Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2

[Funk]

It was posted on here in May or June of 15 that Hendo, Yarran and Menzel were told they were out.
Bell and Gibbs wanted out for family reasons, I think we were happy enough for the former to go, the latter begrudgingly, but you're kidding yourself if you think Tuohy leaving wasn't 100% SOS.

I'm not surprised Yarran and Menzel were told "they were out".

Both super talented but lazy buggers and subsequent history tells us SOS was absolutely spot on to move them on and get what he could (in hindsight what he got was ridiculous).

They managed 4 further AFL games between them at an average of 9.50 possessions per game..

Would you have kept them?

Moving them on certainly didn't cause us to "bottom out" as is being claimed!!!

So Tuohy was moved on because he wanted stupid money for his relative output and played the only position we had depth in.

A more relevant question for you and our know all Tiger friend is "what would you have done?"

 

[Stamos]

A more relevant question for you and our know all Tiger friend is "what would you have done?"

I think you misunderstand, SOS' list management has been brilliant. I might have some issues with his late pick ups last year (O'Shea, Shaw, Mullet) and it is too early to tell on his drafting (I think it's looking pretty bloody good), but his list management is pretty much flawless (I suppose you could argue about cutting Gowers).

You can't argue that trading out so many senior players and replacing them with kids hasn't made us less competitive though. Bottoming out wasn't the aim of this trading (which I think you think we are suggesting), it was just an inevitable consequence. And they AFL aren't going to pony up a priority pick because of it.

 

[Funk]

So decision shouldn't be made during the season then you go and say we are a certainty to get one and the season isn't over. Which one is it?

We don't deserve one. We hired shithouse recruiters and suffered the consequences, We cannot develop talent of any sort and are we are where we are because we cut our list so deep.

Again we don't deserve it, We got ourselves into this mess and need to get ourselves out of this mess.

I mean ffs, as of last year we had 4 no.1 draft picks on our list and we are still shit. Club needs to fix it's on problems and not expect handouts.

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Don't see the logic here Frumpy.

Every club that finishes on the bottom of the ladder "got ourselves into this mess" and "deserve it".

It takes lots of dumb decisions to finish on the bottom of the ladder - just like Carlton, Hawks, Dees and others.

Logic says if they were making smart decisions they wouldn't end up on the bottom of the ladder!!

If the AFL wants competitive games each week they would be wise to give the "stuffed up" clubs more assistance - because I can guarantee you no free agents of any quality will be going bottom 6 clubs.

Keeping in mind of course that these gun free agents arrive at the top clubs at zero cost - which makes it even harder for lowly clubs to rise up.

 

[katmanblue]

So decision shouldn't be made during the season then you go and say we are a certainty to get one and the season isn't over. Which one is it?

We don't deserve one. We hired shithouse recruiters and suffered the consequences, We cannot develop talent of any sort and are we are where we are because we cut our list so deep.

Again we don't deserve it, We got ourselves into this mess and need to get ourselves out of this mess.

I mean ffs, as of last year we had 4 no.1 draft picks on our list and we are still shit. Club needs to fix it's on problems and not expect handouts.

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Every team got themselves into the mess they are in. Unless a plane goes down with the whole team or something.

That is a nothing arguement.

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[Funk]

I think you misunderstand, SOS' list management has been brilliant. I might have some issues with his late pick ups last year (O'Shea, Shaw, Mullet) and it is too early to tell on his drafting (I think it's looking pretty bloody good), but his list management is pretty much flawless (I suppose you could argue about cutting Gowers).

You can't argue that trading out so many senior players and replacing them with kids hasn't made us less competitive though. Bottoming out wasn't the aim of this trading (which I think you think we are suggesting), it was just an inevitable consequence. And they AFL aren't going to pony up a priority pick because of it.

I think you misunderstand me (story of my life ha ha ha!!)

But seriously speaking I took exception to our Tiger visitor claiming we deliberately traded out good players to bottom out.

My point (yet again!!!) being we "bottomed out" because we f***ed up 8 consecutive drafts (with the exception of Cripps).

Then we traded out very average players (based on output - not talent) for some excellent young talent and draft picks - hardly the cause of our demise.

As I stated 43 players out - only 7 remaining on AFL lists.

Of the 8 players traded/free agents (note the other 35 were not picked up by any of the other 17 clubs except Gower 2 years later) they have managed a total of 31 games this year i.e. approx 4 games each.

That alone tells all who care to listen all they need to know.

i.e. it is not our trades that screwed us - more our drafting/player development.

 

[Stamos]

i.e. it is not our trades that screwed us - more our drafting/player development.

Nobody is saying that our trades screwed us (with the exception of Gibbs in the short term), but trading out those players (not the ones we cut) has made us less competitive this season.

 

[katmanblue]

It could be argued that the trade concessions given to gws and gc at a time we were bottoming out also contributed to the mess we are in by making good players unavailable to us.


Ok, i know its a long bow, but no worse than saying we got ourserlves into this mess.

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[Metalcrusher]

Nobody is saying that our trades screwed us (with the exception of Gibbs in the short term), but trading out those players (not the ones we cut) has made us less competitive this season.

Can you do me a favour and list the players traded out that :

a) wanted to remain at CFC
b) weren't AFL quality players to begin with
c) was an ego call on what a player thought they were worth V what the club thought they were worth.

This is not a personal dig at just you btw …. just getting a little tired of the diatribe.

 

[Stamos]

Can you do me a favour and list the players traded out that :

a) wanted to remain at CFC
b) weren't AFL quality players to begin with
c) was an ego call on what a player thought they were worth V what the club thought they were worth.

This is not a personal dig at just you btw …. just getting a little tired of the diatribe.

It's hardly a diatribe, and I have already listed them.
You seriously think if Henderson (current injury aside), Tuohy and Gibbs were playing in our team this year we would be as uncompetitive as we've been? Gibbs is the only one we didn't want to lose.

 

[blue healer]

Can you do me a favour and list the players traded out that :

a) wanted to remain at CFC
b) weren't AFL quality players to begin with
c) was an ego call on what a player thought they were worth V what the club thought they were worth.

This is not a personal dig at just you btw …. just getting a little tired of the diatribe.

Just as a point of interest I'd like to know what relationship your last line has to your first in that post.

I don't have a dog in this fight but this is why this board is getting so confrontational.

 

[Metalcrusher]

It's hardly a diatribe, and I have already listed them.
You seriously think if Henderson (current injury aside), Tuohy and Gibbs were playing in our team this year we would be as uncompetitive as we've been? Gibbs is the only one we didn't want to lose.

Ill bite.

TL;DR respond to the post ….. list the players and I will do my utmost, whilst I still maintain motor function to do so.

Now ….. I'll work with the ones you have given me.


Hendo …. actively stopped playing 1/2 way through the 2015 season to get the message to CFC he wanted out. If we had of "kept" him …. what was the benefit to CFC? FFS he even got his mother involved in trying to sort out a trade. Real mans .. man that one. Can make decisions all by himself. He had his "best year" in 2013 playing his career best footy for CFC. He did not WANT to stay at CFC!

Ranked 9th in Total Marks in 2013

Ranked 3rd in Total Contested Marks in 2013

Ranked 9th in Total Time On Ground % in 2013

Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game in 2013

That was 5 years ago ….

BTW Hendo has not played a game this year … so how would he have value added to CFC if he was still playing for us?????

He is the epitome of wasted talent with a shithouse, egocentric look at moi look at moi attitude.

Touhy …. Sat down for a contract negotiation that didn't quite play out how was expected. CFC gave him a number …. Touhy chose another path. Excellent … business models working as intended within the free market. Play on.

Lets look at some of his recent career highlights....

Ranked 9th in Total Turnovers in 2018

Ranked 3rd in Total Turnovers in 2017

BTW those stats are competition wide …. not exclusive to GFC.

Just what you need playing in defence …. cough the ball up where it hurts …. CFC made an offer he declined it … CFC valued him at X … didn't like it … fair enough play on.

What was your last one??? Gibba …. ah yes … I love Gibbsie. Always have. Quality player.

Bryce...
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...e-gibbs-move-to-adelaide-20171129-gzv0c3.html

Ok so a former Number 1 wants to go home …. he tried it once …. Reid ****ed it up big time. Google it, if you want hilarity and much mirth. The next year he approached the club again …… this time it worked. Both clubs paid and delivered what they should have delivered the year prior.

What did you want CFC to do here? Hold a player against their will because of family support and ties? Whilst they are building a new family??? How should have Carlton played this better?

Scenario: Worker comes to you and says boss … love this club .. but missus wants to be back with family … where we have more support to raise the young ones. Appreciate what you have given me / us … but circumstances have changed personally, can you help us out? I won't publicly lambast the club … just try to reach a deal where it is fair on both parties...…

Seriously those are the three names you gave me ….

 

[Metalcrusher]

Just as a point of interest I'd like to know what relationship your last line has to your first in that post.

I don't have a dog in this fight but this is why this board is getting so confrontational.

You do have a dog in this fight mate …. I'm sure you support Carlton, yes? If not …. why are you on this board ….. You have to consider other posters opinions, yours is not always right, neither is mine, its just and OPINION. Banter, argue, but also realise when you drive out shit … the garbage collector is probably going to lift that bin right up into the compactor.

 

[Stamos]

Ill bite.

TL;DR respond to the post ….. list the players and I will do my utmost, whilst I still maintain motor function to do so.

Now ….. I'll work with the ones you have given me.


Hendo …. actively stopped playing 1/2 way through the 2015 season to get the message to CFC he wanted out. If we had of "kept" him …. what was the benefit to CFC? FFS he even got his mother involved in trying to sort out a trade. Real mans .. man that one. Can make decisions all by himself. He had his "best year" in 2013 playing his career best footy for CFC. He did not WANT to stay at CFC!

Hendo (along with Yarran and Menzel) was told he wouldn't be at Carlton prior to the half way mark of the 2015 season. It was posted on here in May or June. It was 100% SOS, it wasn't Hendo wanting to leave.

Again, Gibbs is the only player who wasn't in SOS' plans to trade.

 

[Dadda Dave]

Hendo (along with Yarran and Menzel) was told he wouldn't be at Carlton prior to the half way mark of the 2015 season. It was posted on here in May or June. It was 100% SOS, it wasn't Hendo wanting to leave.

Again, Gibbs is the only player who wasn't in SOS' plans to trade.

Hendo informed the club he was leaving if irc about 4/5 weeks befor the season ended and wasn't picked again .
To be fair he had the gonads to tell the club ..

 

[Stamos]

Hendo informed the club he was leaving if irc about 4/5 weeks befor the season ended and wasn't picked again .
To be fair he had the gonads to tell the club ..

That was all spin.
Again, SOS was shipping him off. It was known on here much earlier in the season.

 

[blue healer]

You do have a dog in this fight mate …. I'm sure you support Carlton, yes? If not …. why are you on this board ….. You have to consider other posters opinions, yours is not always right, neither is mine, its just and OPINION. Banter, argue, but also realise when you drive out shit … the garbage collector is probably going to lift that bin right up into the compactor.

You're right, I do support Carlton and have done for a lot of years and that's one of the reasons I'm on this board. The other reason is I like to read other peoples opinions and watch the debate that results when posters have different views, I sometimes even like to debate those views and I always enjoy the laughs provided by some of our funnier posters.

What I don't like is to see posters abused and ridiculed because of the opinions they have, this stifles debate and, in the most extreme cases, amounts to a form of bullying.

In other words the garbage collector might have to get rid of the shit but he doesn't have to be an obnoxious prick in doing so.

This is not a personal dig at you btw -- just getting a little sick of the confrontation.

 

[skadoosh]

How good would it have been to see Doc, Marchbank, Williamson, Pickett and Kennedy play all 22 games this season. Injuries suck...I hope we don't see a repeat of anything remotely similar next year.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Hendo (along with Yarran and Menzel) was told he wouldn't be at Carlton prior to the half way mark of the 2015 season. It was posted on here in May or June. It was 100% SOS, it wasn't Hendo wanting to leave.

Again, Gibbs is the only player who wasn't in SOS' plans to trade.

Now you mention 2 other players ….

Troy Menzel.... potential gun … so much so after we drafted him in 2012 .. he went to Adelaide, who at the time had a much better regime and culture (excuse the Controlling minds crap recently), than Carlton did in 2015, because we didn't develop him … or nurture him or something.

This is his brief bio:

Troy Menzel (born 22 September 1994) is a former professional Australian rules footballer who played for the Carlton Football Club and Adelaide Football Club in the Australian Football League (AFL)

So after he got drafted he went to Adelaide in 2015 who finished 7th on the ladder. Next year Adelaide finished 5th (of which he did not play 1 single game). So a reasonably well healed club …. yet they delisted him in 2017 after 2 years on their list and played a sum total of 4 game for AFC … and never made it back to AFL ranks so far ….

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-adelaide-crows--troy-menzel

Currently playing for Tea Tree Gully … google it.

Chris Yarran

I love Yaz …. tinged with absolute regret. Really don't want to post about him … so sad.

So the newest editions to your post on players CFC have screwed up / screwed …. have not made it anywhere except provisional country leagues after having second chances at other clubs …..


Next ……

 

[ShanDog]

It could be argued that the trade concessions given to gws and gc at a time we were bottoming out also contributed to the mess we are in by making good players unavailable to us.


Ok, i know its a long bow, but no worse than saying we got ourserlves into this mess.

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It certainly contributed IMO. Have said it a few times that there was a perfect storm of internal and external circumstances that saw us get to the bottom of the well and then keep digging, so to speak. Whereas a team like Hawthorn made the right calls about rebuilding their club and did it at the right time before the expansion clubs were a factor in several drafts.

Edit: probably more so Geelong, but Hawks also did their business before too.

 

[Metalcrusher]

The only people questioning his character are irate Carlton supporters who bought the message that he was walking out on the club, rather than the truth that we were shipping him off for a top 10 draft pick.

I think SOS' assessment was that he was unlikely to be a premiership player for Carlton, and the top 10 pick was more important to us.

He dropped tools … played like a hack halfway through the season.

 

[FRUMPY]

Don't see the logic here Frumpy.

Every club that finishes on the bottom of the ladder "got ourselves into this mess" and "deserve it".

It takes lots of dumb decisions to finish on the bottom of the ladder - just like Carlton, Hawks, Dees and others.

Logic says if they were making smart decisions they wouldn't end up on the bottom of the ladder!!

If the AFL wants competitive games each week they would be wise to give the "stuffed up" clubs more assistance - because I can guarantee you no free agents of any quality will be going bottom 6 clubs.

Keeping in mind of course that these gun free agents arrive at the top clubs at zero cost - which makes it even harder for lowly clubs to rise up.

I don't think anyone should get one full stop. But if they were to have it I think an interstate club like Brisbane who lose their top draft picks because there are 10 melbourne clubs poaching them may deserve it.

To give us a handout because we couldn't pick up any good players or if we did, we couldn't develop them is bullshit. Time for the club to stand on its on 2 feet and get the internal stuff right like drafting and player development.

Secondly we didn't have to cut our list so much if we wanted to be competitive. But we decided to get rid of those who wont be part of our future planned success or were not working hard enough even though it meant we would be less competitive. This was our choice and we don't deserve a handout.

Maybe the club should stop trading for so many GWS rejects like Jaksch, Palmer, Whiley, Sumner, Lamb and then blokes who are clearly, and never were good enough like Kerridge, Smedts etc.

People complaining we aren't campaigning for an extra draft pick are probably those supporters who secretly want us to win the spoon to get the no.1 draft pick, because that means we get the best player and therefor success. Well Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Weitering hasn't resulted in shit. But yes, please give us more draft picks so we can go and underdevelop them like so many draft picks before them.

 

[FRUMPY]

Player Developmet is our biggest issue full stop and has been for about 10 years. We have an uncanny talent in finding talented young kids and undeveloping them into run of the mill players will bad skills. Rinse and repeat.

David Cuningham is a prime example. Pick 23 in the draft, clearly has talent but is he a better player now than when we drafted him in 2015? Not a chance.

Has played 16 games in 3 years. Has a full preseason and doesn't get selected for rnd 1 (on form - how is this possible, what the **** are they doing down there) and was dropped after playing the next 3 games when we could barely put together 22 players. Absolute indictment on our club the way he has been developed and managed. We continually see it player after player after player.

And lets not get started on how far back Weitering has fallen. Shell of the player he was in his first year when we hadn't had enough time to undevelop him.

 

[pinot]

Well one thing I have learnt is a Carlton 300 game player getting his wish. I'd like to say welcome Dylan Shiel but I won't.

 

[Pablito]

Player Developmet is our biggest issue full stop and has been for about 10 years. We have an uncanny talent in finding talented young kids and undeveloping them into run of the mill players will bad skills. Rinse and repeat.

David Cuningham is a prime example. Pick 23 in the draft, clearly has talent but is he a better player now than when we drafted him in 2015? Not a chance.

Has played 16 games in 3 years. Has a full preseason and doesn't get selected for rnd 1 (on form - how is this possible, what the **** are they doing down there) and was dropped after playing the next 3 games when we could barely put together 22 players. Absolute indictment on our club the way he has been developed and managed. We continually see it player after player after player.

And lets not get started on how far back Weitering has fallen. Shell of the player he was in his first year when we hadn't had enough time to undevelop him.

Nail on head.

 

[DIG]

Don't see the logic here Frumpy.

Every club that finishes on the bottom of the ladder "got ourselves into this mess" and "deserve it".

It takes lots of dumb decisions to finish on the bottom of the ladder - just like Carlton, Hawks, Dees and others.

Logic says if they were making smart decisions they wouldn't end up on the bottom of the ladder!!

If the AFL wants competitive games each week they would be wise to give the "stuffed up" clubs more assistance - because I can guarantee you no free agents of any quality will be going bottom 6 clubs.

Keeping in mind of course that these gun free agents arrive at the top clubs at zero cost - which makes it even harder for lowly clubs to rise up.

I totally agree with this. Being holier than thou is pointless.

But it's the process itself that sucks, bottom teams having to approach the AFL and beg for a priority pick is disgusting, the AFL themselves should decide independently.

Free agency needs to be looked at too, but I fear for a club like the Gold Coast more than us in that respect, although I don't hold much hope we'll land a big fish this year either.