List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[DangerousD]

Let's just say we take on one of Wines or Crouch and get Papley.
Next year starts us off with every player good to go (Right. Good luck with that, but let's see how it goes)
Let's retire Simpson, Murphy, Betts and Kreuzer and see what we end up with:

Docherty Jones Plowman
SPS Weitering Williamson

Pittonet Cripps ECurnow
Fisher Crouch/Wines Walsh

Cuningham CCurnow Martin
Papley McKay McGovern

IC: JSilvagni Dow Stocker Philp - I like the 'possibility' of this interchange. Adds speed, strength, smarts, grunt etc.

Other than Jones & ECurnow, we have the foundation of a squad that can spend plenty of time playing together.

We then have young players: De Koning Kemp Setterfield and an older player in Gibbons who we won't let go.
Other young players, even at this early stage are either contracted or will just remain: Ramsay Honey

Everyone else may be on thin ice including Marchbank O'Brien who may be looked at being traded.
What happens thereafter will be interesting and especially so, should lists be trimmed.

I would love a little disclaimer on all posts that include Wines vs Crouch, that made it clear, if we indeed got Crouch, we would also have an extra 1st round pick to take to the draft, where if we get Wines, we don’t. So whilst Crouch might not be everyone’s cup of tea, or the superstar many are craving, any comparison with another player, we need to trade for, should be Crouch and a 1st rounder or (insert players name).

Our squad looks so much stronger with the two you have entered above, not sure if it’s that much better with Wines over Crouch.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Issue is that we aren't and shouldn't be in clean out mode. We should be at list strength.and depth.
If we do indeed clean out - then we have failed to either develop or draft/trade over the past 3 years.
I have my thoughts but either way, we have failed the 'reset' if we go down the clean out path come years end and that is a serious concern for our club.

100% and if we are in cleanout and reset mode I wouldnt blame Cripps for wanting out... and we may as well try and cash in on him whilst his value is highest..

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Without going into any great detail, I think the talent acquired on our list, although yet unproven, is likely going to be good enough to drive us up the ladder. A lot of them just need more time to develop. A few high picks will end up busts but that’s the case for all clubs - it’s pretty much impossible to hit on every pick. We just need enough of them to be good enough.

However, the point I really want to make, which is easily overlooked, is whether we’re recruiting guys that can change the culture of the club. I don’t yet have a view on this because it takes time to see what these youngsters become. Ultimately, our success as a club going forward is going to come down to this. I understand that culture is also built from the footy department and the coaching team, but ultimately the players are the ones that have to go out there and get the job done every week.

Hodge, Mitchell, Buddy, Roughy, Lewis etc are all great players but also have the hard edge to them. They took a losing hawthorn culture that had festered for 10 years and turned it into a brutal club. Ditto the Cats with Chapman, Bartel, Johnson, Enright, Scarlett etc. Ditto Richmond with Cotchin, Reiwoldt, Martin, Rance etc.

I’d say Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuz were all very talented players from pretty much day one. They are all fairly well acclaimed over their careers. They aren’t the absolute best of the best, but they were still good picks. However, they weren’t able to turn around our losing culture. I’m not trying to have a go at them for that because the coaching (mainly Mick), the recruiting (2009-2014 drafts) and the senior players when they started really hindered their ability to change the culture.

The question is can Weiters, H, Charlie, JSOS, SPS, Fish, Willo, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh, Stocker, Kemp, Philp etc change the culture? They’ll be led by Crippa and Doc, but ultimately they’ll also have to drive the standards. It doesn’t matter whether Murph, Simmo, Ed, Cas etc buy in because they’ll be all gone soon. They’ll need support from the coaches and footy dept but for me this is the key issue. We can put together a talented list but it won’t mean much unless we learn to be a ruthless club. I cross my fingers and hope.

I suspect this has far more to do with off field culture than it does on field. Hawthorn had Jeff Kennett who was ruthless in his acceptance of failure, this was supported by successful premiership players in Jason Dunstall and a coach that is as ruthless as he is a tactical genius. Geelong are led by Frank Costa who is a hard nosed business man who has battled against shady operators to dominate the fruit and veg space, had Neil Blame whos records speaks for itself and a former premiership captain as its coach in Mark Thompson.. Successful people breed a successful culture.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

We should be getting into the ear of Zac Williams and Brad Crouch now. Personally, I’d prefer Williams but would take either at the right price. I think Williams will be cheaper and I really rate his combination of toughness and speed. We need more of both. Either way, I think we need to finally snag a free agent.

As we all know, free agency has helped the powerful clubs at the top of the ladder and hurt the lesser clubs. We’ve really got nothing out of it since it’s inception. Too many times have a Hawthorn or Richmond snagged an A grader for nothing. We’ve got the money in the cap but we need to back that up with a strong season this year so we can sell future success. It will help if we see significant strides from our youngsters so we can sell these guys on a strong team going forward. If we can snag one of these two, front load the contract while we still have space in the cap.

Williams cheaper than Crouch... surely not.

 

[SurreyBlue]

I suspect this has far more to do with off field culture than it does on field. Hawthorn had Jeff Kennett who was ruthless in his acceptance of failure, this was supported by successful premiership players in Jason Dunstall and a coach that is as ruthless as he is a tactical genius. Geelong are led by Frank Costa who is a hard nosed business man who has battled against shady operators to dominate the fruit and veg space, had Neil Blame whos records speaks for itself and a former premiership captain as its coach in Mark Thompson.. Successful people breed a successful culture.

Bingo.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I would love a little disclaimer on all posts that include Wines vs Crouch, that made it clear, if we indeed got Crouch, we would also have an extra 1st round pick to take to the draft, where if we get Wines, we don’t. So whilst Crouch might not be everyone’s cup of tea, or the superstar many are craving, any comparison with another player, we need to trade for, should be Crouch and a 1st rounder or (insert players name).

Our squad looks so much stronger with the two you have entered above, not sure if it’s that much better with Wines over Crouch.

Interesting point - Wines v Crouch & Hateley / Petruccelle makes the equation far more interesting..

 

[blue healer]

I understand why you wouldn't be.

Just two? Not Kreuzer or Marchbank? Debatable I guess and then Dow? Newman maybe....maybe?
Whichever way though, we have many top 30 players not available, which often doesn't augur well for the season ahead.

I don't know where we'll finish other than knowing that the more injuries we have, the harder it will be....unfortuantely.

Serious question I'm really interested to know who you think is not available and in our top 30, Harks.

I can only see Kreuz, JSOS, Marchbank, Fisher, Curnow and Newman (now).

Granted JSOS and Fisher would have been very handy, but we've known about Charlie all year, I think Marchbank is a better player because he's injured (still a fair bit to prove for mine) and while I love Kreuz I'm not sure he'd have given us any more than Pittonet.

Whilst Lang looks obvious who do you think would make way if all those players were available?

Remember we overlooked (for whatever reason) Kennedy, Stocker, TDK, LOB and Williamson just off the top of my head.

The question that raises for me, and I guess only time will tell, is really just how good is our top 30. I would agree that it's better than it was 3 years ago but that's a pretty low bar.

 

[gbatman]

Question we need to be asking, what centermen can we get who are tougher and better than Murphy and Curnow. Can we get Papley still? Are there any young wingmen available?

Maybe someone steps up but at this stage that's what we need. I don't think we are many players away from being a pretty good side.

 

[Juice030103]

The big bodied midfielder that we are looking for is already on the list and his name is Brodie Kemp

 

[BlueBlood15]

I suspect this has far more to do with off field culture than it does on field. Hawthorn had Jeff Kennett who was ruthless in his acceptance of failure, this was supported by successful premiership players in Jason Dunstall and a coach that is as ruthless as he is a tactical genius. Geelong are led by Frank Costa who is a hard nosed business man who has battled against shady operators to dominate the fruit and veg space, had Neil Blame whos records speaks for itself and a former premiership captain as its coach in Mark Thompson.. Successful people breed a successful culture.

Yeah I agree with what you say re the importance of off field culture. The reality is you need both on field and off field leadership if you’re going to be a really successful club. Leadership generally comes from the top down. However, great off field leadership won’t amount to much if the team isn’t willing to do everything in their power to win each week. It’s about getting everyone in the club from the president down on the exact same page re what is expected of each stakeholder in the club (from president to the last player on the list).

 

[blue healer]

The big bodied midfielder that we are looking for is already on the list and his name is Brodie Kemp

With respect, two years ago that guy was Kennedy. I'd prefer to wait and see what Kemp is like (TBF I've seen none of his work so wouldn't know) before saying that.

 

[Juice030103]

With respect, two years ago that guy was Kennedy. I'd prefer to wait and see what Kemp is like (TBF I've seen none of his work so wouldn't know) before saying that.

fair enough but Kemp is 2 inches taller and more athletic so there is more to be excited about with him

 

[HARKER]

Serious question I'm really interested to know who you think is not available and in our top 30, Harks.

I can only see Kreuz, JSOS, Marchbank, Fisher, Curnow and Newman (now).

Granted JSOS and Fisher would have been very handy, but we've known about Charlie all year, I think Marchbank is a better player because he's injured (still a fair bit to prove for mine) and while I love Kreuz I'm not sure he'd have given us any more than Pittonet.

Whilst Lang looks obvious who do you think would make way if all those players were available?

Remember we overlooked (for whatever reason) Kennedy, Stocker, TDK, LOB and Williamson just off the top of my head.

The question that raises for me, and I guess only time will tell, is really just how good is our top 30. I would agree that it's better than it was 3 years ago but that's a pretty low bar.

They weren't my words. They were the clubs, well before round 1 that said that 30 players are in the mix for the start of the season.
It's not hard to find those players when that was brought up.

Take into account the 22 players that played on the weekend and add - Kreuzer, Marchbank, Fisher, Williamson, Dow, Stocker, O'Brien, JSilvagni & Kennedy.
If you want to could add De Koning & Philp. There were 30 players there.

You know what I think and I've seen this so many time before: Once we do start winning.....and we will start winning....everyone is going to look that little bit better than they currently do. You watch.

 

[blue healer]

fair enough but Kemp is 2 inches taller and more athletic so there is more to be excited about with him

Yeah sorry as I said I've seen nothing of him.

Probably the cynic in me... to paraphrase the great Johnny Cash "I've seen em come and go and I've seen em fail....". Don't mind me.

 

[blue healer]

They weren't my words. They were the clubs, well before round 1 that said that 30 players are in the mix for the start of the season.
It's not hard to find those players when that was brought up.

Take into account the 22 players that played on the weekend and add - Kreuzer, Marchbank, Fisher, Williamson, Dow, Stocker, O'Brien, JSilvagni & Kennedy.
If you want to could add De Koning & Philp. There were 30 players there.

You know what I think and I've seen this so many time before: Once we do start winning.....and we will start winning....everyone is going to look that little bit better than they currently do. You watch.

Fair enough and I hope you're right but at least half of those players actually were available is all I'm saying so, perhaps Lang aside, I can only assume that was our best available 22. I'm a bit worried.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Yeah sorry as I said I've seen nothing of him.

Probably the cynic in me... to paraphrase the great Johnny Cash "I've seen em come and go and I've seen em fail....". Don't mind me.

It is a fair point. We haven’t seen Brodie play senior footy yet (or any footy for 12 months) so it’s easy to build him up. However, it is hard to deny the physical tools he’s got: height and strength. Pretty sure his skills are touted to be good too. Apparently he’s got a bit of mongrel about him which is exactly what we’ve been crying out for. I’m very happy to hear that he’s been attacking his rehab so far. It’s all ticks from me but let’s remember he’ll take a few years to mature into the best version of himself - that’s pretty much always the case with 18 year olds coming in.

 

[blue healer]

They weren't my words. They were the clubs, well before round 1 that said that 30 players are in the mix for the start of the season.
It's not hard to find those players when that was brought up.

Take into account the 22 players that played on the weekend and add - Kreuzer, Marchbank, Fisher, Williamson, Dow, Stocker, O'Brien, JSilvagni & Kennedy.
If you want to could add De Koning & Philp. There were 30 players there.

You know what I think and I've seen this so many time before: Once we do start winning.....and we will start winning....everyone is going to look that little bit better than they currently do. You watch.

Just once more to the well. I reckon I've heard this before. Some old coach we had told us once that he couldn't see how we'd get beaten. Think that may have been another wooden spoon year.

 

[La Dispute]

At least with Kemp he isn't slight (Dow, Setterfield are) or slow (Kennedy, Setterfield are), so at least from a physical perspective he is going to be able to hold his own in the middle. I'm much more interested to see if his has the base-level nous at the stoppages.

I'm cautious to pump him up too much before he has played a game though. I loved the selection, and the patience we've got in bringing him into the team. I partly suspect some teams may have been happy to pass him over because he wouldn't feature this year, which was the same reason someone like Ryan Burton was overlooked, so that was nice.

The bonus of course is pending some good form we should see Philp feature in some games this year. Not like-for-like or anything, but showed some conviction in the pre-season, and there is certainly some opportunity for another small-medium forward if he's good enough.

 

[BlueJet]

Interesting point - Wines v Crouch & Hateley / Petruccelle makes the equation far more interesting..

Or better yet:

Wines & Crouch vs Papley & Crouch

 

[La Dispute]

Or better yet:

Wines & Crouch vs Papley & Crouch

Easily the second pair - we are currently slow enough as it is.

Papley at his best is a top 5 league small forward, while Wines wouldn't be in the top 20-30 midfielders in the league.

 

[Macca43]

At least with Kemp he isn't slight (Dow, Setterfield are) or slow (Kennedy, Setterfield are), so at least from a physical perspective he is going to be able to hold his own in the middle. I'm much more interesting to see if his has the base-level nous at the stoppages.

I'm cautious to pump him up too much before he has played a game though. I loved the selection, and the patience we've got in bringing him into the team. I partly suspect some teams may have been happy to pass him over because he wouldn't feature this year, which was the same reason someone like Ryan Burton was overlooked, so that was nice.

The bonus of course is pending some good form we should see Philp feature in some games this year. Not like-for-like or anything, but showed some conviction in the pre-season, and there is certainly some opportunity for another small-medium forward if he's good enough.

Getting over a full year picking Cripps brain should help that base level nous.

 

[Own The Future]

Getting over a full year picking Cripps brain should help that base level nous.

Great point.
I know we are all keen to see our first round pick on the park - especially as he ticks so many of the boxes of need - but the value of spending a whole season in the AFL environment without the pressure of playing cannot be overlooked.
If he is anywhere near the sponge that the coaches praise him for being, he’ll excel with that extra grounding that most draftees don’t get.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Agree with this.
If by some miracle we are presented with the option to take our pick of Crouch or Wines - for the same $/length of contract - I’d 100% take Crouch due to the fact he would not cost any players/picks to acquire. Utilising the FA market while retaining draft assets is the best approach.

This approach hasn't really gotten us anywhere TBH. We have reduced the list profile age, yet somehow we managed to field the 4th oldest squad on Saturday of 18 teams over the weekend. Yes, yes, yes, I know we just need time to develop our squad blah blah blah, we have been singing that tune since the 2015 draft and all we really have to show for it is Weitering, Walsh and a whole lot of questionable draft picks that may or may not recover from their hospital beds to become good players. Or they wont. Its all a bit up in the air, but there is always next year I suppose.

 

[marcjudd]

Can someone confirm McGovern is on $800000 a year if so that’s why our club is the laughing stock of the AFL

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

With respect, two years ago that guy was Kennedy. I'd prefer to wait and see what Kemp is like (TBF I've seen none of his work so wouldn't know) before saying that.

Kennedy is a half forward. always has been. Don't know why people thought he would be the midfielder we needed.