List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[ABigOlDoofus]

Love that the footy is back and all of this discussion is going on again! Loads of fun reading through the opinions of everyone.

Some personal thoughts of mine:

Docherty: him to the midfield is not the answer IMO. His help in the midfield is not equivalent to what he provides down back at all. I think a lot of people underestimate or forget how important he is as a leader back there, he really helps with our structure and exiting the back 50.

SPS: while I like him down back, I think his best position will be midfield in the end. He is so, so smooth under pressure, and his decision making and ball use is fantastic going inside 50, which is something we're really, really lacking atm. His pressure and tackling are also something we're sorely missing in the middle.

Willa: So, so excited to see him back. I think his best position eventually will be the wing, however I'm totally fine having him down back for now.

Stocker: Get him in already. I don't care if he plays 70% TOG, we desperately need his tenacity and toughness at the coalface. He might not quite be ready yet, but I'm ok with that.

Martin: We need to figure out a way to make him a 20-25ppg player, because the instant we do we become a much better side. Every time he gets the ball something good happens, we need to include him in midfield rotations way more often.

Kemp: Will become an important player for us in the future. We all praise Levi for being able to fill so many holes, Kemp will do the same for us but as a medium forward/back and inside mid, instead of key forward/back and ruck. Should be a huge presence next to Cripps in the middle if he can get his body right.

Off-season trade targets: I think we should be done with the draft, we need to be trying to off-load those picks for mature bodies in positions of need. My concern isn't giving up too much in a trade for someone like Wines/Crouch, my concern is paying too much in cap for them. I think Wines and Crouch would both make our team instantly better, but if we're paying them way too much I'd much rather get some budget options and have faith that our younger players will come on sooner rather than later.

Papley is obviously the big target we're after, but as always a lot changes between now and the off-season, so lets not plan around whether or not we trade for Wines/Crouch/Papley/Williams etc. when something much, much better/worse might happen.

 

[Own The Future]

Correct. That question will determine how far this group goes. Without the hard edge, we could be a finals side based on talent but unlikely it will be sustainable or result in a flag. Get the toughness right and sky’s the limit.

BB15 - interested to know if you can nominate any potentially “gettable” players around the league who fit the bill of toughness? I totally agree that there is a perception that we are too nice to play against - a few on the game day thread mentioned we were playing bruise free footy vs Melb - so that elusive mongrel is much needed. Not from top to bottom of the list, but every team needs an element of hardness.
These are the types of player I mean (not necessarily gettable, but show the qualities I think we need):
Taylor Adams
Zak Jones
Jack Steele
Jack Viney
Luke Parker
Callan Ward
and so on

Anyone come to mind you think we should target? Or do you think that type of player exists on the list already?

 

[Own The Future]

Love that the footy is back and all of this discussion is going on again! Loads of fun reading through the opinions of everyone.

Some personal thoughts of mine:

Docherty: him to the midfield is not the answer IMO. His help in the midfield is not equivalent to what he provides down back at all. I think a lot of people underestimate or forget how important he is as a leader back there, he really helps with our structure and exiting the back 50.

SPS: while I like him down back, I think his best position will be midfield in the end. He is so, so smooth under pressure, and his decision making and ball use is fantastic going inside 50, which is something we're really, really lacking atm. His pressure and tackling are also something we're sorely missing in the middle.

Willa: So, so excited to see him back. I think his best position eventually will be the wing, however I'm totally fine having him down back for now.

Stocker: Get him in already. I don't care if he plays 70% TOG, we desperately need his tenacity and toughness at the coalface. He might not quite be ready yet, but I'm ok with that.

Martin: We need to figure out a way to make him a 20-25ppg player, because the instant we do we become a much better side. Every time he gets the ball something good happens, we need to include him in midfield rotations way more often.

Kemp: Will become an important player for us in the future. We all praise Levi for being able to fill so many holes, Kemp will do the same for us but as a medium forward/back and inside mid, instead of key forward/back and ruck. Should be a huge presence next to Cripps in the middle if he can get his body right.

Off-season trade targets: I think we should be done with the draft, we need to be trying to off-load those picks for mature bodies in positions of need. My concern isn't giving up too much in a trade for someone like Wines/Crouch, my concern is paying too much in cap for them. I think Wines and Crouch would both make our team instantly better, but if we're paying them way too much I'd much rather get some budget options and have faith that our younger players will come on sooner rather than later.

Papley is obviously the big target we're after, but as always a lot changes between now and the off-season, so lets not plan around whether or not we trade for Wines/Crouch/Papley/Williams etc. when something much, much better/worse might happen.

Fantastic post.
Sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

[ABigOlDoofus]

BB15 - interested to know if you can nominate any potentially “gettable” players around the league who fit the bill of toughness? I totally agree that there is a perception that we are too nice to play against - a few on the game day thread mentioned we were playing bruise free footy vs Melb - so that elusive mongrel is much needed. Not from top to bottom of the list, but every team needs an element of hardness.
These are the types of player I mean (not necessarily gettable, but show the qualities I think we need):
Taylor Adams
Zak Jones
Jack Steele
Jack Viney
Luke Parker
Callan Ward
and so on

Anyone come to mind you think we should target? Or do you think that type of player exists on the list already?

We already have a player like this on our list and it's Stocker, hence why I think we need to be pumping in as much game time as he can handle.

 

[BlueBlood15]

BB15 - interested to know if you can nominate any potentially “gettable” players around the league who fit the bill of toughness? I totally agree that there is a perception that we are too nice to play against - a few on the game day thread mentioned we were playing bruise free footy vs Melb - so that elusive mongrel is much needed. Not from top to bottom of the list, but every team needs an element of hardness.
These are the types of player I mean (not necessarily gettable, but show the qualities I think we need):
Taylor Adams
Zak Jones
Jack Steele
Jack Viney
Luke Parker
Callan Ward
and so on

Anyone come to mind you think we should target? Or do you think that type of player exists on the list already?

Yeah I think that list hits the type of players many of us here are looking for to bring some toughness and mongrel. I was disappointed we didn’t pivot to Zak Jones last year - has toughness and speed - but that ship has now sailed. It’s hard to know who is gettable beyond the FAs and Wines. I like Wines for mongrel but I suspect Port’s ask ends up being too high. Think Zac Williams has a bit of toughness to him (throws his body at everything) although he’s not an inside mid as such. I’d be targeting him because we also need speed and he would come for free.

In terms of the guys on our list with a bit of mongrel that haven’t been playing, I like Willo, Stocker and Kemp. From what I’ve heard, all those guys aren’t short of confidence and I think that swagger manifests in mongrel out on the field. They each won’t be taking backward steps. We certainly need to prioritise the traits of mongrel and toughness in our recruiting going forward.

 

[Own The Future]

We already have a player like this on our list and it's Stocker, hence why I think we need to be pumping in as much game time as he can handle.

I think 99% of us on this forum share your thoughts here. As has been raised elsewhere, I am baffled as to why he seems so far out of favour. I know others have said to give it time, he’s a season and 3 rounds into his career - but I’d just love some intel as to what he is supposedly doing wrong. The flashes we have seen have impressed us, he had his injury which is presumably healed, now not even an emergency.
I don’t expect the club to officially state why he’s not playing - but hopefully an ITK can shed some light.

 

[ABigOlDoofus]

I think 99% of us on this forum share your thoughts here. As has been raised elsewhere, I am baffled as to why he seems so far out of favour. I know others have said to give it time, he’s a season and 3 rounds into his career - but I’d just love some intel as to what he is supposedly doing wrong. The flashes we have seen have impressed us, he had his injury which is presumably healed, now not even an emergency.
I don’t expect the club to officially state why he’s not playing - but hopefully an ITK can shed some light.

I'd assume it's tank-related since our whole M/O since Russell came on board has been about fitness. They probably don't want to play him until he can run out a full game, which I can understand.

 

[Own The Future]

Yeah I think that list hits the type of players many of us here are looking for to bring some toughness and mongrel. I was disappointed we didn’t pivot to Zak Jones last year - has toughness and speed - but that ship has now sailed. It’s hard to know who is gettable beyond the FAs and Wines. I like Wines for mongrel but I suspect Port’s ask ends up being too high. Think Zac Williams has a bit of toughness to him (throws his body at everything) although he’s not an inside mid as such. I’d be targeting him because we also need speed and he would come for free.

In terms of the guys on our list with a bit of mongrel that haven’t been playing, I like Willo, Stocker and Kemp. From what I’ve heard, all those guys aren’t short of confidence and I think that swagger manifests in mongrel out on the field. They each won’t be taking backward steps. We certainly need to prioritise the traits of mongrel and toughness in our recruiting going forward.

Really identifying with your posts of late. I think we are on the same wavelength re the Blues and our areas of need.

 

[Own The Future]

I'd assume it's tank-related since our whole M/O since Russell came on board has been about fitness. They probably don't want to play him until he can run out a full game, which I can understand.

I think you’re right.
However, with the reduced quarter length this season surely now is as good a time as any to give him a crack? If he can’t run 75-80% of this game time, then his tank truly is well below standard.
I do think with rotations either off the bench or fwd/back there is a way to carry him while his fitness base improves. He’s never going to be a Blicavs or Scully and run all day without even looking puffed - but the attributes he has are in short supply on our list, so in my opinion the match committee and coaches need to concentrate on what he can do rather than obsessing on what he can’t.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

I’m starting a tin rattle to get Rowell.
Who’s in?

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

I’d like to know how much Williams is on and what his new offer will be up there. I’d give him plenty and promise him all the midfield time he can handle...

 

[Kouta2Fev]

Apologies long post. Feel free to skip.

I try to take the passion out of it and look at our list objectively. A lot of kids - many unproven. Many still young enough that you don't give up on them yet. I think we will need to cull to 38 players (maybe 40 if the AFL is very nice). Going through our list and taking out my personal bias (also ignoring contracts - some of my changes likely not possible because player is contracted):

JSOS - gets another year (not sure if out of contract). Is a handy utiluty and unless he wants to leave, we need to keep him. I would play him every game and see what we have.

DOW - too early but so far signs are slightly concerning. Plenty of time to turn it around. If we could trade him to the Tigers or North for a pick that got us Hatley or Caldwell I would do it. Otherwise we picked him at 3 he needs two more years to make a call. If we lose to the Cats he must play every game bar injury.

MURPHY - last year. Trade to a contender for a late second (ideally early second). I think the Tigers or even Saints may pay something for him. If Saints go close to top 8 (unlikely) he may reunite with Ratten. Amazing player club legend but we need to be ruthless like the Hawks - 1 gone

O'Brien - really concerned about this one. Personal bias here as I thought he was a poor pick at 10. That said, worth zero on trade table so if we lose to the Cats I would play him for 10 games straight to give him a real taste. Gets another year.

SPS - needs to play midfield all year. Is not a HBF. We need his silk delivering from a wing to our mids. If West Coast or Freo offered overs - trade him. But would have to be clear overs. I rate this kid. Will take a Weitering size leap soon.

SIMPSON - build him a statue and say good luck in retirement - 2 gone

KENNEDY - seen enough. Will not be the player we hoped - 3 gone

KREUZER - I love this bloke. But he is too injury prone and I think we have his replacement. Plus salary best spent elsewhere. Trade him to a contender or his preferred club. Otherwise part ways - 4 gone

CRIPPS - trade or delist...kidding. Absolute gem. He will hold up 17

MCKAY - will click in the next 1-2 years and be a 50 goal a year CHF.

MCGOVERN - bias here. Do not rate. Is a flashy player and we don't need that. If we can get a 2nd rounder or young Victorian from the West I would let him go - 5 gone (I know the club won't do this)

DEKONING - big wraps but needs to live up to it. Has two years to show his wares - early days

STOCKER - if we lose to the Cats must play at least 10 games. Be patient - at least two more years

JONES - love him as a bloke and his story. Has at least two years left

DOCHERTY - see Cripps. Love him

LANG - delist - 6 gone

KEMP - too early. Hopefully becomes A grade. Zero idea if he will but fingers crossed

WALSH - 15 year player. Statue to be built at end of career

BETTS - great player (my favourite) but this will be his last year - 7 gone

PLOWMAN - I really like Lachie as a bloke and a player but I think he may get slower as he ages. Would keep but would trade for a pick between 20 and 30

MARCHBANK - see him as a long term key defender but injury prone. Deserves another year - would look at trading if he got us an A grader with another pick

WEITERING - statue. I love this kid. When pooring shit on Dow or SPS - remember he went through some bad times and look at him. Progress is not linear

NEWMAN - solid for another year or two but not best 22 in a flag

FISHER - love this kid but would trade for a top 20 pick or if he got us an A grader with something else. Likely keep and I actually see him as a possible HBF

MACREDIE - had enough time delist - 8 gone

PITTONET - long term number 1 ruck or great back up

CUNNINGHAM - needs a run at it if fit all year. Worth at least another year

POLSON - really rate but hasn't been lucky. 50/50 likely goes this year if big cull - 9 gone

CURNOW C - love him. Hope he comes back to be our long term FF

WILLIAMSON - rate. Deserves more time

NEWNES - stop gap measure. Gone next year

RAMSAY - too early

PHILP - too early

ED - give another year or two

HONEY - too early

BSOS - likely go due to need to cut list - 10 gone

ODWYER - one more year if we have the list space

PHILLIPS - could be unlucky if we need to cull. One more year I hope

GIBBONS - at least one more year

LEVI - great stop gap. If a contender wanted him would trade but otherwise 1-2 more years

SETTERFIELD - must play this whole year and likely next. If not best 22 by then say bye

OWIES - hasn't had a chance but we need to cut - 11 gone

GODDARD - need to cut - 12 gone

COTTRELL - if doesn't show anything gone - 13 gone

MOORE - if doesn't show anything gone - 14 gone

So maximum of 14 gone. I believe we have a list of 46. That lets us take 6 players (if 38 list) so 3-4 draft and ideally 3 free agents or trades.

What I would do? I would take Viney as a free agent and trade 2021 first for Wines. Rotate Cripps and Wines forward/mid and have the three bash brothers. We would be a hard as nails and make our younger guys stand tall automatically. I would trade 2020 first round for Papley and try and get Williams from GWS as a free agent. Then use our second and third on pacey mids.

We line up for 2021 as:

Plowman Jones Docherty ------ Stocker ideally replaces Plowman if he comes on
Williamson Weitering Williams (GWS)
Viney Setterfield Walsh ------- Could be any of Dow, Kemp, Gibbons etc for Setters (bit of size but not slow)
Martin McKay. Papley
Wines Curnow Cunningham
Pittonet Cripps. SPS

Bench - Levi, Dow, JSOS and Fisher ----- ideally DeKonning replaces Levi. Could be any of Kemp, Philp, Ed etc

I would rotate all of Cunners, Wines, Martin, Papley and Williams through the midfield. I would have our forwards press up and leave Charlie and a resting Wines/Cripps close to the square. To me that is a team you can build to a flag over 3-4 years. Likely would only need to replace Jones and maybe Plowman

 

[Blue1980]

When Docherty took over the captaincy at the start of 2018 he was setting himself to become a key part of our midfield.. The answer to our midfield issues might be closer than we think.. Give him another half dozen games finding his feet and then i think we throw him in there and see what we have got..

I feel he is not a midfielder, why is our plan to always shoehorn guys in there?

 

[Blue1980]

100% and how many of the players that GWS were happy to lose have gone onto be any good..

Happy to lose? Well from the ones we got, I think they wanted to keep Marchy. Plowman maybe? He’s been good for us.

 

[DangerousD]

BB15 - interested to know if you can nominate any potentially “gettable” players around the league who fit the bill of toughness? I totally agree that there is a perception that we are too nice to play against - a few on the game day thread mentioned we were playing bruise free footy vs Melb - so that elusive mongrel is much needed. Not from top to bottom of the list, but every team needs an element of hardness.
These are the types of player I mean (not necessarily gettable, but show the qualities I think we need):
Taylor Adams
Zak Jones
Jack Steele
Jack Viney
Luke Parker
Callan Ward
and so on

Anyone come to mind you think we should target? Or do you think that type of player exists on the list already?

Zak Jones was available last year and by memory, we were never really in the race for him, he wasn’t expensive and would have been a good get for us.

 

[DangerousD]

I’d like to know how much Williams is on and what his new offer will be up there. I’d give him plenty and promise him all the midfield time he can handle...

How much $$$$$ difference do you need to offer, to get a guy to leave his home state/club?
Id guess the Giants will pay him around $700,000-$750,000 for 3-4 years.

 

[Blue1980]

What I do not want is another fringe player from another club who can’t get games, that will be lauded as our saviour.. We have tried this far to many times and it has not paid off.. Anyone we bring in needs to walk in, be starting 22 and a top 5 in our bnf.. If we have to give up draft picks to get this player so be it..

Fringe guys from other clubs in this category currently on our list and their output so far:

McGovern (below average)
Setterfield (below average)
Plowman (above average)
Jones (above average)
Pittonet (looks handy backup at worst)
Newnes (backup but not very good)
Lang (list clogger)
Kennedy (fail)
Betts (short term but looks well cooked, can’t see the harm as we have no small forwards)
Newman (above average so far)
Goddard (rookie list backup)

I think we expected at least half of them to step up for us, and most have not. Jones has unexpectedly been better than we’d have ever thought but in a completely different role.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

How much $$$$$ difference do you need to offer, to get a guy to leave his home state/club?
Id guess the Giants will pay him around $700,000-$750,000 for 3-4 years.

Kelly
Coniglio
Cameron
Greene
Whitfield
Taranto

And then you’ve got the likes of Davis, Ward, Hopper etc

Surely they couldn’t afford to give him that much??

 

[Blue1980]

I think you are probably glorifying just how effective SPS was in the midfield, was flashy and ertainl not hopeless but had many poor games where he just couldnt get his hands on the footy and would not have had many games where he has had 25+ disposals.

Correct, might be worth a mix of defence/midfield minutes instead.

Last year he wasn’t ready to be a full time mid

 

[Blue1980]

You're right about that, but in that post i only stated that SPS to the midfield makes more sense than moving Doc to the midfield, which i think holds true. Doc has zero exposed form as a midfielder and didn't really play there in juniors. Surely out of the 2 it's SPS.

SPS hasn't come on as I would have hoped...not many of the kids over the last 4 years have to be honest which is pretty sad given their potential. I still think he could be better in the midfield, I think some of his talents are wasted in defence (eg I50 passing, pretty good overhead mark, playing on instinct)...as a defender I think he gets caught between being attacking but also marking his man, and just isn't that great as a defender in D50 imo.

Just feel he'd be a far better player and show his skills more if he's allowed to hunt the ball more freely without having to worry about marking an opponent so much.

He at least looks capable at AFL level, like fisher does, can’t really say that for the majority of our younger guys taken the last 4 years (or Cuningham or JSOS).

We are basically trying to sift through about 10-15 younger guys on the list and see which ones of those can take is forward. My guess is not very many, so we still have a fair way to go yet and need to think of all ways to get talent in.

We have an under control salary cap, probably too far under control because we lack good proven AFL players. So we can be aggressive targeting free agents and trade targets.

 

[Kouta2Fev]

Correct, might be worth a mix of defence/midfield minutes instead.

Last year he wasn’t ready to be a full time mid

He isn’t the sort of player that would be a full time mid in year 3. This year he should transition to 75% mid time. SPS is a 20-25 possession classy mid. He is the cream. We need more cake to make him taste great

 

[murphster]

Uncontracted players go for unders, but even say Pick 11 in this draft is far less than Caldwell’s market value, which can’t be represented once he nominates a club.

I suspect though if he entered into the National Draft a club would take him with a top 5 pick, no question.

First round picks are like new cars as soon as you drive them off the lot they drop in value, most that end up getting traded within 3-4 years end up costing a second rounder.

 

[Blue1980]

I agree.
Additionally, you can generally pick up crumbing forwards quite cheaply - if it comes down to a first rounder (& realistically extras) going out for a small forward or mid, give me the mid every day of the week.

We need to get away from this thinking. Charlie Cameron went pick 13, no one would be saying that was overs now.

We need a small forward and if we can get one of the very best, we need to pay up.

If their so easy to find how come we haven’t found one in 5 years?

As close as we got was Matthew Wright who wasn’t really a specialist but did a really good job.

 

[btdg]

Why on earth is SPS taking flack? He's going along fine.

Has increased his numbers each year since entering the league and seems to be settling into the half-back position. So far this season (albeit in 2 scattered games), he's putting up a very nice 21 disposals per game (career high) at 77% disposal efficiency (career high) with only 1.5 TO (career high) and a whopping 10.5 intercept possessions (massive career high) per game. He had a couple of shaky moments in the first quarter vs Melbourne (which is ok given we were all apparently shaking off a bit of rust) but has looked much more confident with the defensive side of his role.

Looks set to have a Bachar Houli-esque career and that's something we totally need.

I don't mind discussing players who are underperforming but I don't see that with SPS. He's on track to be an All-Australian calibre HB when he hits 24-25 and have a long prime as well. He's just about the least of our worries when it comes to the younger guys.

 

[murphster]

Fair enough, I don’t see either Cripps or Wines anywhere near as dynamic as Martin and won’t have anywhere near the level of influence forward of the ball (it actually frustrates me no end how incompetent Cripps is at taking set shots), but that’s another topic.

Cripps may not be as dynamic but I think he will become even more dangerous than Martin when moved forward, also his kicking for goal last year was actually very good and something he has worked hard at, of his 2 misses last week one hit the post so was pretty damn close.