2019 F1 Championship Round 19 - United States Grand Prix - 1-3 November

darth_timon

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Hamilton's not always deemed the most likeable of guys. Common complaints I see concern his apparent petulance and arrogance. Sometimes, via the radio messages, or after a poor qualifying session, Hamilton is seen as moody. The truth? He can be all of those things - but so can any driver, and any top sporting professional - no one who is driven to succeed as much as these guys are achieves what they achieve because they accept anything less than the absolute best from themselves. Second place is not good enough to Lewis Hamilton. He strives for excellence and will aggressively do what he can to hold onto a place. In the process, he's honed his skills as a driver, being supreme in wet conditions, able to adapt to changing rules and circumstances, and manage his tyres brilliantly. He's fought with some of the very best drivers of his generation, including Fernando Alonso, Sebastian Vettel, Kimi Raikkonen and Max Verstappen, and he has not shirked from the challenge. Having won title six, having won 83 races at the time of writing this, and with 87 pole positions, Hamilton must have an eye on Schumacher's aforementioned record of titles - but he is also just eight wins shy of equalling Schumacher's win record as well. What once looked beyond reach, suddenly seems vulnerable. No matter what people may say about Hamilton as a person, his talent cannot be questioned.
 

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Skull Face

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You need to name them.
Lewis may have been “in the best car” for a long time, but some of that is down to his input in developing that car.
Remember he took the punt, leaving a champion team for a team that was not setting the world on fire. Big risk, but paid off.
Max is hands down the best on the grid at the minute, I still firmly believe Vettel would beat him h2h given the rosberg/webber guideline which makes Ricciardo and maybe Leclerc ahead of him as well.

Certainly in no way near a cut above his peers, if anyone is that is Max as much as I don't like him.
 

Black_White

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Max is hands down the best on the grid at the minute, I still firmly believe Vettel would beat him h2h given the rosberg/webber guideline which makes Ricciardo and maybe Leclerc ahead of him as well.

Certainly in no way near a cut above his peers, if anyone is that is Max as much as I don't like him.
Max is good, no doubt, and this year I’m glad to see his maturity in races.
But better than Hamilton? Not yet.
Ricciardo will never achieve one WC let alone 6. But he certainly is the best overtaker out there, no matter the machinery under him. Leclerc has it all in front of him, but as already shown, a bit of a Lewis clone when it comes to petulance. He is the only one I would consider can go with Lewis, on and off track.
 

Skull Face

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Max is good, no doubt, and this year I’m glad to see his maturity in races.
But better than Hamilton? Not yet.
Ricciardo will never achieve one WC let alone 6. But he certainly is the best overtaker out there, no matter the machinery under him. Leclerc has it all in front of him, but as already shown, a bit of a Lewis clone when it comes to petulance. He is the only one I would consider can go with Lewis, on and off track.
I am talking pure raw speed who would win in the same machinery, I don't care how many world titles he has won that is 95% in control of the team you drive for, only 2 teams have won the WDC in the last 11 years now. Sainz was slower then Hulkenburg last year, getting into a faster car doesn't make him better then Hulk.
 

Black_White

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I am talking pure raw speed who would win in the same machinery, I don't care how many world titles he has won that is 95% in control of the team you drive for, only 2 teams have won the WDC in the last 11 years now. Sainz was slower then Hulkenburg last year, getting into a faster car doesn't make him better then Hulk.
Championships are in the record books.
The rest of any conversation is just fluff.
 

Ok Boomer

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Good result for Dan.

Lewis isn't my cup of tea but there is no doubt he is great at what he does and has been in an environment for many years now where he can be himself while setting the standard.
 

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Broken

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....Common complaints I see concern his apparent petulance and arrogance. Sometimes, via the radio messages, or after a poor qualifying session, Hamilton is seen as moody. ....
The Hamilton fandom in the Sky broadcasts has led me to not be a Lewis fan, however, in his defence the bolded point is something that we were never privy to in previous eras. The access to driver radio is unprecedented and I dare say that champions in the past were just as whingy/needy/moody than Lewis is, but we never got a chance to see that as that access was never available before now.
 
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boondy

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The original statement was that he was a level above his peers which simply isn't the case, arguing based on how many championships is just telling us who had the best car.
Bottas is his only peer atm . Mercedes finish 1 . 2 every year and they dont have the 2 Best drivers .
 

drd23

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"Valteri, its James" makes that statement patently false. And results =/= driving ability
 

drd23

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Only if it was used every race. The fact is "Valteri, its James" has been used twice as far as I can remember.
Once is enough to prove that the team doesn't seem that as peers, let alone two

Just out of curiosity, how would you rank driving ability if not on results. A mothers intuition ?
Ignoring the fact I'm pretty sure you're being intentionally obtuse, results obviously are a part of it but given its nowhere close to a spec series they shouldn't be used as a measure of ability alone. Lap times/results relative to their team mate, overtaking moves made/attempted, handling in the wet and decision making all play a part.

Or do you seriously think that Valterri is the second best driver in F1?
 

happy_eagle

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Once is enough to prove that the team doesn't seem that as peers, let alone two
But how many races has Bottas, Rosberg, Button, Kovalinen or Alonso not been allowed (or hamstrung) from racing Lewis ?
The fact is that on most race weekends, Lewis goes into Qualifying and Race with the same car and instructions as his teammate. His record against them speaks for itself.

Lap times/results relative to their team mate
Most poles in F1. Constantly out qualifying teammates in the same car.

overtaking moves made/attempted
As far as I can recall, he's managed to overtake when needed. The strength of his car hasn't required him to overtake alot, but that doesn't mean he can't do it. The same can't be said for his teammates.

handling in the wet and decision making all play a part.
Once again, I can't recall this being an issue for him ?

I apologise for being obtuse, but it just annoys me a little when some people (not necessarily you) try to undermine Lewis' achievements because they don't like him personally.
 

drd23

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I wasn't talking about Lewis though, I was talking about Bottas as the post immediately before mine said Bottas was Lewis' only peer because he was part of all the Merc 1-2s of the last few years.

Pretty sure I've said on multiple occasions that Lewis is probably the best driver of this current generation. He also happens to be a massive flog
 
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Black_White

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The original statement was that he was a level above his peers which simply isn't the case, arguing based on how many championships is just telling us who had the best car.
So Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc, etc, are untalented and only F1champions because of their cars?
Ok........
 

Skull Face

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So Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc, etc, are untalented and only F1champions because of their cars?
Ok........
That is a bit of a reach now isn't it? Bit absurd to be pretending that is what I am saying by stating Hamilton isn't a level above his peers.

I am only in my 30s so I'll never make comments on Senna, Prost, etc as I never watched them race and I wouldn't have a clue how much the car influenced the result.

You put any driver on.the grid in that Mercedes and give them a slower teammate they all win the last 6 years? Championships, if you are watching F1 to see talented drivers you let the goat pass you by in Sebastian Loeb.
 

Skull Face

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I don't think they would.
Its a difficult statement to qualify with statistics, so I will just leave it that. I don't think they would.
How much of a gap do you really think there is between top to bottom? I'd put it at around 6-8 tenths max.

There is a bigger gap then that between red bull and McLaren.
 

happy_eagle

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How much of a gap do you really think there is between top to bottom? I'd put it at around 6-8 tenths max.

There is a bigger gap then that between red bull and McLaren.
Lets say that Lewis is the best driver on the grid, and Stroll is the worst (could argue others, but Stroll sucks).
Both of those drivers in a Mercedes and I reckon Stroll would be at least 1 second off on flying lap pace.

Even at 6-8 tenths that's the difference between being on pole and being 3rd-4th in their dominant years, likely 5th-6th this year.

The only drivers I could see replicating what Hamilton has done at Mercedes (and even then they wouldn't necessarily be odds on) in the same circumstances (vs Rosberg then vs Bottas) would be Vettel or Alonso.
Max and Daniel would have probably won a title or two in the car, but not 5/6.
 

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