2017 Trade and FA thread

[winged1]

There was something strange going on there. His reserves form was solid. Turned out he had one foot in the door at Essendon at the end of the season. Whether or not we didn't rate him or knew he was on the way out it's hard to tell.

There was a huge question on his decision making that is why he was in the 2s for so long, we would of been happy to delist or trade him if we could of got anything at that point. But his last 6 weeks for us were good and then he went to the scum and he has put together a good run over a couple of years, either way the club showed they were happy to trade him.

But there is a kid we would of delisted, who had talent and turned it around and is a solid player now. Calling for kids to be delisted after a couple of NEAFL games, when they are in all likelihood playing in a position they have little experience in, is lunacy.

 

[jackess]

There was a huge question on his decision making that is why he was in the 2s for so long, we would of been happy to delist or trade him if we could of got anything at that point. But his last 6 weeks for us were good and then he went to the scum and he has put together a good run over a couple of years, either way the club showed they were happy to trade him.

But there is a kid we would of delisted, who had talent and turned it around and is a solid player now. Calling for kids to be delisted after a couple of NEAFL games, when they are in all likelihood playing in a position they have little experience in, is lunacy.

I must have missed someone calling for any first year player to be delisted. I saw briztoon saying Lyons' future is questionable beyond his current contract though.

 

[briztoon]

I must have missed someone calling for any first year player to be delisted. I saw briztoon saying Lyons' future is questionable beyond his current contract though.

I believe this was the basis of this discussion. Of course it relies on peoples reading and comprehension skills. And this being the Brisbane board, people do jump at shadows (which I to am guilty of).

 

[winged1]

I must have missed someone calling for any first year player to be delisted. I saw briztoon saying Lyons' future is questionable beyond his current contract though.

I wasnt picking on anybody in particular, this thread is 20 something pages long and I was responding to "the vibe" of the last 4 or 5 pages.

My point still stands though.

 

[jackess]

I wasnt picking on anybody in particular, this thread is 20 something pages long and I was responding to "the vibe" of the last 4 or 5 pages.

My point still stands though.

There isn't a need though that everybody can only make predictions if they're 100% accurate. Surely having people with different point of views contribute to individuals forming opinions of their own.

 

[winged1]

There isn't a need though that everybody can only make predictions if they're 100% accurate. Surely having people with different point of views contribute to individuals forming opinions of their own.

Hey people can talk all the shit they want, that's fine.

But posters saying "player x" has no future when they still have a lot of time on their contract and often the players they are talking about have just been drafted, I think is stupid. As pointed out by the Crisp analogy.

 

[jackess]

Hey people can talk all the shit they want, that's fine.

But posters saying "player x" has no future when they still have a lot of time on their contract and often the players they are talking about have just been drafted, I think is stupid. As pointed out by the Crisp analogy.

Once again; who's saying 'they have no future'?

So we can't say Clayton won't get another contract because there is a chance he might be steak knives in a deal with GWS and win 3 premierships?

 

[spotthedog1]

Arguing semantics guys.

Lyons isn't guaranteed another contract, and if he doesn't make the senior side by end of next year, you'd think he'd be gone.

But at the same time, putting him on any list categorising him as "questionable future" or "potential delisting" when he was drafted about 6 months ago is well and truly premature.

 

[briztoon]

Hey people can talk all the shit they want, that's fine.

But posters saying "player x" has no future when they still have a lot of time on their contract and often the players they are talking about have just been drafted, I think is stupid. As pointed out by the Crisp analogy.

Thing is, no one said that.

I was responding to some ones post and looking at our list, players current contracts and when they expire, rookies who would need to be upgraded at the end of this year and next, number of possible draft picks we take to the draft this year (i guessed 4). Basically looking at our list and seeing who are the likely candidates to be delisted at the end of their current contract based on how many list spots we will need for rookie upgrades and draft picks, and had a second list of those who's future might be questionable at the end of their current contract. I had Lyons on that list.

Some one highlighted Lyons name and ran with the whole, "why would you delist a first year player", taking the one name out of context from the whole post.

And then others commented further. And this only occurred one page back.

jackess has simply pointed out no one actually said we should delist "insert name of young player here".

The main thing everyone has missed, which I mentioned in a prior post, by AFL rules we MUST delist 3 players every year. On top of that, the clubs recruiting managers have said that they see the best way for the club to build the list is through the draft, so it's safe to assume we'll be drafting more than 3 players per draft over the next couple of seasons. Then we have players on the rookie list that will need promoting to the senior list or be de-listed.

Like it or not, some players careers are at risk.


My one mistake is not explaining everything in depth in every one of my posts, but rather having successive posts build on and add to the previous posts.

 

[Dalions]

Isnt Corey Lyons a senior listed player anyway.
So therefore contracted for 2 yrs at a minimum. He will be going nowhere this year.

 

[POBT]

Delisting players after only two years seems to be the exception rather than the rule at our club. However, guys taken late in the draft do tend to get less time to prove themselves.

 

[briztoon]

Isnt Corey Lyons a senior listed player anyway.
So therefore contracted for 2 yrs at a minimum. He will be going nowhere this year.

Correct. And again, he was not on my "has no future at the club list". For reference, Jack Frost was, and he's contracted until 2019.

Lyons was on my "Has to prove he belongs to get another contract" list.

As I have said previously, we can only de-list out of contract players (as far as I am aware), which means even though we might like to de-list Jack Frost at the end of next season, we can't because he will be contracted for one more year, so unfortunately that puts Lyons squarely in the firing line simply because he will be out of contract.

But we will have a couple of Rookie list spots available at the end of next year, so if we want to keep Lyons, we can always pick him up in the rookie draft. If the rookie list still exists by then.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

I think there are far more questionable recruiting decisions that have been made to this point that far out wiegh the ones that revolve around our draft picks. The recruitment of bell, bastinac, walker, frost have been far more concerning to me then our young fellas. These guys were given long contracts and good money to protect our youth and give it time to develope, however they have been taking up spots in the 2's and forcing our youth to fend for them selves, which translates to the heavy defeats we have seen in past weeks. While I know we as a supporter base get frustrated with the limitations of guys like harwood, c.beams and bewick, we have to understand that these are the guys that get one year deals and are expected to fill the holes that bell, bastinac, walker and frost were employed to fill and that all enjoy the comfort of long term deals and good money. If anyone in the club should be held accountable for our poor performance it should be the 4 misfiring mercenaries that have taken our money and hide behind our youth and the less talented. Though I don't beleive they are the difference between winning and loosing, they are the difference between winning and loosing their position on the field, which makes us more competitive. I believe if the club was not in debt, these 4 guys would be in serious trouble of having their contracts torn up (frost maybe a bit early) at seasons end. Our experience is in the 2's while berry, mccluggage and schache fight it out against men. Those 4 blokes should be ashamed and would be the first 4 that lost their jobs if I had my way and if money permitted. As every game passes, as they play reserves because of their lack of work rate or inability to follow the game plan and I see a bewick turnover or a mccluggage miss tackle or a schache miss mark and I think of what we gave up to get those guys here to make that tackle, hit that target or take that mark. As much as we will need to move on the likes of harwood, bewick, c.beams and potentially freeman to make room on our list for new talent, they could consider them selves unlucky, for they maybe lack a skill or two, but they certainly don't lack the want of trying or effort that seems to failling the 4 that I have previously mentioned. It's guys who lack the will to work that hurt footy clubs and it's those 4 who deserve the wrath of our frustration. Carlton's mature aged recruits have been the difference between winning and loosing. So have ours unfortunately.

 

[jackess]

I think there are far more questionable recruiting decisions that have been made to this point that far out wiegh the ones that revolve around our draft picks. The recruitment of bell, bastinac, walker, frost have been far more concerning to me then our young fellas. These guys were given long contracts and good money to protect our youth and give it time to develope, however they have been taking up spots in the 2's and forcing our youth to fend for them selves, which translates to the heavy defeats we have seen in past weeks. While I know we as a supporter base get frustrated with the limitations of guys like harwood, c.beams and bewick, we have to understand that these are the guys that get one year deals and are expected to fill the holes that bell, bastinac, walker and frost were employed to fill and that all enjoy the comfort of long term deals and good money. If anyone in the club should be held accountable for our poor performance it should be the 4 misfiring mercenaries that have taken our money and hide behind our youth and the less talented. Though I don't beleive they are the difference between winning and loosing, they are the difference between winning and loosing their position on the field, which makes us more competitive. I believe if the club was not in debt, these 4 guys would be in serious trouble of having their contracts torn up (frost maybe a bit early) at seasons end. Our experience is in the 2's while berry, mccluggage and schache fight it out against men. Those 4 blokes should be ashamed and would be the first 4 that lost their jobs if I had my way and if money permitted. As every game passes, as they play reserves because of their lack of work rate or inability to follow the game plan and I see a bewick turnover or a mccluggage miss tackle or a schache miss mark and I think of what we gave up to get those guys here to make that tackle, hit that target or take that mark. As much as we will need to move on the likes of harwood, bewick, c.beams and potentially freeman to make room on our list for new talent, they could consider them selves unlucky, for they maybe lack a skill or two, but they certainly don't lack the want of trying or effort that seems to failling the 4 that I have previously mentioned. It's guys who lack the will to work that hurt footy clubs and it's those 4 who deserve the wrath of our frustration. Carlton's mature aged recruits have been the difference between winning and loosing. So have ours unfortunately.

Bell was questionable. He was a very limited player and was always going to be.
Bastinac played at a decent level last year and we find ourselves with a lack of midfield depth so that recruitment decision could still come good. Also there was the whole academy points thing which meant we might as well have traded that pick.
Walker and Frost are completely justified trades for late picks. Walker was quite good last year but is being held out for Schache and Hipwood; 2 of the best KPP prospects the club has had and Frost has just struggled to find his place.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Correct. And again, he was not on my "has no future at the club list". For reference, Jack Frost was, and he's contracted until 2019.

Lyons was on my "Has to prove he belongs to get another contract" list.

As I have said previously, we can only de-list out of contract players (as far as I am aware), which means even though we might like to de-list Jack Frost at the end of next season, we can't because he will be contracted for one more year, so unfortunately that puts Lyons squarely in the firing line simply because he will be out of contract.

But we will have a couple of Rookie list spots available at the end of next year, so if we want to keep Lyons, we can always pick him up in the rookie draft. If the rookie list still exists by then.

I should point out that my post was in no way a retort to your previous posts or that I don't agree with thinking behind them. My post highlights the deficiencies in the list long term and our lack of ability to rectify them short term, also the anger that some guys who try might get the boot before the actual "list cloggers"(don't really like that term, but it works)

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Bell was questionable. He was a very limited player and was always going to be.
Bastinac played at a decent level last year and we find ourselves with a lack of midfield depth so that recruitment decision could still come good. Also there was the whole academy points thing which meant we might as well have traded that pick.
Walker and Frost are completely justified trades for late picks. Walker was quite good last year but is being held out for Schache and Hipwood; 2 of the best KPP prospects the club has had and Frost has just struggled to find his place.

I understand where you are coming from and the reasons why they were recruited, but my point was about their inability to break into a side that sits at the bottom of the ladder that is filled with kids and guys who lack one or two more skill that these guys possess. As to if they come good thats a different story. They were recruited to remove the burden from the younger guys now, which at present they are not doing and some cases are getting out played by the younger guys or less talented. No probs with what you said. My point still stands

 

[jackess]

I understand where you are coming from and the reasons why they were recruited, but my point was about their inability to break into a side that sits at the bottom of the ladder that is filled with kids and guys who lack one or two more skill that these guys possess. As to if they come good thats a different story. They were recruited to remove the burden from the younger guys now, which at present they are not doing and some cases are getting out played by the younger guys or less talented. No probs with what you said. My point still stands

They could play though. Walker and Bastinac would play more consistently than Hipwood or Schache and McCluggage or Berry but Fagan is getting games into the kids. We've also seen Close play a couple of good games in a row as a strong forward presence but Fagan doesn't feel the need for it and wants to get games into Schache and Hipwood. Plus Walker is now learning how to play in defence which would be great to have someone capable forward, back and giving a chop out in the ruck.

 

[fanackapan]

I think we'll see Walker back into the side for large chunks of the season. Because of our depth in KPF prospects and shortage of key defenders, they're trying to convert him to a defender, so given that, its understandable he's been back in the 2s. He's been doing well there, though, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him holding down a KPD spot in the firsts for much of the second half of the season (taking some pressure off Andrews and Skinner, who are even more exposed than our forwards).

To be honest, I think Walker would probably be a more effective forward for us than Hipwood right now, but there's more value in having Hipwood playing, because he has to learn to play against AFL defenders and at AFL pace.

Frost has been disappointing, but its early days.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

They could play though. Walker and Bastinac would play more consistently than Hipwood or Schache and McCluggage or Berry but Fagan is getting games into the kids. We've also seen Close play a couple of good games in a row as a strong forward presence but Fagan doesn't feel the need for it and wants to get games into Schache and Hipwood. Plus Walker is now learning how to play in defence which would be great to have someone capable forward, back and giving a chop out in the ruck.

As much as I think your right in the case of walker I find it hard to believe fagan would be playing kids over bell, bastinac and frost (especially considering he was a targeted recruit) if these guys were performing at afl level, which they should be, considering the terms of the deals these guys are on. I think it's unfortunate that the contracts aren't or weren't performance based. Plus I would forsee a bleak future for fagan if he chose to play kids over mature bodies who were performing (loosing big v competitive loss or win)

 

[jackess]

As much as I think your right in the case of walker I find it hard to believe fagan would be playing kids over bell, bastinac and frost (especially considering he was a targeted recruit) if these guys were performing at afl level, which they should be, considering the terms of the deals these guys are on. I think it's unfortunate that the contracts aren't or weren't performance based. Plus I would forsee a bleak future for fagan if he chose to play kids over mature bodies who were performing (loosing big v competitive loss or win)

Well they haven't been given a chance. Walker has played the whole season down back and the only game in the seniors Bastinac played as a midfielder was against the Bulldogs. Walker by all reports looks pretty decent as a backman and could play there in the seniors at some point in the season and Bastinac has looked a few levels above the rest of the midfield in the reserves but Fagan doesn't want to play him for some reason.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

In my humble opinion you dont recruit mature aged players to play in the 2's, so they are there for reason. What that is? I am not the coach, but from seeing the games it's my opinion that fagan believes the kids offer more growth and enthusiasm or effort then the likes of bastinac, bell, walker and frost or they would be playing.

Edit: I should point out that fagan didn't recruit bell walker bastinac or frost ( cause frost was recruited by schwab) so it doesn't confuse anyone. Even though it's OBVIOUS.

 

[jackess]

In my humble opinion you dont recruit mature aged players to play in the 2's, so they are there for reason. What that is? I am not the coach, but from seeing the games it's my opinion that fagan believes the kids offer more growth and enthusiasm or effort then the likes of bastinac, bell, walker and frost or they would be playing.

Fagan didn't recruit them (bar Frost).

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Well they haven't been given a chance. Walker has played the whole season down back and the only game in the seniors Bastinac played as a midfielder was against the Bulldogs. Walker by all reports looks pretty decent as a backman and could play there in the seniors at some point in the season and Bastinac has looked a few levels above the rest of the midfield in the reserves but Fagan doesn't want to play him for some reason.

Fyi bastinac has played 3 games not 1 so plenty of opportunities just hasn't taken them imo

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Fagan didn't recruit them (bar Frost).

Oh brother. Don't worry. Not my point.

 

[jackess]

Fyi bastinac has played 3 games not 1 so plenty of opportunities just hasn't taken them imo

Only 1 in the midfield. Even in pre-season he was played forward.

Oh brother. Don't worry. Not my point.

So they might not fit into Fagan's plans. Walker is being trained up as a backman and Basti has struggled for whatever reason. Schwab and Leppa recruited the others.

The people who are playing them in the twos didn't recruit them to play in the twos.