List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[FairKouta]

Gold coast are going to go hard for crouch too. We won’t get him

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I don't think Williams will leave either, but force the price up and something else could fall out, such as a Caldwell

As for Wines, being contracted may force an unrealistic price tag in regards to picks, although he certainly would help as long as we have more speed around him and Cripps

I might be in the minority but I’d rather give our first up for Wines than Caldwell. The time to improve is now.

 

[El Topo]

We have to cut the chord sooner or later.
I think end of this season is the time to make that decision
Thank Simmo, Murph and Kruez for their services, but we need to move on.
Time for the younger group to step up and lead our club.

They wouldn't have cut Daisy if they weren't planning for exactly this

 

[murphster]

Without going into any great detail, I think the talent acquired on our list, although yet unproven, is likely going to be good enough to drive us up the ladder. A lot of them just need more time to develop. A few high picks will end up busts but that’s the case for all clubs - it’s pretty much impossible to hit on every pick. We just need enough of them to be good enough.

However, the point I really want to make, which is easily overlooked, is whether we’re recruiting guys that can change the culture of the club. I don’t yet have a view on this because it takes time to see what these youngsters become. Ultimately, our success as a club going forward is going to come down to this. I understand that culture is also built from the footy department and the coaching team, but ultimately the players are the ones that have to go out there and get the job done every week.

Hodge, Mitchell, Buddy, Roughy, Lewis etc are all great players but also have the hard edge to them. They took a losing hawthorn culture that had festered for 10 years and turned it into a brutal club. Ditto the Cats with Chapman, Bartel, Johnson, Enright, Scarlett etc. Ditto Richmond with Cotchin, Reiwoldt, Martin, Rance etc.

I’d say Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuz were all very talented players from pretty much day one. They are all fairly well acclaimed over their careers. They aren’t the absolute best of the best, but they were still good picks. However, they weren’t able to turn around our losing culture. I’m not trying to have a go at them for that because the coaching (mainly Mick), the recruiting (2009-2014 drafts) and the senior players when they started really hindered their ability to change the culture.

The question is can Weiters, H, Charlie, JSOS, SPS, Fish, Willo, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh, Stocker, Kemp, Philp etc change the culture? They’ll be led by Crippa and Doc, but ultimately they’ll also have to drive the standards. It doesn’t matter whether Murph, Simmo, Ed, Cas etc buy in because they’ll be all gone soon. They’ll need support from the coaches and footy dept but for me this is the key issue. We can put together a talented list but it won’t mean much unless we learn to be a ruthless club. I cross my fingers and hope.

Simple answer Yes

 

[murphster]

No happy with my predictions in the past

Realistically we are only really missing 2 best 22 players, Fisher and Charlie

We won't finish bottom 4, and I am confident it wont be bottom 6

Percentage will be important this year

I agree completely Arrow, we are a bees dick away from getting it right and clicking into gear, fix our starts and we will beat a lot of other teams, all the doom and gloom and talk of clean outs is the unrealistic view of where we are at.

 

[Eiffel 65]

We need to sort out our own backyard before recruiting players from other clubs.

Guys who are coming out of contract next season and I want to see sign long term contracts before we sign a free agent:

1. Cripps
2. Weitering
3. Docherty
4. McKay
5. SPS
6. Fisher
7. JSOS
8. O'brien

Some pretty big names on that list.

 

[katmanblue]

Or he could be one of the few that make the instant impact. There is always that option.

Right. Though I am weary of expecting too much from draftees too soon.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Beer n Skittles]

I really think we're at a bit of a precipice where we need an established player to become better, who will make the junior players around them better.
Get the feeling these high picks will stagnate if left without enough support

 

[Michael Jezz]

I suspect this has far more to do with off field culture than it does on field. Hawthorn had Jeff Kennett who was ruthless in his acceptance of failure, this was supported by successful premiership players in Jason Dunstall and a coach that is as ruthless as he is a tactical genius. Geelong are led by Frank Costa who is a hard nosed business man who has battled against shady operators to dominate the fruit and veg space, had Neil Blame whos records speaks for itself and a former premiership captain as its coach in Mark Thompson.. Successful people breed a successful culture.

I don't think the president MLG has the charisma to build a successful culture-he couldn't front the playing group after an abject performance like elliot, lofts, harris, pratt.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

We need to sort out our own backyard before recruiting players from other clubs.

Guys who are coming out of contract next season and I want to see sign long term contracts before we sign a free agent:

1. Cripps
2. Weitering
3. Docherty
4. McKay
5. SPS
6. Fisher
7. JSOS
8. O'brien

Some pretty big names on that list.

Only 2 guys on that list id put on long term deals. 1 and 2

 

[DangerousD]

The big bodied midfielder that we are looking for is already on the list and his name is Brodie Kemp

possibly, but as we have seen, is that young mids and young players, take a lot longer to consistently perform than we need.

Dow and O’Brien, in to their 3rd season and currently not best 22, other top picks from that draft are still inconsistent.

Setterfield still finding his feet, Darcy Parish, just starting to show good signs.

Kemp may buck the trend, but next year he will be coming off an ACL, so I doubt he will be a consistent performer until 2023

 

[Michael Jezz]

We have to cut the chord sooner or later.
I think end of this season is the time to make that decision
Thank Simmo, Murph and Kruez for their services, but we need to move on.
Time for the younger group to step up and lead our club.

2 of the 3 should go. I would give murph 1 more b/c we lack polish. The output and leadership of the other 2 are dimiminishing

 

[murphster]

I don't think Williams will leave either, but force the price up and something else could fall out, such as a Caldwell

As for Wines, being contracted may force an unrealistic price tag in regards to picks, although he certainly would help as long as we have more speed around him and Cripps

I think we have that speed coming through in Philp, Stocker, Kemp, Dow, LoB, Ramsay etc and I think Wines has been misused at Port and could really flourish with Cripps as the bull and him slimmed down a bit and given the chance to use his power in a more constructive manner, also really seems to be out of favour at Port and crying out for a change for both him and the club, I will be very interested to see if he comes straight back in this week as I read there was talk that he wasn’t in there best 22 before Rd2 which was interesting to say the least.

 

[murphster]

I don't think Williams will leave either, but force the price up and something else could fall out, such as a Caldwell

As for Wines, being contracted may force an unrealistic price tag in regards to picks, although he certainly would help as long as we have more speed around him and Cripps

Yep and I would be rapped if we got Caldwell or Hately who will be very gettable especially after they added Green last year, something’s gotta give there, I saw Phil Davis said he was so impressed with Caldwells efforts he’d give him a 10 year deal.

 

[murphster]

I think so.

I think it’s almost a lay down misere that he leaves it’s just a matter of where he goes, Bumbers would go hard if DODO has any sense and could do a swap for Orazio.

 

[thylacine60]

Crows chairman tries to settle ruffled feathers

Adelaide football director Mark Ricciuto is adamant he "wasn’t trying to have a crack" at ex-Crows Mitch McGovern and Jake Lever as player manager Colin Young hit back.

www.theage.com.au

"The reasons Mitch left the Crows was because of the camp and the Adelaide football department and that's it. Again with Charlie, it was not the money. Let's just leave it at that!"

 

[murphster]

We need to sort out our own backyard before recruiting players from other clubs.

Guys who are coming out of contract next season and I want to see sign long term contracts before we sign a free agent:

1. Cripps
2. Weitering
3. Docherty
4. McKay
5. SPS
6. Fisher
7. JSOS
8. O'brien

Some pretty big names on that list.

Great point mate

 

[BlueJet]

Have to look at it deductively.

Crouch comes over without having to sacrifice any draft picks. With Wines and Papley we will have to give up a minimum of one first rounder each, so to me if we are looking at balancing our trade assets with list needs it’d be far more effective to add one inside mid with one small forward. One first round draft pick is used, and two quality players in positions of need come into the squad.

The other issue I have with taking two extra inside midfielders is we don’t know how our team will function with both in the team. If we take on Crouch we then have the 2021 season to re-assess our list requirements sit. What if it turns out the squad is too slow with both Crouch and Wines in the 22? It’s too late. As we saw with Adelaide’s slow decline, you certainly can have two many one-paced midfielders in the side, and that can eventually cripple you. I’m starting to see some similarities in Hawthorn’s current midfield. It’s all well and good having a bunch of natural footballers, and we will our fair share of clearances, but we also become very vulnerable on turnover - and it’s not as though we are a pacy team around the ground currently either.

It’s also important to remember we’ve invested in Kemp and Stocker in the past two drafts being built up to play predominantly inside midfield roles. If either one become a part of the regular rotation (with Setterfield, Walsh etc) then along with Cripps and Crouch that mitigates the need for another inside mid.

If we are happy to give up a second first round pick this year I’d rather offer it for Caldwell, who, like Walsh, should end up becoming a very good outside midfielder. I think he will actually be better at the start of the 2021 season.

A midfield of Cripps, Crouch, Walsh, Caldwell and Kemp looks far more dynamic and versatile than Cripps, Crouch, Wines, Walsh and Kemp, and we get a greater return on investment in the long-term, provided Caldwell becomes an influential player; which I anticipate he will be.

Quality response.
I'd say that Crouch is neither slow nor a purely inside mid.

Using the previously powerful Hawks as an example, they were built around slowish ballwinners which they complemented with line breakers & quality ball users - similarly, Richmond isn't exactly struggling with Cotchin, Prestia etc fronting the majority of stoppages either.
I don't see why Carlton is unable to do similar.

I've been a big wrap for Kemp for some time but that he develops into a mid is no sure thing, his best work to date has been off a hbf - hopefully in time he can become a mid but he has a long way to go before he's a bankable asset there.
IMHO your midfield comparisons are heavily reliant on both Kemp & Caldwell becoming quality mids which remains to be seen, a strong case could also be made that the second midfield grouping offers us greater positional flexibility & turns stoppages into a strength.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be mad at the club for securing one of Wines or Crouch and a developing prospect like Hately or Caldwell, as with a bit of luck it'd hold us in good stead now & into the future.

 

[Arr0w]

I might be in the minority but I’d rather give our first up for Wines than Caldwell. The time to improve is now.

Caldwell won't cost a 1st rounder

 

[Sidthehat]

Gold coast are going to go hard for crouch too. We won’t get him

Sorry to intrude, for some reason I think North will end up getting Crouch. Agree with those of you who think Wines a much better fit for you. Could be costly though. McGov to them in part-exchange?

 

[La Dispute]

Caldwell won't cost a 1st rounder

Depends how much he plays and how good his form is this year. He was a former first rounder himself, drafted in an exceptionally strong draft that is unearthing stars on what seems almost like a weekly basis.

I’d much rather use Pick 5 on Caldwell with a few years experience than select an 18 year old from a weakened and compromised (due to academy pick dilution and lack of exposure to junior football) 2020 draft pool.

At best we might be able to downgrade our first pick to a later first rounder, but GWS won’t accept being ripped off in a trade. They know how good he is, and I think we will see his talent on display in a big way throughout the year, and we’ve already got a small glimpse in the first few rounds.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Sorry to intrude, for some reason I think North will end up getting Crouch. Agree with those of you who think Wines a much better fit for you. Could be costly though. McGov to them in part-exchange?

Don't have to apologise.

Not sure North need Crouch. They seem to have a lot of his type.

Reckon they're more likely to go after Papley. He's more of a need for them and I believe he may have a decent connection with Rhyce Shaw.

The AFL would probably want to facilitate Crouch moving to Gold Coast too, especially given he was reportedly keen to move there at the end of last season. All speculation of course.

I get that Wines is a good player, but our midfield is very slow as it is. There's no doubt he'd improve our midfield group, but I'm not sure he would provide the right balance.

 

[La Dispute]

Quality response.
I'd say that Crouch is neither slow nor a purely inside mid.

Using the previously powerful Hawks as an example, they were built around slowish ballwinners which they complemented with line breakers & quality ball users - similarly, Richmond isn't exactly struggling with Cotchin, Prestia etc fronting the majority of stoppages either.
I don't see why Carlton is unable to do similar.

I've been a big wrap for Kemp for some time but that he develops into a mid is no sure thing, his best work to date has been off a hbf - hopefully in time he can become a mid but he has a long way to go before he's a bankable asset there.
IMHO your midfield comparisons are heavily reliant on both Kemp & Caldwell becoming quality mids which remains to be seen, a strong case could also be made that the second midfield grouping offers us greater positional flexibility & turns stoppages into a strength.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be mad at the club for securing one of Wines or Crouch and a developing prospect like Hately or Caldwell, as with a bit of luck it'd hold us in good stead now & into the future.

My thinking is we are hedging our bets either way if we bring Crouch in, and hopefully Kemp comes on as we’d expect. The other issue is how much cap space we are allocating purely to inside midfielders. With the reduction cap space that’s essentially over 2 million on 3 players, and it may not even prove to be an effective strategy.

I think the Richmond example actually works in reverse. They have a pure inside mid in Prestia, Martin who divides his time between the midfield and the forwardline, Cotchin who’s as outside as inside, and they a rotating cast of players who can pinch hit in there: Edwards, Lambert, Pickett etc.

Im thinking along similar lines pairing Crouch with Caldwell. Kemp gets to learn of Cripps and Crouch, Caldwell learns off Murphy and Cripps. We’ve then covered our bases in the short, mid and long term.

 

[Arr0w]

Depends how much he plays and how good his form is this year. He was a former first rounder himself, drafted in an exceptionally strong draft that is unearthing stars on what seems almost like a weekly basis.

I’d much rather use Pick 5 on Caldwell with a few years experience than select an 18 year old from a weakened and compromised (due to academy pick dilution and lack of exposure to junior football) 2020 draft pool.

At best we might be able to downgrade our first pick to a later first rounder, but GWS won’t accept being ripped off in a trade. They know how good he is, and I think we will see his talent on display in a big way throughout the year, and we’ve already got a small glimpse in the first few rounds.

Oh I rate him highly, but being out of contract leaves GWS in a difficult situation especially if any Melbourne club/s finish on the bottom

 

[La Dispute]

Oh I rate him highly, but being out of contract leaves GWS in a difficult situation especially if any Melbourne club/s finish on the bottom

Uncontracted players go for unders, but even say Pick 11 in this draft is far less than Caldwell’s market value, which can’t be represented once he nominates a club.

I suspect though if he entered into the National Draft a club would take him with a top 5 pick, no question.