined bf and told us all cripps would be a gun. Pretty sure most here thought he would be...

 

[Blueballs38]

You should have joined bf and told us all cripps would be a gun. Pretty sure most here thought he would be...

I’m no genius but a lot of the time u can see who will make it and who will not .... Silvagni just looks like he will.

You forget at the time Cripps was a reach. And no his first few games were not outstanding but he showed glimpses.

I saw one no look handball that reminded me of Deisel and that was it I knew he was a gun.

The Cripps train did not roll out of the station straight away.

And no most didn’t think so, most didn’t know, all were hopeful as with all new recruits.

Anyway if I was sooooooo good I’d be CFCs head recruiter and as I am not .... well .... let’s just say like the rest of you I’m a damn good armchair recruiter.

But seriously I would have /even way better than Rogers!

A chimp with a hankering for alphabet soup could have picked better recruits out of the soup than Rogers and Hughes!

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Personally anyone who has anything bad to say about House Silvagni and is a blues supporter should g barrack for another team!

Yes let’s all follow blindly and not be allowed to question anything they do and alienate any supporters who have a differing opinion. Sounds like a great culture to be a part of. Would far to prefer we encouraged the exact opposite. Besides. Hardly anyone has potted jack. At the most it is just concern over a few of his observable traits.

 

[Dadda Dave]

Biggest difference between Menzel and JSOS, work-rate

Jsos sure does work his arse off! Our best forward at finding space and hopefully in better nick with a full pre season so he is not so knackerd taking set shots .

 

[DangerousD]

People are entitled to make comment & pass judgement just like you are.

As for young Silvagni, I have concerns that he may be Troy Menzel Mark II, we will know if that is true later in the year.

How so LL? Menzel to me was super talented but soft and lacked work ethic. Whats your concern with JSOS? I have concerns with him in regards to his speed (not his foot but his decision making speed) and his tackling pressure.

I am also aware he is 2 seasons in at a club who has struggled and is a tall type who generally take more time to develop.

 

[Arr0w]

Still don't reckon he's smart enough in the way he plays that role to be given it regularly.

I think he clogs up the forward line without providing greater opportunities for his team mates, ie. he nullifies the extra attention by bringing the extra defender back to the critical part of a contest, he doesn't have the awareness to bring the ball to ground to the right areas, and he doesn't open up much space when the team needs him to.

I'd rather play McKay, who is ready to play.

McKay will be a beauty.

Big difference between ready and capable. If the kids are at the same level or better than the more senoir players, absolutely play them, but don't gift them games

 

[Arr0w]

It certainly never occurred to me his accuracy was in the elite category.

I would be interested in how Levi compares with other KPFs.

Of players that kicked 30 goals or more (39 players) Levi ranked 12th for accuracy (65.40% conversion), and 5th overall for KPF's behind Brown, Jenkins, Hawkins and Patton

 

[Ken Navies]

I reckon the idea of Jsos is worse than the reality

He isn't fast, tall enough, not a booming kick or dead eye set shot (he was very accurate in the twos though so this should improve), however he is just a good footballer, might not have an easy to define role, but he is just... good.

Is he not footy enough?
Bueller I’m looking at you...

 

[AceAndy]

Of players that kicked 30 goals or more (39 players) Levi ranked 12th for accuracy (65.40% conversion), and 5th overall for KPF's behind Brown, Jenkins, Hawkins and Patton

Thanks for the update Arr0w Very surprised at Levi's ranking , certainly a lot higher than i would have thought.

 

[Dadda Dave]

Of players that kicked 30 goals or more (39 players) Levi ranked 12th for accuracy (65.40% conversion), and 5th overall for KPF's behind Brown, Jenkins, Hawkins and Patton

Imo Levi stands out more due to lack of opportunity with our low entry and not very good delivery inside 50 where other teams have a few more multiple goal kickers and a lot more shots at goal .

I love the big fella .

 

[Weiterbot23]

If anything the tone on here is too positive

I've got no problem with respected posters making early calls good or bad re players on here.

Not interested in an echo chamber of only pro Carlton thoughts, (although I am extremely bullish on where we are currently heading.)


The amount of defense that Hughes and Russell got on here was ridiculous, anyone who questioned either ability as a recruiter or player was burnt at the stake, but those posters were right.


Sometimes the club does need to hear it, the thing I can't get over was Lucas over Talia, all the smart draft watches on here we're screaming for Talia...if forum dwellers get it right, how could the club have got it so wrong!?!? But for the next 24 months we had to sit through ridiculous praise and admiration of Lucas from hysterical positive fans.


That said since SOS came back we are nailing picks in the 60s and are gunna dominate for 10 years and we should get 42 AAs next year

 

[SurreyBlue]

Yes let’s all follow blindly and not be allowed to question anything they do and alienate any supporters who have a differing opinion. Sounds like a great culture to be a part of. Would far to prefer we encouraged the exact opposite. Besides. Hardly anyone has potted jack. At the most it is just concern over a few of his observable traits.

Blind faith.....nah, the kid is a footballer. Problem is most don’t like the fact he’s not an athlete.
The kid is a very good footballer and we should be impressed with what he has done in only his 2nd year as a deep key forward in most games.

 

[Dadda Dave]

If anything the tone on here is too positive

I've got no problem with respected posters making early calls good or bad re players on here.

Not interested in an echo chamber of only pro Carlton thoughts, (although I am extremely bullish on where we are currently heading.)


The amount of defense that Hughes and Russell got on here was ridiculous, anyone who questioned either ability as a recruiter or player was burnt at the stake, but those posters were right.


Sometimes the club does need to hear it, the thing I can't get over was Lucas over Talia, all the smart draft watches on here we're screaming for Talia...if forum dwellers get it right, how could the club have got it so wrong!?!? But for the next 24 months we had to sit through ridiculous praise and admiration of Lucas from hysterical positive fans.


That said since SOS came back we are nailing picks in the 60s and are gunna dominate for 10 years and we should get 42 AAs next year

Only 42 ? That means the experts will call the A A team Carlton then which suits me fine but Luke DH Darcy will have other ideas .