List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Arr0w]

Richards? Fumbled that many times when we spanked Dogs

Like the kid, has toe and mongrel, but still prefer LOB

 

[Jeremias]

What do you expect them to say?

If Eddie wants to show on field leadership, he should be hitting the fall of the ball at the marking contest, at speed, facing the goals, not constantly skunking out the back for a cheapie

I don’t think that has anything to do with leadership.

Eddie is not the player he once was, but he has still had an impact.

we might have beaten Melbourne and Port if he’d displayed some of his magic in a tight contest.

Please.

 

[Percy2257]

I don’t think that has anything to do with leadership.

Eddie is not the player he once was, but he has still had an impact.



Please.

Spare me and the rest of us your condesencion.

I don’t think that has anything to do with leadership.

Eddie is not the player he once was, but he has still had an impact.



Please.

Spare us all the condescension if you don’t mind!

 

[DangerousD]

If we are going to do the back and fourth regarding Butler, can we please get rid of the crap, oh Teague wanted Betts instead of him, or SOS wanted Butler and Liddle wanted this guy.

Since trade time last year, I’ve read, SOS didn’t want Butler, now it’s Teague didn’t want Butler but SOS did (wonder why it’s changed), now it’s Liddle who didn’t want Butler, it seems to change every few months.

You are guessing and you are guessing purely to create drama.

 

[Arr0w]

I don’t think that has anything to do with leadership.

Eddie is not the player he once was, but he has still had an impact.

It actually does.

If we wanted coaching leadership, they should never of put him on the senior list

He will still have some amazing moments, games, but it's a wasted opportunity

 

[DangerousD]

Which of our results this year would have been different had we brought him in?

Probably a lot of them, if you’re adding a player who is averaging 2 goals a game.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I'm probably on my own here but don't see any problem getting Bryce Gibbs back on a Betts type of deal for 2 seasons. He could replace Simpson and we can use his disposal off half-back and reckon he still has a year or two where he could spend some time in the middle.

Rather him than Newnes for example.

Gibbs had issues. He needed out. He isn't that good now. There's no point bringing him back. He was a whipping boy for his entire career and I'm just surprised people want a guy who will be 32 next year and playing lackluster football back. We would be going bavkwards

 

[Gethelred]

Yeah Butler was a huge mistake. Was it Liddle who wanted him?

You're a s**t stirrer!

 

[Gethelred]

Probably a lot of them, if you’re adding a player who is averaging 2 goals a game.

Not quite fair; it isn't really fair to assume that he'd be performing precisely the same with us that he is for the Saints. Still, I agree with the overall point.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

You're a sh*t stirrer!

 

[Jimmae]

His disposal is poor and his pace off the mark is not at an adequate standard to play small defender. He's also not great overhead, so someone like Elliot would stretch him.

In the midfield, his lack of pace is covered by the sheer amount of ground he has to cover, and by the fact that most of the contested mids he tags aren't lightning off the mark. This is not true of a forward line, in which small forwards tend towards being the most dynamic players on the ground in terms of agility and pace off the mark.

Ed's pace has long been underrated amongst our supporters, and it's because of how much territory he covers from midfield, and how much he doubles up to cover others in terms of chasing down.

When he played forward at the start of the 2019 season, he didn't look slow, and his kicking cleaned up more markedly than it has been over time. I honestly think Ed can play successfully at either end, but I would worry about his ability to mark the ball overhead consistently. As a small forward, that matters less, but it might prove a struggle as a small defender.

I think he could do the job in a pinch, and I think his kicking would be under less pressure with less miles in the legs.

 

[Gethelred]

Ed's pace has long been underrated amongst our supporters, and it's because of how much territory he covers from midfield, and how much he doubles up to cover others in terms of chasing down.

When he played forward at the start of the 2019 season, he didn't look slow, and his kicking cleaned up more markedly than it has been over time. I honestly think Ed can play successfully at either end, but I would worry about his ability to mark the ball overhead consistently. As a small forward, that matters less, but it might prove a struggle as a small defender.

I think he could do the job in a pinch, and I think his kicking would be under less pressure with less miles in the legs.

See, I look at Ed and then I look over at, in no particular order: Rankine, Butler, Jamie Cripps, Liam Ryan, Papley, Charlie Cameron, Jamie Elliot, Jayden Stephenson, Will Hoskin-Elliott. And I wonder, how is Ed going to go when each of these blokes has him either in the air, for raw pace, for agility, for smarts, or any combination thereof?

I don't think it'd work. I think he's a midfield tagger, a defensive forward pocket, or he's out. I'd also be content if he becomes a 15-20 possession player who just sits on an opposition key mover and handpasses the ball to players in better position and drags his opponent forward by kicking a goal a game, which is something he can do. But we need others to step up around him rather than for him to change his own game.

 

[Jimmae]

See, I look at Ed and then I look over at, in no particular order: Rankine, Butler, Jamie Cripps, Liam Ryan, Papley, Charlie Cameron, Jamie Elliot, Jayden Stephenson, Will Hoskin-Elliott. And I wonder, how is Ed going to go when each of these blokes has him either in the air, for raw pace, for agility, for smarts, or any combination thereof?

I don't think it'd work. I think he's a midfield tagger, a defensive forward pocket, or he's out. I'd also be content if he becomes a 15-20 possession player who just sits on an opposition key mover and handpasses the ball to players in better position and drags his opponent forward by kicking a goal a game, which is something he can do. But we need others to step up around him rather than for him to change his own game.

I mean some of those are medium forwards, but I would back him against everyone but Cameron, Butler and Rankine.

What Ed also has is strength to prevent his opponent getting an easy push-off most of time. My biggest concern is can he fill the gaps in the system and hold the marks required there. Probably not, but perhaps he could be coached.

The way I see it, this is purely hypothetical anyway, and SPS should be the one learning until we can find a more suited player. SPS' AFL position worries me deeply, and it's been doing so since before we drafted him. People will wave their hand and say "stick him in the guts" but he's not got the body or the burst for it.

Plenty of guile, great skills, but he's got to find something athletically in either of those directions or he will just get worn down.

 

[Gethelred]

I mean some of those are medium forwards, but I would back him against everyone but Cameron, Butler and Rankine.

What Ed also has is strength to prevent his opponent getting an easy push-off most of time. My biggest concern is can he fill the gaps in the system and hold the marks required there. Probably not, but perhaps he could be coached.

The way I see it, this is purely hypothetical anyway, and SPS should be the one learning until we can find a more suited player. SPS' AFL position worries me deeply, and it's been doing so since before we drafted him. People will wave their hand and say "stick him in the guts" but he's not got the body or the burst for it.

Plenty of guile, great skills, but he's got to find something athletically in either of those directions or he will just get worn down.

Ed's stronger than all of them, and he can outrun all of them, but I think that Stephenson'd get him on the lead, Cripps and Elliot would get him in the air, and Papley would get him for smarts. He could definitely be coached into the role, he's got AFL attributes and the knowledge that he could do it. I think a backline post would be a waste, though. He's too good a shot at goal on the run and from a set shot.

Basically, I'd be tempted to sit him on the running defenders who are unused to being tagged, similar to how Ratts sat Geary on Doc, and how pretty much since Doc's had to deal with tags. I'd want him to get a bit more of the ball than most defensive forwards, but forcing opposition players to rebound without their premier rebounding player hurts their offense almost as much as taking out a Neale or a Pendlebury does.

SPS is an inside midfielder. I do not know why the prolonged sojourn in defensive 50 is continuing. He is both a first receiver and a ball winner in close; he needs someone to light a rocket under him, and to stop ballwatching in a stoppage; he could also do with getting a personal tacking coach and learning a bit of aggression. He's a golden retriever, when we need a rottweiler.

 

[Jeremias]

Spare us all the condescension if you don’t mind!

Not being condescending at all, just think it is absurd to suggest we'd be in a significantly different position to where we're at right now, had we brought in Butler.

It actually does.

If we wanted coaching leadership, they should never of put him on the senior list

He will still have some amazing moments, games, but it's a wasted opportunity

Can't believe people think he shouldn't be on the senior list.

Nowhere near the player he was, yet has shown he is still very capable at the level.

One list spot, one future fourth round pick, with the Crows paying a portion of his salary.

His return to the club was an absolute no-brainer, it's just a shame that the fans haven't been able to enjoy it.

Probably a lot of them, if you’re adding a player who is averaging 2 goals a game.

It's a bit simplistic though to suggest he'd be scoring that heavily at Carlton though, isn't it?

Different coaches, different players, different styles of play...

I haven't come out of one game this year thinking we lost because we didn't have Butler. I'd be surprised if anyone genuinely had.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Let's get this straight.

In order of preference, the players we should've targeted were:

1) martin
2) butler
3) betts

If you dispute that, you have your head in the sand. Thankfully dont think anyone here has.

So did we make a mistake by going for betts instead of butler?

If betts was the tipping point of getting martin? We made the right choice.

If we couldve gotten martin regardless? Then definitely shouldve gone for butler.

A forwardline of:

Martin Charlie Cuningham
Chubbs McKay Butler

thats complete...and we have the draft assets to go for a kelly type in 2020

 

[Arr0w]

Can't believe people think he shouldn't be on the senior list.

Nowhere near the player he was, yet has shown he is still very capable at the level.

One list spot, one future fourth round pick, with the Crows paying a portion of his salary.

His return to the club was an absolute no-brainer, it's just a shame that the fans haven't been able to enjoy it.

J, let's put the emotions to one side, just pure list management

Butler was also obtained for a 4th rounder, whether he wanted in on not, is another matter

We had/have enough senior players, given our situation, even a 4th rounder could have been spent better

 

[Gethelred]

J, let's put the emotions to one side, just pure list management

Butler was also obtained for a 4th rounder, whether he wanted in on not, is another matter

We had/have enough senior players, given our situation, even a 4th rounder could have been spent better

Question becomes, though, would he have cost a 4th rounder if we didn't bow out of the race for him and it was a genuine bidding war for his services?

 

[Arr0w]

Question becomes, though, would he have cost a 4th rounder if we didn't bow out of the race for him and it was a genuine bidding war for his services?

Maybe, maybe not. But even if we had to give up a mid 3rd rounder, his output, age and attributes warranted that value

This is not about Buttler, other options would have been better than an aging small forward

If we were a flag contender, then I would have understood the trade, but given our situation, it made little sense to the on field

 

[Gethelred]

Maybe, maybe not. But even if we had to give up a mid 3rd rounder, his output, age and attributes warranted that value

This is not about Buttler, other options would have been better than an aging small forward

If we were a flag contender, then I would have understood the trade, but given our situation, it made little sense to the on field

My opinion on Butler is plain: I think he's played good footy to this point, and in terms of what he could provide onfield would have been better than what Betts would, but I also think that Butler will regress because he's a form player.

I think that Richmond - given a bidding war - would've tried to get a second for him, and it's only the fact that there was a sole suitor that he was that cheap.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Question becomes, though, would he have cost a 4th rounder if we didn't bow out of the race for him and it was a genuine bidding war for his services?

Yes.

The trade was always going to be done for a pick in the 50's. Richmond were always going to facilitate the trade because they didn't see him in their best 22 and had to relieve some cap space.

It was just a matter of who was going to cough up that pick by the way of his preferred club.

Just as an FYI, we've had 10-12 list changes per year over the last 5 years. There's every chance he may not have wanted to come to us because he thought he may have been treated as the next player to go through the revolving door, especially if he was under the impression that we were going to go hard for Papley again in 2020.

If I was in his situation, I would have done exactly the same thing.

St Kilda were genuinely offering a chance for him to revive his career. It seriously felt like we were offering him an opportunity to keep Papley's seat warm until he arrived.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes.

The trade was always going to be done for a pick in the 50's. Richmond were always going to facilitate the trade because they didn't see him in their best 22 and had to relieve some cap space.

It was just a matter of who was going to cough up that pick by the way of his preferred club.

You're very sure about that. Do you have a basis for why you're so certain?

Just as an FYI, we've had 10-12 list changes per year over the last 5 years. There's every chance he may not have wanted to come to us because he thought he may have been treated as the next player to go through the revolving door, especially if he was under the impression that we were going to go hard for Papley again in 2020.

If I was in his situation, I would have done exactly the same thing.

St Kilda were genuinely offering a chance for him to revive his career. It seriously felt like we were offering him an opportunity to keep Papley's seat warm until he arrived.

Hmmmm...

That's food for thought. I definitely hadn't considered that.

Do I remember correctly though that Butler's manager had a crack at us for inconsistent messaging?

 

[Arr0w]

My opinion on Butler is plain: I think he's played good footy to this point, and in terms of what he could provide onfield would have been better than what Betts would, but I also think that Butler will regress because he's a form player.

I think that Richmond - given a bidding war - would've tried to get a second for him, and it's only the fact that there was a sole suitor that he was that cheap.

I too think he may regress, but at his age, he has the opportunity to find consistency, Betts will definitely regress

I dont agree with a possible bidding war on picks, but more an increase in salary, which wouldn't of been an issue.

Use Darcy Cameron as an example, we too were interested, yet it was more about the salary that the Pies offered

The deal was still done, exchanging 4th round picks

 

[Eiffel 65]

You're very sure about that. Do you have a basis for why you're so certain?


Hmmmm...

That's food for thought. I definitely hadn't considered that.

Do I remember correctly though that Butler's manager had a crack at us for inconsistent messaging?

History says clubs will generally facilitate trades in the best interest of players they don't see as a part of their starting 22.

Just take a look at the 2019 trade period with the likes of Dougal Howard, Sam Frost, and Hugh Greenwood being traded for back ended picks.

There was definitely a mixed narrative from our end, especially with Brandon Ellis. We'll never know exactly what was happening behind the scenes, but mainstream media was portraying indecision from our end.

 

[Stamos]

J, let's put the emotions to one side, just pure list management

Butler was also obtained for a 4th rounder, whether he wanted in on not, is another matter

We had/have enough senior players, given our situation, even a 4th rounder could have been spent better

3rd rounder