List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[bigm386]

Could have had both, but he chose St Kilda.

We aren't exactly bursting with small forwards, but which of our losses can be directly attributed to not having enough of them?

Butler is a good solid footballer flourishing early at a new club that is perfect for him...for now.

We had bigger misses over the past few years than Butler, we have attracted better footballers to the club than Butler, and we are in a position to do so again in the coming years.

I really wish we'd just let it go.

That is the most ridiculous comment. We had a need and still do. Yet we didn't seem to have interest or had conflicted reports (and interviews) about our interest in Butler. Who would be the best small forward on our list.

But yeah why do we need that, we are obviously unbeaten this season. Why improve the list.

 

[Arr0w]

3rd rounder

Splitting hairs over 1 position?

Think we had the currency if we wanted him yeah

 

[Accidental genius]

Can't believe we passed on Butler.

another 4 goals and althoguh i didnt watch the game clearly he was the difference in saints win. our recruiters were napping at the wheel or too busy fueding with one another.

 

[Accidental genius]

We won’t get Papley. That “ship” has sailed. Not that there was ever any real chance of getting him given that we were relying on Dodoro and Essendope being sensible. All the more reason why we should’ve pressed harder for Butler.
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it was a difficult situation for our recuiters because we had a number of options and our hearts were set on papley and we probably didnt rate butler as higly as what he is showing this year. im sure our rcruiters will be thinking that, that was a bad miss as well.

 

[HARKER]

another 4 goals and althoguh i didnt watch the game clearly he was the difference in saints win. our recruiters were napping at the wheel or too busy fueding with one another.

Butler is doing far better than I expected but one has to look at -

The CFC had a heavy focus on smaller forwards with eyes trained on Papely and Martin. That was fair enough.
There may have been a Betts vs Butler 'feud' going on and some may have wanted Betts for one reason and Butler for another.
It's also been brought up here already - If one was Butler, what would have you done? Waited to see what came about post the Papley and Martin trades, or gone somewhere you were wanted immediately and were all but assured a game from round 1. Easy call for Butler.

We would have either had to have guaranteed him a home early in the piece or let him slide. We couldn't make that guarantee.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

the reason I wanted Butler last year had nothing to do with him being capable of being the player he is now. I mean who would’ve thought he was capable of AA level but the game has moved towards having more and more small forwards and it just seemed crazy knowing Betts is turning 34 this year that we wouldn’t prefer him on our list then guys like Polson and O’dywer.

 

[HARKER]

the reason I wanted Butler last year had nothing to do with him being capable of being the player he is now. I mean who would’ve thought he was capable of AA level but the game has moved towards having more and more small forwards and it just seemed crazy knowing Betts is turning 34 this year that we wouldn’t prefer him on our list then guys like Polson and O’dywer.

Nothing wrong with wanting a player but if that player saw opportunity diminish for the types the CFC were after...?
I don't blame Butler for looking at St.Kilda even if his preference may have been Carlton. Opportunity may have been the driving force.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

My opinion on Butler is plain: I think he's played good footy to this point, and in terms of what he could provide onfield would have been better than what Betts would, but I also think that Butler will regress because he's a form player.

I think that Richmond - given a bidding war - would've tried to get a second for him, and it's only the fact that there was a sole suitor that he was that cheap.

He was always going cheap. Yes he will regress but that’s because atm he is probably the best small forward in the comp and easily the best defensively when you look at the stats. It’s attitude with him, even if he had kicked only 10 goals he would be having a great year because what he has done defensively is elite. That is above the shoulders so if he keeps that up then Saints have absolutely nailed it

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Nothing wrong with wanting a player but if that player saw opportunity diminish for the types the CFC were after...?
I don't blame Butler for looking at St.Kilda even if his preference may have been Carlton. Opportunity may have been the driving force.

Doubt it, St Kilda has better small forwards then us. He would’ve just been playing Cuningham’s role or if the dream came true and we got Papley then Martin would’ve probably played higher or one rotate through the bench imo

 

[DangerousD]

It's a bit simplistic though to suggest he'd be scoring that heavily at Carlton though, isn't it?

Different coaches, different players, different styles of play...

I haven't come out of one game this year thinking we lost because we didn't have Butler. I'd be surprised if anyone genuinely had.

It’s a simple way of looking at it, there is also nothing to say his output wouldn’t be higher at the Blues, We don’t know.
I haven’t come out of any game thinking, oh Butler would have been the difference, I’ve come out of quite a few frustrated at the lack of tackling, forward pressure and our forward lines lack of crumbers.

I can easily see why we didn’t trade him in, I think we could have easily got him if we wanted, I don’t think we did. But I think to suggest at the end of the season anyone could say that a 38 (19 game season) goal a year small forward wouldn’t have made any difference to a side who’s leading goal kicker is tracking to end up on 26.

Let that sink in, our leading goal kicker is tracking to finish on 26 goals, Butler is tracking to finish on 38, I’m not sure how that doesn’t equate to more wins.

 

[Arr0w]

Nothing wrong with wanting a player but if that player saw opportunity diminish for the types the CFC were after...?
I don't blame Butler for looking at St.Kilda even if his preference may have been Carlton. Opportunity may have been the driving force.

Perhaps we pursued unrealistic targets in Papley when still contracted for a number of years, added to the fact the reliance of JD being traded

Targetting Martin on the other hand would not of impeded Butler from slotting into the side

12 months on the situation will be similar with Papley, park the idea and focus on a free hit in Williams, where we have ample time to gauge his interest in moving

 

[Accidental genius]

Butler is doing far better than I expected but one has to look at -

The CFC had a heavy focus on smaller forwards with eyes trained on Papely and Martin. That was fair enough.
There may have been a Betts vs Butler 'feud' going on and some may have wanted Betts for one reason and Butler for another.
It's also been brought up here already - If one was Butler, what would have you done? Waited to see what came about post the Papley and Martin trades, or gone somewhere you were wanted immediately and were all but assured a game from round 1. Easy call for Butler.

We would have either had to have guaranteed him a home early in the piece or let him slide. We couldn't make that guarantee.

If I was the one making the call for our club I probably would not have chased butler to any great extent at the time because I literally have no idea. But our recruiters should know better than to miss an opportunity like that. I can’t see why our recruiters could not have targeted papley martin butler and Betts. Betts was always a 1-2 year project and perhaps an off field role following retirement. Martin nominated us and things were sour between him and gcs so chances of landing him were always good. So I don’t see why we couldn’t have brought in butler from the get go and kept our interest high for papley.

 

[HARKER]

Doubt it, St Kilda has better small forwards then us. He would’ve just been playing Cuningham’s role or if the dream came true and we got Papley then Martin would’ve probably played higher or one rotate through the bench imo

St.Kilda had better smaller forwards than Papley and Martin? I don't think so, but it's debatable.
Even so, we could not make a decision or were hamstrung in doing so.....or maybe Butler just preferred what The Saints were selling. I don't know as fact.

Perhaps we pursued unrealistic targets in Papley when still contracted for a number of years, added to the fact the reliance of JD being traded
Targetting Martin on the other hand would not of impeded Butler from slotting into the side
12 months on the situation will be similar with Papley, park the idea and focus on a free hit in Williams, where we have ample time to gauge his interest in moving

The CFC were confident enough in getting Papley on the last day but something happened at Essendon.
Maybe the executive intervened again?

I don't recall what day Butler dropped, but fair to say that even if he did want to get to the CFC, management would have asked him to take the deal on the table from another club and not be possibly left out in the cold.

 

[HARKER]

If I was the one making the call for our club I probably would not have chased butler to any great extent at the time because I literally have no idea. But our recruiters should know better than to miss an opportunity like that. I can’t see why our recruiters could not have targeted papley martin butler and Betts. Betts was always a 1-2 year project and perhaps an off field role following retirement. Martin nominated us and things were sour between him and gcs so chances of landing him were always good. So I don’t see why we couldn’t have brought in butler from the get go and kept our interest high for papley.

Let's turn the heat onto Richmond then also.
Maybe they should have looked at moving on Castagna or Rioli instead of Butler.

Butler's doing very well at the moment but I'll never see him as an opportunity lost, in context.
Good luck to him and good luck to The Saints for getting all they needed in the 2019 trade period. They set their sights on needs and hit all targets.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Just on StKilda they have done a bloody good job over the last few years turning that list over. On the weekend I think we had 7 players playing who were here before the rebuild started, St Kilda only had 3.
I think they are still a fair way off but another good offseason and they could be pretty close, it also sounds like they are going to be very active.

 

[Accidental genius]

Let's turn the heat onto Richmond then also.
Maybe they should have looked at moving on Castagna or Rioli instead of Butler.

Butler's doing very well at the moment but I'll never see him as an opportunity lost, in context.
Good luck to him and good luck to The Saints for getting all they needed in the 2019 trade period. They set their sights on needs and hit all targets.

We can dissect all we want and include Richmond but they have heaps of small forward options. Butler to a team like us has heaps more value than to tigers. Tigers are a good chance to win the flag this year so doubt they will lose too much sleep for losing butler. For us though he was definitely a missed opportunity.

 

[HARKER]

Just on last years draft - Plenty of first rounders have already shown enough to suggest they may be players of the future -

Rowell, Anderson, Jackson, Ash, Stephens, McAsey, Young, Serong, Day Green and Georgiades are the players in the top 20 that have stood out to me.

That's not a bad outcome given we're only half way into the shortened fixture.
Now, just for our top 20 picks to show something....Next year?

 

[BlueBlood15]

Just on StKilda they have done a bloody good job over the last few years turning that list over. On the weekend I think we had 7 players playing who were here before the rebuild started, St Kilda only had 3.
I think they are still a fair way off but another good offseason and they could be pretty close, it also sounds like they are going to be very active.

Yes agreed. Ratts, to his credit, has made some tough calls. He’s replaced former AA contender Dylan Roberton, Jimmy Webster and an aging Shane Savage with the youth of Hunter Clark, Nick Coffield and Ben Paton across half back. It’s already paying dividends with the kids showing significant growth and bringing enthusiasm to the side. The easier option would have been to stick with the older and more reliable guys.

Conversely, we’re yet to make this transition and these tough calls. I’m still not sure if this is because we don’t rate our youngsters currently in the 2s as highly. Either some of the kids aren’t going as well as we would have hoped or we’re being too risk averse at selection. May be a bit of both.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Yes agreed. Ratts, to his credit, has made some tough calls. He’s replaced former AA contender Dylan Roberton, Jimmy Webster and an aging Shane Savage with the youth of Hunter Clark, Nick Coffield and Ben Paton across half back. It’s already paying dividends with the kids showing significant growth and bringing enthusiasm to the side. The easier option would have been to stick with the older and more reliable guys.

Conversely, we’re yet to make this transition and these tough calls. I’m still not sure if this is because we don’t rate our youngsters currently in the 2s as highly. Either some of the kids aren’t going as well as we would have hoped or we’re being too risk averse at selection. May be a bit of both.

They were lucky in that Clark and Coffield really started to come on at the end of last year and have just continued their progression where some ours were doing the opposite.

Steele has gone from handy to a gun and Jones, Howard and King have just filled in some of their holes.If they can find another really good midfielder to add to Steele with Hill and Billings on the wing they might actually be the real deal after 12 months ago looking like a basket case.

 

[BlueJet]

another 4 goals and althoguh i didnt watch the game clearly he was the difference in saints win. our recruiters were napping at the wheel or too busy fueding with one another.

The latter, I believe that it played a role in the breakdown in the relationship of SoS and Agresta.
It's an opportunity lost but there will be other low cost alternatives available, it's up to our recruitment team to identify them - hopefully for all of our sakes they're able to do so.

 

[F_therest]

Butler is doing far better than I expected but one has to look at -

The CFC had a heavy focus on smaller forwards with eyes trained on Papely and Martin. That was fair enough.
There may have been a Betts vs Butler 'feud' going on and some may have wanted Betts for one reason and Butler for another.
It's also been brought up here already - If one was Butler, what would have you done? Waited to see what came about post the Papley and Martin trades, or gone somewhere you were wanted immediately and were all but assured a game from round 1. Easy call for Butler.

We would have either had to have guaranteed him a home early in the piece or let him slide. We couldn't make that guarantee.

I reckon this is the more relevant point that 'Eddie vs Butler'.

Martin & Papley were our priorities which was definitely the right decision at the time and we probably let Butler's management know that...Butler could probably see it might be difficult to get to Carlton and there might be a squeeze for spots if we had landed both...whereas at Saints they basically had no small forwards outside Lonie and Kent who aren't that great.

Having said that, adding Eddie on top of that would have been an even greater deterrent for Butler to join us.

Although i love Eddie, i was always uneasy with us chasing him given his age...I felt his best was behind him and even if he did have a great year, it would only be for 1 year and our forward line mix would have to change again anyway...small chance of 2 if his form/body holds. This year he's had some good games but some games with no influence.

 

[F_therest]

Yes agreed. Ratts, to his credit, has made some tough calls. He’s replaced former AA contender Dylan Roberton, Jimmy Webster and an aging Shane Savage with the youth of Hunter Clark, Nick Coffield and Ben Paton across half back. It’s already paying dividends with the kids showing significant growth and bringing enthusiasm to the side. The easier option would have been to stick with the older and more reliable guys.

Conversely, we’re yet to make this transition and these tough calls. I’m still not sure if this is because we don’t rate our youngsters currently in the 2s as highly. Either some of the kids aren’t going as well as we would have hoped or we’re being too risk averse at selection. May be a bit of both.

Happy for Ratts and felt he'd make a good go at it when announced as Saints coach.

Saints playing good footy...quick, aggressive and high-scoring. They also have quite a young team at the moment as you alluded to with the likes of Clark/Coffield/Paton/Wilkie/Hind/King/Battle all coming in and having an influence along with their recruits. No longer are you seeing as much of Roberton/Webster/Savage/Lonie/Brown/Sinclair etc.

Let's not forget though that we are coming from far further back than the Saints IMO...we were a rabble at 1-11 and very defensive. We couldn't move the ball and score. Teague has had to teach that element of the game to us from scratch and has done well. We also have a number of old players who's best is behind them Betts/Murph/Simmo/Kreuz.

Saints on the other hand while poor, were no where near as bad as us. They already played quick aggressive footy, they often lost due to inefficiency inside F50 and poor goal kicking accuracy. So Ratts has just had to tweak things slightly, rather than the overhaul Teague has done on our style. Saints also don't have any really old players like us.

 

[F_therest]

To add to Butler, Jones was someone i really wanted.

It doesn't sound like we were ever really interested, but i reckon we could really use his grunt and speed through the middle. He also seems to propel the ball forward and likes to kick which would suit our game style perfectly.

Our issue is Cripps/Kennedy/Setterfield as a midfield trio is a little one paced and slow...we saw Hawks flick it around and beat us on the outside. Port did as well. As did Saints...it's a reoccurring issue.

Swapping Jones for Kennedy for example would smooth over that flaw of ours and give us some pace/burst and something different in there.

 

[CJMB]

Yes agreed. Ratts, to his credit, has made some tough calls. He’s replaced former AA contender Dylan Roberton, Jimmy Webster and an aging Shane Savage with the youth of Hunter Clark, Nick Coffield and Ben Paton across half back. It’s already paying dividends with the kids showing significant growth and bringing enthusiasm to the side. The easier option would have been to stick with the older and more reliable guys.

Conversely, we’re yet to make this transition and these tough calls. I’m still not sure if this is because we don’t rate our youngsters currently in the 2s as highly. Either some of the kids aren’t going as well as we would have hoped or we’re being too risk averse at selection. May be a bit of both.

Roberton played terribly in round 1 and was subsequently dropped. Savage played all through the end of last year and made his first appearance in their last game. Webster hasn't played since round 8, I think that's before Ratts took the helm?

But yeah, I'd love to see Marchbank, Fish, O'Brien, Dow, TDK, Honey, Philp & Stocker (depending on when he gets back to the hub) get some opportunities this year. Maybe Macreadie, Ramsay & Cottrell if they can really put up some great consecutive performances in the scratch matches/training.

 

[CJMB]

To add to Butler, Jones was someone i really wanted.

It doesn't sound like we were ever really interested, but i reckon we could really use his grunt and speed through the middle. He also seems to propel the ball forward and likes to kick which would suit our game style perfectly.

Our issue is Cripps/Kennedy/Setterfield as a midfield trio is a little one paced and slow...we saw Hawks flick it around and beat us on the outside. Port did as well. As did Saints...it's a reoccurring issue.

Swapping Jones for Kennedy for example would smooth over that flaw of ours and give us some pace/burst and something different in there.

He's not a great user of the footy but adds an element of hardness and run to the mix. Ideally we can bring in someone with the trifecta of foot skills, pace and an element of hardness, not a pure inside mid but a 'hybrid' as mentioned in the Cal Twomey podcast. The alternative might be adding 2 players that each have 2 of those 3 features as prominent qualities (or get the run off hbf, etc)