List Mgmt. 2019 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy

[Andre the Giant]

Setterfield and now this. I don't understand this, paying salary overs tactic. Not much to win and plenty to lose. If they don't wanna be here for a minimal pay increase from the standard draftees contract then let them go. Load the contracts with incentives, minimum games played, top 10 B&F finish, payday. fu** this rubbish of paying overs to stay for 3rd or 4th year players who have barely played.

It’s an unfortunate biproduct of being a small interstate club and the same issue faced by GCS.

Look the Bonar drafting is a bust which is unfortunate but the 17 draft did net us a couple of jets so fortunately it isn’t a disaster. He was a high risk/reward selection and it did not pay off but that happens sometimes.

On the positive side with the movement of Patton, Tomlinson, Deledio and Bonar we have cleared significant salary cap space which gives us more ammo to try to keep Whitfield, Cameron and Williams.

I do hope if we managed to trade up to pick 3 that we use it for a need. I do think we really need an injection of speed particularly down back which would give us more flexibility with Williams.

I hope we throw the kitchen sink to get pick 3, worry about next years draft later on.

 

[Pres]

Foot in both camps for me but pretty happy picking up Aiden.

I thought he showed great signs NAB Cup running through the middle but he never seemed to get going in seemingly a variety of NEAFL roles.

Pretty sure he's an 80% midfield player which wasn't happening at GWS so a win win. He's hard and courageous so Rhyce will like him I think .

 

[Giant Strides]

I don't like (a) drafting misses and (b) losing potential talent for sweet * all, but to be fair, we still have plenty of talent on the list and need to just concentrate on the positives.

Patton - not a huge loss because HH & TOJ amply filled the second/third tall roles and are much more flexible and mobile than Jonno; only issue now is the backup tall forward list is threadbare

Bonar - stuck in queue; plenty of other options to break out in the next year or two

Tommo - great club guy, but this year certainly went backwards (while still playing all except 1 game) so useful to clear him out and give others a chance to shine

Hopefully Caldwell, O'Halloran & Hately get more opportunities next year to show their wares.

So, looking forward to the draft, what do people assess should be our priority areas to draft, and options?

 

[Mich0]

It’s an unfortunate biproduct of being a small interstate club and the same issue faced by GCS.

Look the Bonar drafting is a bust which is unfortunate but the 17 draft did net us a couple of jets so fortunately it isn’t a disaster. He was a high risk/reward selection and it did not pay off but that happens sometimes.

On the positive side with the movement of Patton, Tomlinson, Deledio and Bonar we have cleared significant salary cap space which gives us more ammo to try to keep Whitfield, Cameron and Williams.

I do hope if we managed to trade up to pick 3 that we use it for a need. I do think we really need an injection of speed particularly down back which would give us more flexibility with Williams.

I hope we throw the kitchen sink to get pick 3, worry about next years draft later on.

Don’t think GWS has the currency for pick 3 anymore.

Doubt Dees would want to downgrade from a Young/Serong (Pick 3) to an Stephens/Ash (Pick 7) and also push back pick 8 to 9 at the same time to only get a pick in the 20s back (GWS 2020 first rounder)

We need top end talent in and a pick in the 20s next year in a compromised draft is unlikely to be enough to downgrade I feel.

Both the Demons top 10 picks would move back by an extra 1 when GWS draft a Young/Serong at 3 and then also take Green with points.

3&8 to 7&9 with only a pick in the 20s as compensation essentially. No team would take that deal.

 

[bawks_riddle]

Don’t think GWS has the currency for pick 3 anymore.

Doubt Dees would want to downgrade from a Young/Serong (Pick 3) to an Stephens/Ash (Pick 7) and also push back pick 8 to 9 at the same time to only get a pick in the 20s back (GWS 2020 first rounder)

We need top end talent in and a pick in the 20s next year in a compromised draft is unlikely to be enough to downgrade I feel.

Both the Demons top 10 picks would move back by an extra 1 when GWS draft a Young/Serong at 3 and then also take Green with points.

3&8 to 7&9 with only a pick in the 20s as compensation essentially. No team would take that deal.

!00% spot on GWS has got to cute and it is going to burn them both Adelaide and Sydney will bid on Green so you have just moved up for nothing well done lads great work. Demons will not do a trade (already knocked back). Green great get but no player plus Green.

 

[dlanod]

Honestly, is the kid any good?

He had two years left on his contract.

Have we got ourselves a steal, or have we picked up the tab for somebody else's party?

Too early to tell, but given what you paid in draft picks I think the tab is pretty light. Good trade by NM - worst case for them is a reserves player for two years, best case is a free star. They've already got cap space to burn.

Setterfield and now this. I don't understand this, paying salary overs tactic. Not much to win and plenty to lose. If they don't wanna be here for a minimal pay increase from the standard draftees contract then let them go. Load the contracts with incentives, minimum games played, top 10 B&F finish, payday. fu** this rubbish of paying overs to stay for 3rd or 4th year players who have barely played.

Sydney does it, Brisbane does it, Gold Coast sure as hell does it. If you don't do the loading the kid won't re-sign early. If they don't re-sign early, it's two years of "will they, won't they" and Vic/home state clubs in his ear which is ultimately very distracting and can stunt the player's development, even before considering them potentially leaving. It's part of the reason we're fighting with a hand tied behind our back up here.

I don't like (a) drafting misses and (b) losing potential talent for sweet fu** all, but to be fair, we still have plenty of talent on the list and need to just concentrate on the positives.

Patton - not a huge loss because HH & TOJ amply filled the second/third tall roles and are much more flexible and mobile than Jonno; only issue now is the backup tall forward list is threadbare

Bonar - stuck in queue; plenty of other options to break out in the next year or two

Tommo - great club guy, but this year certainly went backwards (while still playing all except 1 game) so usefull to clear him out and give others a chance to shine

Hopefully Caldwell, O'Halloran & Hately get more opportunities next year to show their wares.

So, looking forward to the draft, what do people assess should be our priority areas to draft, and options?

Agreed on all of that. I loved Patton but our forward line looks so much better without him. Had a feeling Bonar would go, and Tomlinson out does wonders for my hair with his mark and slow trot back on the mark letting a full zone form in front of him leading to a slow switch. No feel on when to go quick when he's in space, and he frequently is because of that running ability.

 

[Determinant]

I don't like (a) drafting misses and (b) losing potential talent for sweet fu** all, but to be fair, we still have plenty of talent on the list and need to just concentrate on the positives.

Patton - not a huge loss because HH & TOJ amply filled the second/third tall roles and are much more flexible and mobile than Jonno; only issue now is the backup tall forward list is threadbare

Bonar - stuck in queue; plenty of other options to break out in the next year or two

Tommo - great club guy, but this year certainly went backwards (while still playing all except 1 game) so usefull to clear him out and give others a chance to shine

Hopefully Caldwell, O'Halloran & Hately get more opportunities next year to show their wares.

So, looking forward to the draft, what do people assess should be our priority areas to draft, and options?

Three cases I guess;
1. Green is still there at 6
2. We use 6 + picks to match a bid
3. We pick swap our 6 and future first for 3

If we still have 6 I am all about Young or Ash if still on the table if not I like Stephens, 40 I'd be hoping for Sharp or Schoenberg but unlikely they last, Delahunty maybe, after that I haven't done enough research yet...
If we end up with a first pick in the 40s I'd be happy with Delahunty atm, I do all my draft research the week before the draft when there is more knowledge flowing to tap into though.
If we do the swap I think Young is the best fit for us over Serong.

 

[dlanod]

Three cases I guess;
1. Green is still there at 6
2. We use 6 + picks to match a bid
3. We pick swap our 6 and future first for 3

If we still have 6 I am all about Young or Ash if still on the table if not I like Stephens, 40 I'd be hoping for Sharp or Schoenberg but unlikely they last, Delahunty maybe, after that I haven't done enough research yet...
If we end up with a first pick in the 40s I'd be happy with Delahunty atm, I do all my draft research the week before the draft when there is more knowledge flowing to tap into though.
If we do the swap I think Young is the best fit for us over Serong.

You can also trade during a bid.

If we are smart (and another team is interested), we can trade back to give up pick 6 to generate another early pick rather than just spending it on Green. I'm pretty sure Melbourne aren't interested in Green, so let's look at 5 for starters (a bit at 4 is too close to 6's value to be worth stuffing around) - a bid with pick 5 will eat pick 6, leaving us 248 points in credit for use in a future match (note: it will not generate a replacement pick as it is a one for one match in the first round). We could send pick 6 to one of the guys picking in the next few picks after us to get an advantageous later or future pick back.

 

[Giant Strides]

Yes, unlike the earlier comment about GWS 'getting too cute', I think it was more a case of 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. Our original two first round picks were always going to have to be used to match Green - there's no way he would avoid a bid between #3 & #11 - pushing the second down to a late second or early third round pick. So, we looked to get ahead of a bid, (but worst case still able to match a bid of course). In the end, to trade, you need two parties to come to the table. The other teams either wouldn't trade or wanted too much so we took the Saints option when available - and presumably looked to do a further trade earlier but to no avail. We do need to be careful about paying an excessive price. We don't know what may have been asked for but we didn't want to pay. There is now further opportunity as teams reassess their position. So we may still get a chance to come in earlier, depending on what the other teams want and where they assess they can get best value.

If we don't see Green as someone we have committed to, our option is to take the best player who suits us at #6 - which may mean to not match a Tom Green bid at #3 to #5, or match; or we could hope that he gets through without a bid & given our current picks go into deficit in 2020 to pay; or as dlanod suggests trade back for value. For example, Geelong have said they'd like an early pick, so perhaps they would trade their #14, 17 & 24 for our #6, 40, 59 & 60 (almost reverses our original trade with Saints!) which gets them a very early pick & 3 later picks while allowing us to match Green, pick in the second round (e.g. Sharp), and the excess points from the match would enable us to match any bid on Delahunty. For example.

We're still in the game, and the game continues!

 

[slapnutmidget]

Foot in both camps for me but pretty happy picking up Aiden.

I thought he showed great signs NAB Cup running through the middle but he never seemed to get going in seemingly a variety of NEAFL roles.

Pretty sure he's an 80% midfield player which wasn't happening at GWS so a win win. He's hard and courageous so Rhyce will like him I think .

IMO playing in the VFL will be awesome for him playing against big bodies, the NEAFL wasn't doing him any favours

 

[Danny88]

I get that people are frustrated that we keep trading out players for cheap but we are in the unique position where we have so many first rounders but a limited cap. Clubs know they can play hard ball because we can’t walk away from the deal. In the bonar case, there was only one club interested late in the piece and we either make the deal or keep the player... problem is... we can’t keep the player. The scully and Patton deals had similar themes to them (apart from the obvious injury ones).

We saw when clubs have leverage the deal skews... the swans were (unbelievably) looking at giving up two top ten picks for a player who has played 11 games in two seasons!

It’s a value determined by a market that is easily moderated by seemingly minor factors. But it is our reality

 

[Snoochems]

Apologies upfront - I don't follow the footy too closely, but I just heard Patton has left for Hawthorn for a pittance. Is this correct? Why are the giants so s**t at trade? We seem to give up good players for almost nothing in return. It makes no sense and feels like we're just getting shafted every trade period.

 

[dlanod]

Apologies upfront - I don't follow the footy too closely, but I just heard Patton has left for Hawthorn for a pittance. Is this correct? Why are the giants so s**t at trade? We seem to give up good players for almost nothing in return. It makes no sense and feels like we're just getting shafted every trade period.

Because we either lose players like Patton and Scully or players like Cogs and Cameron. Your call (well, not really).

 

[Snoochems]

Because we either lose players like Patton and Scully or players like Cogs and Cameron. Your call (well, not really).

A number 1 draft pick, full forward, coming into his prime - given away for a 4th round pick? And you think this is acceptable?

Maybe it is a choice between players, but at least get something in return that resembles something remotely fair as trade.

 

[bossman111]

A number 1 draft pick, full forward, coming into his prime - given away for a 4th round pick? And you think this is acceptable?

Maybe it is a choice between players, but at least get something in return that resembles something remotely fair as trade.

You gotta look at this in context. It's opportunity cost (aka salary dump) - his 700k salary off the books allows us to maximise offers for Whitfield, Cameron and Williams. Can't look at the trade in isolation. That's why the Tom Scully trade was a win as well.

And tbh, our forward line looks a hell of a lot better without him.

 

[buttons91]

Who will be the first team to bid on Greene? I don't think Melb will so probably Ade or Syd. Will the Giants trade up to one of these picks?

 

[Colonial]

A number 1 draft pick, full forward, coming into his prime - given away for a 4th round pick? And you think this is acceptable?

Maybe it is a choice between players, but at least get something in return that resembles something remotely fair as trade.

Bloke has been injured more than not and was on a massive salary.

Don't like losing originals but we wouldn't of gotten a pick higher and that cash was burning a hole in our cap.

We now have more than enough to extend the players we want to keep next season.

 

[Colonial]

Who will be the first team to bid on Greene? I don't think Melb will so probably Ade or Syd. Will the Giants trade up to one of these picks?

Trying to get in front so we can get someone else before matching for Green.

 

[gee whiz giant]

And tbh, our forward line looks a hell of a lot better without him.

Weirdly, I can't remember a game when Jezza and the General both fired at the same time. Like they both kicked 4 or 5.
It never totally 'clicked' between them.

 

[Danny88]

A number 1 draft pick, full forward, coming into his prime - given away for a 4th round pick? And you think this is acceptable?

Maybe it is a choice between players, but at least get something in return that resembles something remotely fair as trade.

in isolation it is that. In context it is a key forward on a lot of money that will struggle to be best 22 in 2020 (likely). When we go to the trade table and clubs look at us knowing that we will likely lose a whitfield or a cameron if we cannot put together competitive offers next year and this salary is a part of that offer... we have almost no bargaining power. If we walk away- we keep the salary on the books and might not have competitive offers in front of those key players in 2020.

We are constantly in a bent over position when trying to bargain because the list is stacked.

It is our reality... but a good one to have i reckon

 

[Danny88]

Who will be the first team to bid on Greene? I don't think Melb will so probably Ade or Syd. Will the Giants trade up to one of these picks?

I think we will trade up. But again we are bent over the barrel on this one. Pay overs and trade up.... dont pay overs and lose pick 6 for Green.

I think we will pay the overs... can see us losing next years 1st (likely) or second (hope so) to get it done.

 

[Andre the Giant]

I think we will trade up. But again we are bent over the barrel on this one. Pay overs and trade up.... dont pay overs and lose pick 6 for Green.

I think we will pay the overs... can see us losing next years 1st (likely) or second (hope so) to get it done.

I actually think we need to do it whatever it takes but we also need to find a ready made player that is able to play in the now.

Ash to me could play next year and allow Williams to add more speed and creativity to the midfield.

Zac is electric in the centre bounces and really gave us a different look when Leon played him there. Ash has the speed and body to play immediately, if not him Hayden Young as he also can fill that role, he is a deadly kick and also has good size.

I would be annoyed if we did all this to protect the Green bid and then brought in a project that is going to be running around in NEAFL next year. This isn’t a time to do anything cute and overrate our list, it’s a good list but we still get exposed particularly when certain players like Whitfield/Williams miss through injury.

We are in the window now and can not afford to bring in ready made mature talent so need to ensure we bring in difference makers that can press for selection during this period.

 

[dlanod]

A number 1 draft pick, full forward, coming into his prime - given away for a 4th round pick? And you think this is acceptable?

Maybe it is a choice between players, but at least get something in return that resembles something remotely fair as trade.

For starters I don't think we're going to see a prime Patton. After his previous knee reconstruction he looked sluggish and one-dimensional a lot of the time, which is depressing because he is a personal favourite. I'd love to eat crow on this FWIW, although not coming back to play to avoid injury for his new club left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

Were we going to hold on to Patton? You only have leverage if that's a valid scenario, and I think we weren't and everyone knew it. Obviously the salary cap plays a part but at a simple human level, he gave good service to the club, stayed and signed early without any fuss each time, so when he nominated a separate club we didn't hold Patton over the barrel and threaten to retain him. If we did threaten that we'd have to be willing to carry through on it. Would we be markably better with a third round pick instead of a fourth round pick? How does that one round increase compare to an increased risk of losing a Whitfield or a Williams next year because of salary cap constraints because the Patton deal doesn't get done?

It's nice to claim that somehow we could magic up a better pick (the same applies to the Bonar trade, where we did look for a better pick but ultimately had to bite the bullet) but it takes two to trade and if the other club isn't interested in giving up more then what?

 

[sydney_gws]

Bonar for a future third

Meh

He’s not getting a game, his salary is off the books, neither here nor there for me.

We can't afford to waste picks though. Who gave him such a large contract anyway

 

[sydney_gws]

Don’t think GWS has the currency for pick 3 anymore.

Doubt Dees would want to downgrade from a Young/Serong (Pick 3) to an Stephens/Ash (Pick 7) and also push back pick 8 to 9 at the same time to only get a pick in the 20s back (GWS 2020 first rounder)

We need top end talent in and a pick in the 20s next year in a compromised draft is unlikely to be enough to downgrade I feel.

Both the Demons top 10 picks would move back by an extra 1 when GWS draft a Young/Serong at 3 and then also take Green with points.

3&8 to 7&9 with only a pick in the 20s as compensation essentially. No team would take that deal.

I agree. In order to get as good a player as possible as well as green, i want us to go the other way. Try to now turn 6 into more points than 12,18 were. I would try for geelong picks 14 and west coast 2020 first, or something like our first 3 picks for 3 low 20 picks if possible.