List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

We never embraced a rebuild till 2015, their rebuild was 2004

We were at different stages

Happy to copy their model, but not their strategy of the last 3 years

Have a look at our list and best 22 ages and quality in 2009. That was a fair old rebuild from being at rock bottom in 2004

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I wouldn't really call Angus a diamond in the rough when he came 3rd in the Brownlow a few years ago, but yes these "good but not great" players like McLean and Brayshaw are also players we need to be targeting, since it's unrealistic IMO that we land 2 or more of Wines, Crouch, Papley and Williams.

And for the record, I think Angus could be a "great" player if he's played in the guts as an extractor. No idea why the Dees insist on playing him outside.

He could be our diamond because he isn’t a Shiel or Coniglio and could cost half as much and still be super important. They don’t play him in there because of Petracca, Oliver who are guns and Viney has nowhere else to go.

 

[Arr0w]

Have a look at our list and best 22 ages and quality in 2009. That was a fair old rebuild from being at rock bottom in 2004

Are you seriously trying to tell me that was a serious rebuild strategy, rather than a quick fix too up?

 

[bigblueboy]

The difference between previous "rebuilds" and the current one is that there has been a strategy applied since 2015. Previously we changed or rebuilt the list, but there was no long term strategy applied.

 

[DangerousD]

We never embraced a rebuild till 2015, their rebuild was 2004

We were at different stages

Happy to copy their model, but not their strategy of the last 3 years

I disagree that we didn’t embrace a rebuild. We fully embraced the draft and slowly built for years, we were just horrible at it, we even added mature players with first round selections. Whilst I find the Hawks current strategy a bit off, they have the runs on the board, we were on the same page as them though, maybe a year later, we went one way and they went another.

2004 Round 1: Russel
2: Hartlett
3: Blackwell

2005 Round 1: Murphy
1: Kennedy
2: Bower
3. Edwards

2006 Round 1: Gibbs
1: Hampson
2: Grigg
3: Austin
4: Benjamin
5: Anderson

2007 Round 1: Kruz
3: Browne
4: Armfield

2008 Round 1: Yarran
3: Robinson

Add a 1st, 3rd and 4th round selection in 2009

Add a 1st, two 2nd rounders and a 4th in 2010

 

[thylacine60]

Admittedly I have a soft spot for Polson but reading this in the Reserves Player-by-player review really makes me hope he can make it.


29. Cameron Polson

Cam was good, he defended well and found the ball. He gave some great running drive up the ground. Off-the-field, he’s been sensational. He’s one that is so grateful and excited to play: he understands the situation better than most. He’s doing everything in his power to be better.

Forgotten man......

 

[Doro]

I disagree that we didn’t embrace a rebuild. We fully embraced the draft and slowly built for years, we were just horrible at it, we even added mature players with first round selections. Whilst I find the Hawks current strategy a bit off, they have the runs on the board, we were on the same page as them though, maybe a year later, we went one way and they went another.

2004 Round 1: Russel
2: Hartlett
3: Blackwell

2005 Round 1: Murphy
1: Kennedy
2: Bower
3. Edwards

2006 Round 1: Gibbs
1: Hampson
2: Grigg
3: Austin
4: Benjamin
5: Anderson

2007 Round 1: Kruz
3: Browne
4: Armfield

2008 Round 1: Yarran
3: Robinson

Add a 1st, 3rd and 4th round selection in 2009

Add a 1st, two 2nd rounders and a 4th in 2010

The main difference being that we didn't attempt to improve draft position at all. The only players who were on the trade table either asked for the trade (Jacobs, Hamill a bit earlier) or were sacked like Fevola. Kennedy being part of the Judd trade. We only targeted established players during this time (Judd, Warnock, McLean, missed on O'Keeffe). The strategy simply wasn't there.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I’d be inclined to ring WCE and see about Gaff. He has an opt out at the end of this season, but a trade may be an option.

Wines may well become surplus and tradeable if Ports young guns keep delivering.

...and I think both Crouch boys will be very gettable come years end, with Matt my preferred option.

All add to our midfield experience and depth.

Any love for Jeffy Garlett? Read a few articles saying he’s still AFL fit. Another lightning quick small indigenous would add so much To our forward line. Eddie gave GEE kittens. Cuningham has never moved the needle for me As a forward. Maybe move him back and bring Sammy forward.

Why does this matter in the slightest?

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Come on, tell us why? He’s been playing well and plays a position we are in need of. Where has the uncertainty come from?

Unconvinced in paying a motza for small forwards. Dont think he moves the needle at this point when our midfield is still crying out for ready made Cripps help.

 

[TheKITC]

Interesting to so hear some of Sam McClure's takes on FC last night. Even though he is a bit of a tool;

- Said they made direct contact with Papley. Find it strange his management wasn't involved?! Wouldn't think that's common practice?!
- Thinks Carlton played 'their cards' too soon and badly in not getting his management on-side before trying to deal with Sydney
- Thinks they have missed the boat due to the above and what the cost is looking like now being given his form - 2 x top 10 picks

Not sure about him as a journo really, but have to agree I think the price would look like being more this year the way he is tracking. He's arguably their best player, is in unquestionable AA form and has a weird, long term contract.

The Papley dream may be over. I want him badly, but not at that price which you really couldn't begrudge Sydney wanting to part with him TBH.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that was a serious rebuild strategy, rather than a quick fix too up?

Yep they just weren’t as good as we hoped exactly the same as what could happen to us now.
These are some of the players, age and some of the credientials of that list in 2009

Backline
Russell 22 (2nd in B&F in a Finals year). Thorton 25 (Handy player who almost played 200 games. Hawthorn chased extremely hard). Armfield 22 (almost 150 game player)

Yarran 18 (Hugely talented pick 6) Jamison 25 (hugely underrated reliable defender, rarely beaten) Scotland 28 (B&F, AA squad, 268 games, second most touches in AFL season)

Stevens 29 (star player) Gibbs 20 (one of the highest rated pick 1 in history) Simpson 24 (club great)

Fisher 24 (kicked 39 in a year). Waite 26. (What could’ve been but still a very good player) Andrew Walker 22 (kicked 56 in a season)

Garlett 19. (Kicked over 40 goals four times and 39 in his second season) Fev (Star) Betts 22 (one of the greatest small forwards of all time.)

Kruezer 19 (pick 1). Murphy 21 (AFL MVP, pick 1) Judd 25 (one of the leagues greats)

All those guys were 29 or less. Nearly all you would’ve thought had 4 years left.
That gives us 4 years to add to that core.

that’s not mentioning
Houlihan 27,
Carrazzo 25, one of the leagues best taggers.
Grigg 19, ended up a premiership player
Hadley 23 already was a premiership player
Jacobs 21, AA
Hampson 21, pick 17
Bower 21, pick 19
Hartlett 22, pick 24
Robinson 19, still a very handy player.
Houlihan 27, 200 game player.

that list won 13 games that season and you would’ve thought no one would retire within three years and about 75% of them would’ve had improvement in them. It was a much younger side then we have now and most likely far out performs us.
Nothing wrong at all with how that list was built, and there is huge depth considering that we had so many years to add to it. they just didn’t live upto the hype and we stuffed up the second faze.

as I said just look at the ages of those guys

 

[HARKER]

Interesting to so hear some of Sam McClure's takes on FC last night. Even though he is a bit of a tool;
- Said they made direct contact with Papley. Find it strange his management wasn't involved?! Wouldn't think that's common practice?!
- Thinks Carlton played 'their cards' too soon and badly in not getting his management on-side before trying to deal with Sydney
- Thinks they have missed the boat due to the above and what the cost is looking like now being given his form - 2 x top 10 picks
Not sure about him as a journo really, but have to agree I think the price would look like being more this year the way he is tracking. He's arguably their best player, is in unquestionable AA form and has a weird, long term contract.
The Papley dream may be over. I want him badly, but not at that price which you really couldn't begrudge Sydney wanting to part with him TBH.

The CFC won't pay that, if for no other reason than to not lose face.

It makes for tricky navigation for us in that - What are the pieces we need that will get us closer to a list that can win a flag.
I don't care if the CFC are seen to be paying overs for a player they need, than to get a bargain we don't need. It's all relative.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Whoever mentioned Brayshaw is on the money. He, Viney, Harmes or even Petracca might show some interest if we shake the tree. Must be sick of competing for the same footy.

McLean, Richards, Jong, Wallis all in a similar predicament at the Dogs, and all would improve us.

 

[Doro]

Yep they just weren’t as good as we hoped exactly the same as what could happen to us now.
These are some of the players, age and some of the credientials of that list in 2009

Backline
Russell 22 (2nd in B&F in a Finals year). Thorton 25 (Handy player who almost played 200 games. Hawthorn chased extremely hard). Armfield 22 (almost 150 game player)

Yarran 18 (Hugely talented pick 6) Jamison 25 (hugely underrated reliable defender, rarely beaten) Scotland 28 (B&F, AA squad, 268 games, second most touches in AFL season)

Stevens 29 (star player) Gibbs 20 (one of the highest rated pick 1 in history) Simpson 24 (club great)

Fisher 24 (kicked 39 in a year). Waite 26. (What could’ve been but still a very good player) Andrew Walker 22 (kicked 56 in a season)

Garlett 19. (Kicked over 40 goals four times and 39 in his second season) Fev (Star) Betts 22 (one of the greatest small forwards of all time.)

Kruezer 19 (pick 1). Murphy 21 (AFL MVP, pick 1) Judd 25 (one of the leagues greats)

All those guys were 29 or less. Nearly all you would’ve thought had 4 years left.
That gives us 4 years to add to that core.

that’s not mentioning
Houlihan 27,
Carrazzo 25, one of the leagues best taggers.
Grigg 19, ended up a premiership player
Hadley 23 already was a premiership player
Jacobs 21, AA
Hampson 21, pick 17
Bower 21, pick 19
Hartlett 22, pick 24
Robinson 19, still a very handy player.
Houlihan 27, 200 game player.

that list won 13 games that season and you would’ve thought no one would retire within three years and about 75% of them would’ve had improvement in them. It was a much younger side then we have now and most likely far out performs us.
Nothing wrong at all with how that list was built, and there is huge depth considering that we had so many years to add to it. they just didn’t live upto the hype and we stuffed up the second faze.

as I said just look at the ages of those guys

That list only had the one elite player in Judd. Fev had his Brownlow moment just after our elimination final loss and Stevens was a level below elite. Murphy was thereabouts in 2011 but injury brought that to a halt. Compare that to the stars in the Hawthorn and Geelong sides of the time, we didn't get multiple picks in the first round other than 2005 and we didn't get far in finals because of it.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Can someone remind me of what our draft hand is at the moment? Personally don't think Papley is any chance for a reasonable price at the moment which is a shame but if theres one glaring weakness in the list at the moment, I'd say thats quality ball movers. Murph and Simmo don't have long left and are really our go to ball users when moving it through zones. Would really love the club to go out and try and snag players from the clubs under the most pressure during this pandemic, one being Adelaide, the other being GWS with signing all their stars. Josh Kelly would have to be the number 1 focus for most clubs after real class in the middle, glad Cogs signed there as I personally think he would have sent us back into finals but not provided the list what we need to contend for the flag.

If the club could get Jelly and Laird I feel like the natural improvement and promise our our youngsters such as Philp and Honey could be enough to send us really shooting up the ladder.

Josh Kelly with Cripps and Martin, honestly couldnt think of two blokes better suited to pair with Cripps, and I'll admit, I didn't think Martin would have such an impact on how we move the ball so quickly, bloke is just oozing silk.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Whoever mentioned Brayshaw is on the money. He, Viney, Harmes or even Petracca might show some interest if we shake the tree. Must be sick of competing for the same footy.

McLean, Richards, Jong, Wallis all in a similar predicament at the Dogs, and all would improve us.

Agree with all but petracca. could be their best player by years end and would cost a bomb

 

[smashbox gill]

If Papley is off I’m sure we can find someone else - Ian hill looks a good small forward in the making

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

That list only had the one elite player in Judd. Fev had his Brownlow moment just after our elimination final loss and Stevens was a level below elite. Murphy was thereabouts in 2011 but injury brought that to a halt. Compare that to the stars in the Hawthorn and Geelong sides of the time, we didn't get multiple picks in the first round other than 2005 and we didn't get far in finals because of it.

Murphy won an AFL MVP, was favourite for a Brownlow until injures. He was elite just not for long. Betts became an elite player.

The point I was making was that list that won 13 games and was driven by a lot younger demographic then we have now is the result of a total rebuild. If any team won 13 games with a list that young you would fully expect to be able to take the next step. How do you rebuild a list anymore then what we done when we could already win 13 games. It would be like us now winning 13 games driven by our young kids, have no one who should retire in 4 years and thinking that we still need to be rebuilding not topping up. We’re in a position now that is way behind where we were then and we want to bring in mature players. I’m not saying this rebuild is better or worse but it’s re-writing history to suggest that, that list hadn’t been fully re-built to a point where we were ready to move onto the next phase of filling holes.
Agree that we were never as talented as Geelong or Hawthorn (Collingwood too was one of the best and youngest premiers of all time, St Kilda could’ve won two flags and were star studded) but that is no different to us now. There is a huge chance we will never be as talented as GC or GWS or some other side. It doesn’t mean you don’t start trying to contend rather then chasing more gun kids.

 

[Own The Future]

Whoever mentioned Brayshaw is on the money. He, Viney, Harmes or even Petracca might show some interest if we shake the tree. Must be sick of competing for the same footy.

McLean, Richards, Jong, Wallis all in a similar predicament at the Dogs, and all would improve us.

Agree with every single one of these - apart from Petracca. Not that I think he’s not worth chasing, more that I doubt he’d ever be available.
I actually thought of both McLean and Wallis whilst watching the game on Friday. Both would be the goal kicking mids we need - and also agree that some of those WB mids would/should be open to greater opportunities elsewhere.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

What about older players who might be 'retired' early by a team who bottoms out and wants to rebuild.
Crows? Freo? Dogs?

 

[Arr0w]

I disagree that we didn’t embrace a rebuild. We fully embraced the draft and slowly built for years, we were just horrible at it, we even added mature players with first round selections. Whilst I find the Hawks current strategy a bit off, they have the runs on the board, we were on the same page as them though, maybe a year later, we went one way and they went another.

2004 Round 1: Russel
2: Hartlett
3: Blackwell

2005 Round 1: Murphy
1: Kennedy
2: Bower
3. Edwards

2006 Round 1: Gibbs
1: Hampson
2: Grigg
3: Austin
4: Benjamin
5: Anderson

2007 Round 1: Kruz
3: Browne
4: Armfield

2008 Round 1: Yarran
3: Robinson

Add a 1st, 3rd and 4th round selection in 2009

Add a 1st, two 2nd rounders and a 4th in 2010

No rebuilding strategy there, pretty much taking what we had from left over in terms of picks from inept trading

 

[Arr0w]

Yep they just weren’t as good as we hoped exactly the same as what could happen to us now.
These are some of the players, age and some of the credientials of that list in 2009

Backline
Russell 22 (2nd in B&F in a Finals year). Thorton 25 (Handy player who almost played 200 games. Hawthorn chased extremely hard). Armfield 22 (almost 150 game player)

Yarran 18 (Hugely talented pick 6) Jamison 25 (hugely underrated reliable defender, rarely beaten) Scotland 28 (B&F, AA squad, 268 games, second most touches in AFL season)

Stevens 29 (star player) Gibbs 20 (one of the highest rated pick 1 in history) Simpson 24 (club great)

Fisher 24 (kicked 39 in a year). Waite 26. (What could’ve been but still a very good player) Andrew Walker 22 (kicked 56 in a season)

Garlett 19. (Kicked over 40 goals four times and 39 in his second season) Fev (Star) Betts 22 (one of the greatest small forwards of all time.)

Kruezer 19 (pick 1). Murphy 21 (AFL MVP, pick 1) Judd 25 (one of the leagues greats)

All those guys were 29 or less. Nearly all you would’ve thought had 4 years left.
That gives us 4 years to add to that core.

that’s not mentioning
Houlihan 27,
Carrazzo 25, one of the leagues best taggers.
Grigg 19, ended up a premiership player
Hadley 23 already was a premiership player
Jacobs 21, AA
Hampson 21, pick 17
Bower 21, pick 19
Hartlett 22, pick 24
Robinson 19, still a very handy player.
Houlihan 27, 200 game player.

that list won 13 games that season and you would’ve thought no one would retire within three years and about 75% of them would’ve had improvement in them. It was a much younger side then we have now and most likely far out performs us.
Nothing wrong at all with how that list was built, and there is huge depth considering that we had so many years to add to it. they just didn’t live upto the hype and we stuffed up the second faze.

as I said just look at the ages of those guys

The top 12 odd players were strong, but lacked depth

The strategy was not to bottom out at any cost, yet the result was just that

 

[Arr0w]

Posted this a while ago, in another thread....

Between 2007-2014 drafts, only Kruezer and Cripps are still at the club, 2E, Holman and Gowers, the only others still in the game. Pretty damning

 

[Jeremias]

What about older players who might be 'retired' early by a team who bottoms out and wants to rebuild.
Crows? Freo? Dogs?

None of any real interest.

I floated Mundy’s name last year but that ship has sailed. No need for him in 2021.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The top 12 odd players were strong, but lacked depth

The strategy was not to bottom out at any cost, yet the result was just that

You don’t have to have that strategy to rebuild but.