List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread

[Strahany]

Plenty of ways the cap space could be used, other than just giving it to Billings. Who are all the re-signings this year? Marshall, McKenzie, King, Sinclair, Gresham - plenty there to frontload in order to meet the 95% minimum.

If you give the money to an undeserving player, just because they’re demanding it, it not only sets a dangerous precedent, but could put players who accepted reasonable offers offside, with respect to how they treat Billings, the club, or both.

If you want to make the case to pay Billings the supposed ~$800K, then that’s fine, but you can’t say it’s for salary cap reasons, because that simply wouldn’t be the case.

 

[The_Steadier]

Richmond are made up of a bulk of solid Bs and a few really high end players, WC as well have a lot of solid if unspectacular players.

We need to get some really high end talent to off set the soldiers.

If King, Gresham, Marshall and Billings can become elite and we draft a gun mid or two in the next two drafts there is no reason we can't be good enough. To me you keep the best of what you have and only trade out or push the starting 22 players out as you get a better prospect already showing enough. Then you have surplus and can move on players. We are in a position where we don't have much to trade out any more without making us worse in the short term.

Draft well with what we have and we are alright IMO.

It's all about timing though.

In 3-5 years time (when gun kids drafted this year and next would really start to perform at A grade level consistently), our current crop of top players (Steven, carlisle, hanners) plus all our best footsoldiers (savage, newnes, bruce etc) will all be past their peak and worse than they are now.

So you're no better off than we are right now- midtable at best.
You'd still have the same amount of top players and footsoldiers- the mix would be the same as now.
All you've done is just changed the names and faces.


We have built this team (for better or worse) around a bulk of players that will be peaking in the next 2-3 years max.
It's too late to do anything about that- we need to make the best of this situation.

Attempting to fiddle around the edges with trading 2nd tier toilers for other 2nd tier toilers will just land us in north melbournes situation.
Stuck in no-man's land, having just traded in a heap of older 2nd tier players on good coin, when they now realise they need to rebuild.
They will now have to waste at least 2 years fixing up that mess.


And it's too late (for this group) to be pinning our hopes of A grade guns coming from the draft.
Unless we somehow get struck by lightning and come up with a joel selwood/ walsh type who is ready to go as an A grade mid immediately- any 18 year old kid ain't gonna come good before our other guns drop off.
I'd be all for us trading our first rounders this year and next if it brought in A grade mature mid(s) with at least 3-4 years elite football left in them.


(Again, for better or worse), we've spent 5+ years going down this same path- it would be utterly stupid to not see where it leads us when we are within sight of the end.

No- I don't think we can win a flag in the next 2 years (stranger things have happened though- see tiges and dogs)... but we're in a situation where we've built to be ready for a flag in the next 2 years.
The only options we have at this point are:
A. Spend 2 years throwing everything we have at a flag before another major rebuild.

B. Spend 2 years in denial about needing a major rebuild, trading in 2nd tier toilers- before finally accepting we need one.
This option will require a further ~2 years of rebuilding to undo the list profile and salary cap mess (ie the North Melbourne experience)
Plus, we spent 7 years building without even ever giving ourselves a chance at a flag.

 

[bird_man]

Plenty of ways the cap space could be used, other than just giving it to Billings. Who are all the re-signings this year? Marshall, McKenzie, King, Sinclair, Gresham - plenty there to frontload in order to meet the 95% minimum.

If you give the money to an undeserving player, just because they’re demanding it, it not only sets a dangerous precedent, but could put players who accepted reasonable offers offside, with respect to how they treat Billings, the club, or both.

If you want to make the case to pay Billings the supposed ~$800K, then that’s fine, but you can’t say it’s for salary cap reasons, because that simply wouldn’t be the case.

We have been front loading contracts for years now to get to the minimum cap. We have also over paid a few players along the way as a bit of a reward.

Getting the cap to 95% wouldn't be the reason to paying Billings 800k, but the fact there is plenty of room means we can do it. Billings would quite easily get his 700k plus to walk to another club. For us to let him walk because we weren't willing to pay him a bit extra would be absolute madness. Especially when he is the type of player we are looking to improve our side.

So if he were to walk, we save a bit of money and end up with likely a mid first round pick. We'd probably use that pick to try and entice a player of his caliber to the club and for that to be successful we'd obviously have to pay that player overs to get him over the line.

Or we take that pick to the draft, target an outside mid and hope that I'm 4 or 5 years he's a better player than Jack.

 

[VDS66]

We have been front loading contracts for years now to get to the minimum cap. We have also over paid a few players along the way as a bit of a reward.

Getting the cap to 95% wouldn't be the reason to paying Billings 800k, but the fact there is plenty of room means we can do it. Billings would quite easily get his 700k plus to walk to another club. For us to let him walk because we weren't willing to pay him a bit extra would be absolute madness. Especially when he is the type of player we are looking to improve our side.

So if he were to walk, we save a bit of money and end up with likely a mid first round pick. We'd probably use that pick to try and entice a player of his caliber to the club and for that to be successful we'd obviously have to pay that player overs to get him over the line.

Or we take that pick to the draft, target an outside mid and hope that I'm 4 or 5 years he's a better player than Jack.

It's the cost of everything and value of nothing syndrome...

 

[Yawkey way]

If we do a medical (independent and external) and he's okay we should look at him but I would be offering a future pick for him before a player, we have nothing GWS would want unless we over paid with a player we can't afford to lose.

I don't think we can trade any more picks out of this draft so it has to be a future pick. I liked him too but offering crazy overs for an untried player doesn't look close to what a professional list management team would do. It looks like the Stocker trade from last year where if it doesn't work out we open ourselves up to a lot of pressure.

As always it depends on so many moving parts, but no I’m not proposing we get him at any price and yes we’re limited in what we have to offer.

I wouldn’t be too worried about what others think we really need to back in the guys we’ve put in place like Allen to get it right. I would be happy to give up our first because I think we definitely miss Rowell and Anderson, maybe we miss the next best mid as well. The deal could also involve pick swaps and players who knows, one thing is sure though it wouldn’t be pick 1 for stocker.

At present it’s anybody’s guess who will actually be available it’s really more the acceptance that we won’t be going far if we just take a first rounder, pick 50 odd and some father sons with late picks. We need to trade and chase free agents plus make every pick we take count.

 

[St Muir]

We can't really afford to sell the new rebuild to members. Players will be leaving next year just through attrition and losing too many at once will make even baselining hard. The new coach is going to have to be tough, I reckon who ever comes in is going to struggle to be anything but bottom 4 especially if we trade away GOPs who lets face it will get second rounders at best.

Our best trade prospects would be Billings, Gresham, Marshall, Ross as first rounders. Membrey, Steele, Bruce, Parker second rounders, Acres, Dunstan etc probably thirds, Longer, Pierce etc all delisted FAs. Newnes would be a FA so probably second round compo pick.

To me we can't afford to lose anyone that is in the first round group and the second round group are worth more to us than the trade is worth.

I get where you are coming from but I think our choices are limited. I think of it as an extension of the re-build rather than starting again, I do think we will need another one in a couple of years, if we don't act though. The players that haven't really kicked on are Ross, Steele, Acres, Dunstan, Newnes and Sinclair in my opinion. I'm not suggesting we trade all of them but that's where we need improvement. I also think Billings has more to offer and would do better with better players around him but I'm still keen to keep him.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Grass is always greener on the other side. If Billings was on another team we would be saying we should throw a blank cheque at him.

 

[CaptainRisky]

It's all about timing though.

In 3-5 years time (when gun kids drafted this year and next would really start to perform at A grade level consistently), our current crop of top players (Steven, carlisle, hanners) plus all our best footsoldiers (savage, newnes, bruce etc) will all be past their peak and worse than they are now.

So you're no better off than we are right now- midtable at best.
You'd still have the same amount of top players and footsoldiers- the mix would be the same as now.
All you've done is just changed the names and faces.


We have built this team (for better or worse) around a bulk of players that will be peaking in the next 2-3 years max.
It's too late to do anything about that- we need to make the best of this situation.

Attempting to fiddle around the edges with trading 2nd tier toilers for other 2nd tier toilers will just land us in north melbournes situation.
Stuck in no-man's land, having just traded in a heap of older 2nd tier players on good coin, when they now realise they need to rebuild.
They will now have to waste at least 2 years fixing up that mess.


And it's too late (for this group) to be pinning our hopes of A grade guns coming from the draft.
Unless we somehow get struck by lightning and come up with a joel selwood/ walsh type who is ready to go as an A grade mid immediately- any 18 year old kid ain't gonna come good before our other guns drop off.
I'd be all for us trading our first rounders this year and next if it brought in A grade mature mid(s) with at least 3-4 years elite football left in them.


(Again, for better or worse), we've spent 5+ years going down this same path- it would be utterly stupid to not see where it leads us when we are within sight of the end.

No- I don't think we can win a flag in the next 2 years (stranger things have happened though- see tiges and dogs)... but we're in a situation where we've built to be ready for a flag in the next 2 years.
The only options we have at this point are:
A. Spend 2 years throwing everything we have at a flag before another major rebuild.

B. Spend 2 years in denial about needing a major rebuild, trading in 2nd tier toilers- before finally accepting we need one.
This option will require a further ~2 years of rebuilding to undo the list profile and salary cap mess (ie the North Melbourne experience)
Plus, we spent 7 years building without even ever giving ourselves a chance at a flag.

Of those highlighted only Steven at his best would be missed , the rest are just good players and that's about it plus don't bank on hanners ever getting back to his best we have no idea on what he is going to be able to produce .
I dont see any point drafting bit or top up players that are going to take us no where , if it isnt quality forget it . We may just need to accept that we are going to be in the bottom half for another few years until we can get some game time into our kids and new draftees
We should be using our first pick this year on a quality young mid and if we can get a second round pick for Blake and Jake id take it , before you go nuts at me tell me how much difference jake makes to our team and in any case he will not be playing when we are contending , I would be putting game time into Clav and when Austin is back id tie a 2mtr piece of rope between him and members and teach him how close he needs to play as a key back . All of the above is just my views.

 

[VDS66]

Of those highlighted only Steven at his best would be missed , the rest are just good players and that's about it plus don't bank on hanners ever getting back to his best we have no idea on what he is going to be able to produce .
I dont see any point drafting bit or top up players that are going to take us no where , if it isnt quality forget it . We may just need to accept that we are going to be in the bottom half for another few years until we can get some game time into our kids and new draftees
We should be using our first pick this year on a quality young mid and if we can get a second round pick for Blake and Jake id take it , before you go nuts at me tell me how much difference jake makes to our team and in any case he will not be playing when we are contending , I would be putting game time into Clav and when Austin is back id tie a 2mtr piece of rope between him and members and teach him how close he needs to play as a key back . All of the above is just my views.

At 70% peak performance, Hanners is sadly one of our top 3 mids.

I'm not fan of Blake but only trade him as part of a deal for a better player.

As for Jake, surely you take the p1ss. 2nd rounder for an untried kid?

Fmd.

Clav maybe in a few years, Austin has no future.

Jake in defence improves us. Just because our defence has held up doesn't mean we can't improve it.

 

[bird_man]

Trading Jake now when his value is low makes no sense. Unless someone us willing to offer a decent first round pick we'd keep him and no one is doing that after his time off. I'm excited to see how a backline of Carlisle, Battle and Marsh looks.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's all about timing though.

In 3-5 years time (when gun kids drafted this year and next would really start to perform at A grade level consistently), our current crop of top players (Steven, carlisle, hanners) plus all our best footsoldiers (savage, newnes, bruce etc) will all be past their peak and worse than they are now.

So you're no better off than we are right now- midtable at best.
You'd still have the same amount of top players and footsoldiers- the mix would be the same as now.
All you've done is just changed the names and faces.


We have built this team (for better or worse) around a bulk of players that will be peaking in the next 2-3 years max.
It's too late to do anything about that- we need to make the best of this situation.

Attempting to fiddle around the edges with trading 2nd tier toilers for other 2nd tier toilers will just land us in north melbournes situation.
Stuck in no-man's land, having just traded in a heap of older 2nd tier players on good coin, when they now realise they need to rebuild.
They will now have to waste at least 2 years fixing up that mess.


And it's too late (for this group) to be pinning our hopes of A grade guns coming from the draft.
Unless we somehow get struck by lightning and come up with a joel selwood/ walsh type who is ready to go as an A grade mid immediately- any 18 year old kid ain't gonna come good before our other guns drop off.
I'd be all for us trading our first rounders this year and next if it brought in A grade mature mid(s) with at least 3-4 years elite football left in them.


(Again, for better or worse), we've spent 5+ years going down this same path- it would be utterly stupid to not see where it leads us when we are within sight of the end.

No- I don't think we can win a flag in the next 2 years (stranger things have happened though- see tiges and dogs)... but we're in a situation where we've built to be ready for a flag in the next 2 years.
The only options we have at this point are:
A. Spend 2 years throwing everything we have at a flag before another major rebuild.

B. Spend 2 years in denial about needing a major rebuild, trading in 2nd tier toilers- before finally accepting we need one.
This option will require a further ~2 years of rebuilding to undo the list profile and salary cap mess (ie the North Melbourne experience)
Plus, we spent 7 years building without even ever giving ourselves a chance at a flag.

Yeah our team with Carlisle Hannerbery and Steven in it has been pretty ordinary this year, causing us to be mid-table.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We have been front loading contracts for years now to get to the minimum cap. We have also over paid a few players along the way as a bit of a reward.

Getting the cap to 95% wouldn't be the reason to paying Billings 800k, but the fact there is plenty of room means we can do it. Billings would quite easily get his 700k plus to walk to another club. For us to let him walk because we weren't willing to pay him a bit extra would be absolute madness. Especially when he is the type of player we are looking to improve our side.

So if he were to walk, we save a bit of money and end up with likely a mid first round pick. We'd probably use that pick to try and entice a player of his caliber to the club and for that to be successful we'd obviously have to pay that player overs to get him over the line.

Or we take that pick to the draft, target an outside mid and hope that I'm 4 or 5 years he's a better player than Jack.

Picks don't entice players , picks are used to trade players.
Player X doesn't really give a crap what his old club gets in exchange.

 

[CaptainRisky]

At 70% peak performance, Hanners is sadly one of our top 3 mids.

I'm not fan of Blake but only trade him as part of a deal for a better player.

As for Jake, surely you take the p1ss. 2nd rounder for an untried kid?

Fmd.

Clav maybe in a few years, Austin has no future.

Jake in defence improves us. Just because our defence has held up doesn't mean we can't improve it.[/QUOTE

You forgot to add IMO , anyway
No P155 taking at all , if you think we would get a first round pick for him well good for you , it wouldnt happen .
You just said our backs have held up reasonable so why not draft a mid , god knows we need them . Plenty of good kids available in the second round i would have thought IMO

 

[VDS66]

I just wouldn't trade him IMO IMO IMO.

 

[bird_man]

Picks don't entice players , picks are used to trade players.
Player X doesn't really give a crap what his old club gets in exchange.

Correct. Obviously I didn't word it correctly but I'm sure you get the gist. We'd use the pick to entice a club, the money to entice the player.

 

[The Enemy Within]

Of those highlighted only Steven at his best would be missed , the rest are just good players and that's about it plus don't bank on hanners ever getting back to his best we have no idea on what he is going to be able to produce .
I dont see any point drafting bit or top up players that are going to take us no where , if it isnt quality forget it . We may just need to accept that we are going to be in the bottom half for another few years until we can get some game time into our kids and new draftees
We should be using our first pick this year on a quality young mid and if we can get a second round pick for Blake and Jake id take it , before you go nuts at me tell me how much difference jake makes to our team and in any case he will not be playing when we are contending , I would be putting game time into Clav and when Austin is back id tie a 2mtr piece of rope between him and members and teach him how close he needs to play as a key back . All of the above is just my views.

Keep Jake he is needed, Blake has got 11 more games to show his worth otherwise trade him to WA as far as Austins concerned he is deadwood & unless you've seen something that i haven't in Clav he is a B grade VFL defender at the moment.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Selling Mc Evoy for picks/ Savage, not offering Dal a contract when he waned to stay, low balling BJ, giving Hawthorn a first rounder that got the O'Meara done for Clark who doesn't seem much better than the players who went around our pick from the year before. Stanley for Hugh Goddard, Freeman for a second round pick, selling Mc Evoy then paying overs for Hickey and Longer, perpetually using future picks but still not getting a huge reward for it.

I would say our best talent has all been in the draft and we waste a lot anyway. Marshall was drafted, Gresham was drafted, Billings drafted, King was drafted. The only one that wasn't a high pick was Mashall. We should be using our high picks on best available talent unless we are getting an A+ mid for the pick.

We apparently got timid with how much we were willing to offer some of our FA targets, if we have a war chest just front load offer a contract to a player like Coniglio and worst case it makes life very hard for GWS to retain talent later.

Ok I’ll go through each individually;

You say we should go to the draft & the McEvoy trade did exactly that. As did letting BJ & Dal go (which I didn’t agree with).

Hickey was overs as Collingwood offered a better pick than the one we had (20). We wanted him so paid up. Safe to say that or the Tom Lee trade wouldn’t have gone through if it was a strong chance Grundy would slide that far. The rest of the guys drafted after our picks were no good until Grundy.

Stanley was a dud, Hugh just bad luck.
Freeman was a miss.
You’re writing off Clark already??? and ignoring the other parts of that trade (Long & Battle).

We couldn’t sign the FAs & OOC’s that we targeted because they didn’t leave their clubs.

We’ve missed on a few like all clubs, we’ve hit on a few too.

Our issue is still having no elite players in their prime (and that stems back beyond the Pelchen/Trout era that you seem to be obsessed with).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gringo2011]

So from that list there Gringo who do we trade then?
We have just signed up Gresham and Marshall for quite a while and there is no way either those 2 go anywhere!
Of the 2nd rounder group, cannot see the club letting go of Membrey, Steele or Parker esp after 1 year
And the 3rd rounders are completely pointless to trade as they have no value!

So that leaves us with Billings, Ross and Bruce.....Pretty sure if the club have their way they will want Billings to stay and will offer him
A substantial contract that he is unlikely to get elsewhere, so that one looks to up to the player!
Which leaves Ross and Bruce! From what i can tell they are def the two most likely to be traded if we want to get in some fresh
Identified talent as we have a crap hand at the draft, so it's either for 1st or 2nd round picks or more likely any one that we can
Attract that is an upgrade outside of the Free agents of course!
As you have pointed out there will be plenty going either through natural attrition, forced retirements and just plain retirements
Plus Newnes possibly to Free Agency!

See what i mean about having to give up something tangible to get something decent!
Of course there is also the chance of Steven or Carlisle leaving for greener pastures! Personally i believe that both will stay, maybe Steven
But i hope not but that's it!
So yeah it's fine to say let's just go to the draft but we have sh!t low picks, so sadly for any fans that have become too attached to
The two mentioned, something has got to give bud!
It's not ideal but it's where we are at unfortunately!

That's what I'm saying, we don't have much to trade. Getting Hickey like trades done is more an exercise in selling off. We will have to replace him with a ruckman as back up for Marshall in case of injury. The replacement will probably cost us more than he got us. He would have been handy as an emergency.

Longer and Pierce would be lucky to get another gig anywhere and especially if they were not delisted free agents. We have traded the cupboard bare and are about to start hocking the furniture. If we were getting a great return every time we did it you'd feel confident in them.

I think we will need to draft, go for FAs and hope our academy/FS pick ups are good. I'm not keen on selling off next years pics again unless it's overwhelmingly in our favour. Selling off future picks is very rarely in the favour of the seller.

 

[gringo2011]

It's all about timing though.

In 3-5 years time (when gun kids drafted this year and next would really start to perform at A grade level consistently), our current crop of top players (Steven, carlisle, hanners) plus all our best footsoldiers (savage, newnes, bruce etc) will all be past their peak and worse than they are now.

So you're no better off than we are right now- midtable at best.
You'd still have the same amount of top players and footsoldiers- the mix would be the same as now.
All you've done is just changed the names and faces.


We have built this team (for better or worse) around a bulk of players that will be peaking in the next 2-3 years max.
It's too late to do anything about that- we need to make the best of this situation.

Attempting to fiddle around the edges with trading 2nd tier toilers for other 2nd tier toilers will just land us in north melbournes situation.
Stuck in no-man's land, having just traded in a heap of older 2nd tier players on good coin, when they now realise they need to rebuild.
They will now have to waste at least 2 years fixing up that mess.


And it's too late (for this group) to be pinning our hopes of A grade guns coming from the draft.
Unless we somehow get struck by lightning and come up with a joel selwood/ walsh type who is ready to go as an A grade mid immediately- any 18 year old kid ain't gonna come good before our other guns drop off.
I'd be all for us trading our first rounders this year and next if it brought in A grade mature mid(s) with at least 3-4 years elite football left in them.


(Again, for better or worse), we've spent 5+ years going down this same path- it would be utterly stupid to not see where it leads us when we are within sight of the end.

No- I don't think we can win a flag in the next 2 years (stranger things have happened though- see tiges and dogs)... but we're in a situation where we've built to be ready for a flag in the next 2 years.
The only options we have at this point are:
A. Spend 2 years throwing everything we have at a flag before another major rebuild.

B. Spend 2 years in denial about needing a major rebuild, trading in 2nd tier toilers- before finally accepting we need one.
This option will require a further ~2 years of rebuilding to undo the list profile and salary cap mess (ie the North Melbourne experience)
Plus, we spent 7 years building without even ever giving ourselves a chance at a flag.

Or then we can keep desperately trying to get good but not excellent players in perpetually and never go anywhere. I hope we just start drafting well myself. Collingwood got Stephenson and Mihocek types cheap and really turned around quickly. Momentum is hard to stop.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Yeah our team with Carlisle Hannerbery and Steven in it has been pretty ordinary this year, causing us to be mid-table.

I just wouldn't trade him IMO IMO IMO.

Really ,,,,,,,,,,

 

[VDS66]

Really ,,,,,,,,,,

IMO

 

[CaptainRisky]

Keep Jake he is needed, Blake has got 11 more games to show his worth otherwise trade him to WA as far as Austins concerned he is deadwood & unless you've seen something that i haven't in Clav he is a B grade VFL defender at the moment.

I have no where given up on Clav ,

 

[The_Steadier]

Yeah our team with Carlisle Hannerbery and Steven in it has been pretty ordinary this year, causing us to be mid-table.

We're not though- we're currently worse than midtable and sliding further.
Sydney will definately fly past us and every chance the dogs and dees could too.

We're currently 4 spots off midtable with a horrible percentage and lost our last 5/6, with the only victory coming from scraping home against the spooners.

Yeah fit jake hanners and jack would raise us to the dizzying heights of 9th I reckon

 

[Mowman]

I have no where given up on Clav ,

Have watched him a couple of times this year at Sandy and not a chance i would give up on him

 

[CaptainRisky]

IMO