List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Arr0w]

He's not a great user of the footy but adds an element of hardness and run to the mix. Ideally we can bring in someone with the trifecta of foot skills, pace and an element of hardness, not a pure inside mid but a 'hybrid' as mentioned in the Cal Twomey podcast. The alternative might be adding 2 players that each have 2 of those 3 features as prominent qualities (or get the run off hbf, etc)

For me, a Berry type would be perfect for us at the moment

 

[CJMB]

For me, a Berry type would be perfect for us at the moment

I liked the Hewett suggestion too.

Kind of feels like the hardest part now is finding the players that fit the profile we want (be it superstar or young B/C grader with potential to improve) who are:

1. willing to leave
2. willing to come to us
3. have clubs and/or contract status that are willing to deal with us reasonably (cost/value, etc)

 

[Jimmae]

Ed's stronger than all of them, and he can outrun all of them, but I think that Stephenson'd get him on the lead, Cripps and Elliot would get him in the air, and Papley would get him for smarts. He could definitely be coached into the role, he's got AFL attributes and the knowledge that he could do it. I think a backline post would be a waste, though. He's too good a shot at goal on the run and from a set shot.

Basically, I'd be tempted to sit him on the running defenders who are unused to being tagged, similar to how Ratts sat Geary on Doc, and how pretty much since Doc's had to deal with tags. I'd want him to get a bit more of the ball than most defensive forwards, but forcing opposition players to rebound without their premier rebounding player hurts their offense almost as much as taking out a Neale or a Pendlebury does.

SPS is an inside midfielder. I do not know why the prolonged sojourn in defensive 50 is continuing. He is both a first receiver and a ball winner in close; he needs someone to light a rocket under him, and to stop ballwatching in a stoppage; he could also do with getting a personal tacking coach and learning a bit of aggression. He's a golden retriever, when we need a rottweiler.

You're still underestimating Ed there. He's constantly on the move when in the midfield, and that invariably hurts your repeat sprint efforts across the game. Given the stop-start style of playing at each end, his individual sprint efforts go up, and we saw that last year.

But with SPS, the issue is not his tackling and aggression: the issue is he is 6' and 78 kgs. He runs into the same issues as Murphy, the same issues as Fisher, Walsh, Gibbons and so on, in that he will get physically bullied out of a lot of contests.

He either needs to add strength or add speed. Strength seems more likely given his history of hamstring issues and how those appear to have impacted his burst compared to his junior days.

 

[CJMB]

You're still underestimating Ed there. He's constantly on the move when in the midfield, and that invariably hurts your repeat sprint efforts across the game. Given the stop-start style of playing at each end, his individual sprint efforts go up, and we saw that last year.

But with SPS, the issue is not his tackling and aggression: the issue is he is 6' and 78 kgs. He runs into the same issues as Murphy, the same issues as Fisher, Walsh, Gibbons and so on, in that he will get physically bullied out of a lot of contests.

He either needs to add strength or add speed. Strength seems more likely given his history of hamstring issues and how those appear to have impacted his burst compared to his junior days.

What's your ideal position/role for SPS, Jim?

 

[Jimmae]

What's your ideal position/role for SPS, Jim?

General defender at the moment, needs to learn from Simmo and see if he can manage that role going into future seasons. If his hamstring issues clear up and his burst returns, you can drop him on the wing with bursts in the middle. If he can build up his body, you can look at him around the stoppage, but that's a big if.

Here's some footage so you can grasp an idea of what he seems to have lost (starting in his draft year), at least any consistency in it:

Sam Petrevski-Seton highlights | Pick 6

Watch number six pick Sam Petrevski-Seton's highlights.

www.carltonfc.com.au

Same thing happened to Rankine, but he's obviously recaptured what he'd lost after overdoing it trying to build up his body. In Rankine's case, he was probably managing to overeat while over-training (so literally stress eating) without causing a bunch of soft-tissue injuries. SPS doesn't seem to have been so lucky.

 

[new_blue]

I reckon this is the more relevant point that 'Eddie vs Butler'.

Martin & Papley were our priorities which was definitely the right decision at the time and we probably let Butler's management know that...Butler could probably see it might be difficult to get to Carlton and there might be a squeeze for spots if we had landed both...whereas at Saints they basically had no small forwards outside Lonie and Kent who aren't that great.

Having said that, adding Eddie on top of that would have been an even greater deterrent for Butler to join us.

Although i love Eddie, i was always uneasy with us chasing him given his age...I felt his best was behind him and even if he did have a great year, it would only be for 1 year and our forward line mix would have to change again anyway...small chance of 2 if his form/body holds. This year he's had some good games but some games with no influence.

I don’t think Butler chose St K over us and I don’t feel it was a monetary issue either.

Our clear priority was Papley and I get the sense that we were extremely confident that we’d be able to land him. Therefore Butler wasn’t a need for us so weren’t able to give him the commitment he needed...so he sought other options.

Had we known that we wouldn’t get Papley, we may have approached this situation differently. I think we erred in the regard. The way I see it...we could have had butler instead of Ramsay.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CJMB]

General defender at the moment, needs to learn from Simmo and see if he can manage that role going into future seasons. If his hamstring issues clear up and his burst returns, you can drop him on the wing with bursts in the middle. If he can build up his body, you can look at him around the stoppage, but that's a big if.

Here's some footage so you can grasp an idea of what he seems to have lost (starting in his draft year), at least any consistency in it:

Sam Petrevski-Seton highlights | Pick 6

Watch number six pick Sam Petrevski-Seton's highlights.

www.carltonfc.com.au

Same thing happened to Rankine, but he's obviously recaptured what he'd lost after overdoing it trying to build up his body. In Rankine's case, he was probably managing to overeat while over-training (so literally stress eating) without causing a bunch of soft-tissue injuries. SPS doesn't seem to have been so lucky.

General defender at the moment, needs to learn from Simmo and see if he can manage that role going into future seasons. If his hamstring issues clear up and his burst returns, you can drop him on the wing with bursts in the middle. If he can build up his body, you can look at him around the stoppage, but that's a big if.

Here's some footage so you can grasp an idea of what he seems to have lost (starting in his draft year), at least any consistency in it:

Sam Petrevski-Seton highlights | Pick 6

Watch number six pick Sam Petrevski-Seton's highlights.

www.carltonfc.com.au

Same thing happened to Rankine, but he's obviously recaptured what he'd lost after overdoing it trying to build up his body. In Rankine's case, he was probably managing to overeat while over-training (so literally stress eating) without causing a bunch of soft-tissue injuries. SPS doesn't seem to have been so lucky.

Certainly looked a little more sprightly in that first video. Watching the dogs clip, and then looking at the heat map for that game, it appears like he was really playing out of the middle and venturing onto the left wing, erring more on the defensive side of the ground and only having the 3 possessions inside 50.

I just love seeing him involved, particularly when there's some fast moving options around for a short pass/handball out of congestion (Dow's burst stood out a few times in the dogs clip) or him delivering the ball into dangerous areas inside/around the 50.

 

[Jimmae]

Certainly looked a little more sprightly in that first video. Watching the dogs clip, and then looking at the heat map for that game, it appears like he was really playing out of the middle and venturing onto the left wing, erring more on the defensive side of the ground and only having the 3 possessions inside 50.

I just love seeing him involved, particularly when there's some fast moving options around for a short pass/handball out of congestion (Dow's burst stood out a few times in the dogs clip) or him delivering the ball into dangerous areas inside/around the 50.

The Simmo role suits him in that sense, without him getting rollicked at the stoppage by bigger bodies. I think he can compete against some teams' stoppage looks, but not all, and not consistently.

He was drafted at the end of 2016, so that first video is him as an bottom-age player at the U18 Champs. You can see the acceleration he had, and how much it added to his game, and then you can see the following year, after repeated hamstring injuries, how it basically vanished. He probably would have gone top 3 if it wasn't a concern, though we're talking about a draft where the Dons thought McGrath was the best midfield prospect and GWS picked Taranto over McCluggage...

 

[Gethelred]

Certainly looked a little more sprightly in that first video. Watching the dogs clip, and then looking at the heat map for that game, it appears like he was really playing out of the middle and venturing onto the left wing, erring more on the defensive side of the ground and only having the 3 possessions inside 50.

I just love seeing him involved, particularly when there's some fast moving options around for a short pass/handball out of congestion (Dow's burst stood out a few times in the dogs clip) or him delivering the ball into dangerous areas inside/around the 50.

I'd be interested to see a combined heat map and/or a distance tally for him over time, see if he's actually building a tank or he's still not really covering much ground.

 

[Jeremias]

That is the most ridiculous comment. We had a need and still do. Yet we didn't seem to have interest or had conflicted reports (and interviews) about our interest in Butler. Who would be the best small forward on our list.

But yeah why do we need that, we are obviously unbeaten this season. Why improve the list.

You're right. We had a need and we arguably still do, though let's not rewrite history to suggest we didn't at least try to address that.

We were heavily invested in bringing the best small forward in the league and we very nearly did it.
We brought Eddie back to the club, who whilst clearly is not the player he once was, is still very capable of producing the brilliant.
We brought in Honey and Phillips who are young kids with plenty of talent.

We clearly had a level of interest in Butler but he chose St Kilda which I think is something that so many people are choosing to ignore. He could have nominated Carlton. He didn't.

He moved on and we moved on and rightly so. I only wish our supporters would now move on; he's a good footballer but we have missed and will miss plenty of better footballers.

We have also brought in better footballers than him and we are in a position to continue doing so at the end of this season and beyond.

As for your final sentence there, not sure there is a need for that. Clearly nobody is suggesting anything of the sort.

It’s a simple way of looking at it, there is also nothing to say his output wouldn’t be higher at the Blues, We don’t know.
I haven’t come out of any game thinking, oh Butler would have been the difference, I’ve come out of quite a few frustrated at the lack of tackling, forward pressure and our forward lines lack of crumbers.

I can easily see why we didn’t trade him in, I think we could have easily got him if we wanted, I don’t think we did. But I think to suggest at the end of the season anyone could say that a 38 (19 game season) goal a year small forward wouldn’t have made any difference to a side who’s leading goal kicker is tracking to end up on 26.

Let that sink in, our leading goal kicker is tracking to finish on 26 goals, Butler is tracking to finish on 38, I’m not sure how that doesn’t equate to more wins.

My read on the situation is that we wanted him but on our terms which I think is fair enough. He clearly wasn't our top priority either, which again I think is fair enough when we were very clearly heavily involved in talks for Papley and Martin.

Let me be clear, I am not hating on Butler or understating his performances to date, but hoping to add a bit of context to the situation. I think he would have made a difference with us, I was supportive of the club pursuing him, but the point I'm making is that we are travelling just fine without him.

Could things be better? Sure. But some are carrying on as though missing out on him was catastrophic when clearly that is just not the case.

He's not even our biggest miss of the trade period, and I don't think we'd even be talking about him had we managed to bring Papley to the club.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Happy for Ratts and felt he'd make a good go at it when announced as Saints coach.

Saints playing good footy...quick, aggressive and high-scoring. They also have quite a young team at the moment as you alluded to with the likes of Clark/Coffield/Paton/Wilkie/Hind/King/Battle all coming in and having an influence along with their recruits. No longer are you seeing as much of Roberton/Webster/Savage/Lonie/Brown/Sinclair etc.

Let's not forget though that we are coming from far further back than the Saints IMO...we were a rabble at 1-11 and very defensive. We couldn't move the ball and score. Teague has had to teach that element of the game to us from scratch and has done well. We also have a number of old players who's best is behind them Betts/Murph/Simmo/Kreuz.

Saints on the other hand while poor, were no where near as bad as us. They already played quick aggressive footy, they often lost due to inefficiency inside F50 and poor goal kicking accuracy. So Ratts has just had to tweak things slightly, rather than the overhaul Teague has done on our style. Saints also don't have any really old players like us.

We averaged 2 points less a game then them last year and had a better %. They were coming from further back imo when you consider the talent on the two lists. They still have a fair way to go to be a serious contender imo but an offseason like they had last year has really turned things on its head. If they could get a Caldwell and Williams type onto their list then they may be a real show.

There are a hundred ways to go about a rebuild and they pretty much struck out from 2012-14 but over the last 3-4 years they have consistently made several good decisions on players. All the planning in the world means absolutely zero, it all comes down to execution.

 

[Tjblues]

Priority 1: Speed and skill
Priority 2: Skill
Priority 3: Speed

We are in dire need of those major point of difference players. And maybe Liddle is right when he says the answers might be under our nose. But I don’t know that we can hang our hat on maybes.

Maybe Dow is the player that will burst away from the stoppage and leave opponents for dead. Or Philp, or even Ramsay

Maybe O’Brien is the player that will dazzle with his foot skills, and have our forwards salivating at the prospect of leading at him. Or Honey.

But just because we may have players on our list who could be those points of difference, doesn’t mean we shouldnt chase top end talent come seasons end. We’re at an interesting point of our list build, and one where it all comes together quickly or stagnates frustratingly.

Big job for those involved

 

[FairKouta]

Heard teaguey just maybe hint ben silvagni may get a game later in the year and he has improved a lot this year. To he fair did also say he was a fair way behind. Luke power is a big in. Just need a better midfield coach And a josh kelly

 

[ABigOlDoofus]

Heard teaguey just maybe hint ben silvagni may get a game later in the year and he has improved a lot this year. To he fair did also say he was a fair way behind. Luke power is a big in. Just need a better midfield coach [emoji2363] And a josh kelly

That's great to hear, even if he develops into a serviceable KPD that'll be massive for our depth.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FairKouta]

I watched papley yesterday yes he is a good goal kicker but I’m not sure he can win us games. Don’t overpay. Butler yes good this year might just be a good patch although will admit his finishing has improved dramatically

 

[Opine]

I watched papley yesterday yes he is a good goal kicker but I’m not sure he can win us games. Don’t overpay. Butler yes good this year might just be a good patch although will admit his finishing has improved dramatically

Our previous captain/coach and our, supposed, previously preferred CEO have arguably contributed to the improvement in the player you mentioned/highlighted above. Well done to both of those individuals. I'd certainly like for the latter to move over to us as our new CEO.

 

[katmanblue]

FFS Bulter Bulter Butler.

It's done. Move on.

Getting to the stage where it's sounding like impetuous whining.



On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FairKouta]

Our previous captain/coach and our, supposed, previously preferred CEO have arguably contributed to the improvement in the player you mentioned/highlighted above. Well done to both of those individuals. I'd certainly like for the latter to move over to us as our new CEO.

Yup I remember when ratts was our coach we won a lot of games with our 3 amigos getting goal side

 

[DangerousD]

When are the teams announced?

 

[Opine]

FFS Bulter Bulter Butler.

It's done. Move on.

Getting to the stage where it's sounding like impetuous whining.



On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

We are recognising the superb development work being done over at the Saints. That is not whining. Well done Saints.

 

[katmanblue]

Yup I remember when ratts was our coach we won a lot of games with our 3 amigos getting goal side [emoji17]

Setanta and his helpers

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Juice030103]

We have drafted 11 players in the first round from 2015-19.

2015
Weitering
McKay
Curnow
Cunners

2016
SPS

2017
Dow
LOB

2018
Walsh
Stocker

2019
Kemp
Philp

Everyone hear except curnow is under 23. That is generally the year you start to really hit their straps. This doesnt include blokes like setters who we got from other clubs. Yet we are so quick to ride off players. The talent is there. Dont need much more in the side. Have faith

 

[F_therest]

I watched papley yesterday yes he is a good goal kicker but I’m not sure he can win us games. Don’t overpay. Butler yes good this year might just be a good patch although will admit his finishing has improved dramatically

Papley has shown he can be a match winner when he's on and at least a decent contributor when he's only going OK.

Yesterday's Sydney v Collingwood game was a dour, slow moving, error-riddled slug fest. Not easy for the forwards...there was only 1 multiple goal kicker in the entire match. Papley has already won a number of games for Sydney this year off his own boot and will excel with good, quick delivery into the F50.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

FFS Bulter Bulter Butler.

It's done. Move on.

Getting to the stage where it's sounding like impetuous whining.



On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I wouldn't get too excited over Butler just yet. I reckon these small forward types often have a 'dead-cat bounce' for a little while at a new club and then eventually peter out - Jacob Towsend, Paul Medhurst,......... Les Bamblett, Peter Bedford

 

[F_therest]

FFS Bulter Bulter Butler.

It's done. Move on.

Getting to the stage where it's sounding like impetuous whining.



On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

It's a very appropriate topic of conversation given we had interest at stages last year and this is a list management thread. Also the kind of player we could do with right now.