List Mgmt. 2020 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

How in the hell does another club selecting another player have anything to do with what WE GOT for the player WE SELECTED.

Like because hawthon select buddy somehow means what we did with pick 1 us suddenly not as bad.

Cmooonnnn

You said it was the worst draft decision in professional drafting history. I gave you an example of why you were wrong.

 

[StCicatriz]

You said it was the worst draft decision in professional drafting history. I gave you an example of why you were wrong.

I dont think I'm wrong for that. Its still worse than tambling because its sunk cost. We couldnt even have another crack at it! Even with 10 years in advancement in draft practices.

Tbh theres actually a selection worse than tambling which has been covered on the main board.

 

[George]

I dont think I'm wrong for that. Its still worse than tambling because its sunk cost. We couldnt even have another crack at it! Even with 10 years in advancement in draft practices.

Tbh theres actually a selection worse than tambling which has been covered on the main board.

You reckon a guy who played 100 games and never really showed anything being drafted over one of the best forwards of all-time is a better draft decision than someone who was crippled by injury over a guy who hasn't really shown that much?

I mean the difference between Tambling and Franklin is so much greater than the difference between McCartin and Petracca.

Which selection was on the main board? Tambling-Franklin was just off the top of my head. There's been some bad ones for sure.

 

[StCicatriz]

You reckon a guy who played 100 games and never really showed anything being drafted over one of the best forwards of all-time is a better draft decision than someone who was crippled by injury over a guy who hasn't really shown that much?

I mean the difference between Tambling and Franklin is so much greater than the difference between McCartin and Petracca.

Which selection was on the main board? Tambling-Franklin was just off the top of my head. There's been some bad ones for sure.

Yeah I do. For a start tambling was pick 4. Mccartin is pick 1.

You just don't get pick busts at pick 1 in the modern era. It just doesn't happen. At worst you get a GOP.

You had literally fans going wtf are you doing. Hobbyists who could see it was a bad move. You had media commentators doing the same thing.

But we pull the trigger on an injury prone undersized forward who had issues adapting to the modern game.

Who people select around us doesnt phase me in the slightest. Its what we get for how we choose to spend the pick and in this case we got nothing! We didn't even get a 2nd chance draw by trading him.

Tambling on the other hand was pick 4. That pick does have a bust rate. Especially when you consider richmond already had pick 1 and could be more speculative. Like we do when we have back to back picks or picks close together.

Tambling was also just off the era where you literally had video tape highlights to select players. For example listen to what our recruiters said they had available for the Xavier Clarke selection a bit earlier.

10 years later you had scouts going to every game. You had in-depth coded footage.

Then richmond atleast get to trade out tambling. Our pick is dead. At pick 1 which is unheard of. Like it just doesn't happen.

The other player I forget it resulted in a salary cap bust and loss of picks.

 

[George]

Yeah I do. For a start tambling was pick 4. Mccartin is pick 1.

You just don't get pick busts at pick 1 in the modern era. It just doesn't happen. At worst you get a GOP.

You had literally fans going wtf are you doing. Hobbyists who could see it was a bad move. You had media commentators doing the same thing.

But we pull the trigger on an injury prone undersized forward who had issues adapting to the modern game.

Who people select around us doesnt phase me in the slightest. Its what we get for how we choose to spend the pick and in this case we got nothing! We didn't even get a 2nd chance draw by trading him.

Tambling on the other hand was pick 4. That pick does have a bust rate. Especially when you consider richmond already had pick 1 and could be more speculative. Like we do when we have back to back picks or picks close together.

Tambling was also just off the era where you literally had video tape highlights to select players. For example listen to what our recruiters said they had available for the Xavier Clarke selection a bit earlier.

10 years later you had scouts going to every game. You had in-depth coded footage.

Then richmond atleast get to trade out tambling. Our pick is dead. At pick 1 which is unheard of. Like it just doesn't happen.

The other player I forget it resulted in a salary cap bust and loss of picks.

Nah still reckon Tambling much worse of a stuff up than Franklin.

 

[CarnTheSAINTERS]

You said it was the worst draft decision in professional drafting history. I gave you an example of why you were wrong.

I think he is implying that Tambling was a better player than mccartin, not the fact that they missed out on Franklin. I’d rather a 100 game bog average player than mccartin atm.

 

[saints2066]

To top it off we had pick 21 Goddard and 22 McKenzie. Degoey and Angus Bradshaw Also in the top5. Worst AFL trades of all time! I think lonie at 41 saved us.

Hopefully all the peeps involved in the disaster of the trades of 2014 are out of the club. Arguably the worst trading in the AFL era.

It’s part of the reason why I view that era as bad or worse than the saints of the 80s, but at least we had Lockett, Harvey, Burke, Loewe who looked promising.


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[The_Steadier]

100% agree. It only happens at Stkilda. With the dominant season Petracca had in the junior comps he was the clear and the safest bet at Pick 1 but we decided to punt on a forward which was a speculative pick at best. Even without Paddy's concussions I still doubt he was the best option there at 1.

There was nothing speculative about mccartin at 1.
Petracca was the riskier option at the time- he was the late bolter into pick 1 calculations across the industry.

 

[The_Steadier]

Name a bigger one? Must be easy to do given its an exaggeration!

Tambling over buddy for starters.
Luke ball over chis judd and luke hodge as a main.
Freo trading pick 1 for trent croad for dessert.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Jeez - the corona virus thread got pulled - and here we have pages and pages of crap about a draft pick where NO ONE in the industry really had a deadset No 1.

Just the Saints luck to have Number 1 pick in one of the most even drafts - now if we'd had it last year and didn't pick Rowell - now that would be a monumental stuff up.

Move on or close the thread down!!!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah I do. For a start tambling was pick 4. Mccartin is pick 1.

You just don't get pick busts at pick 1 in the modern era. It just doesn't happen. At worst you get a GOP.

You had literally fans going wtf are you doing. Hobbyists who could see it was a bad move. You had media commentators doing the same thing.

But we pull the trigger on an injury prone undersized forward who had issues adapting to the modern game.

Who people select around us doesnt phase me in the slightest. Its what we get for how we choose to spend the pick and in this case we got nothing! We didn't even get a 2nd chance draw by trading him.

Tambling on the other hand was pick 4. That pick does have a bust rate. Especially when you consider richmond already had pick 1 and could be more speculative. Like we do when we have back to back picks or picks close together.

Tambling was also just off the era where you literally had video tape highlights to select players. For example listen to what our recruiters said they had available for the Xavier Clarke selection a bit earlier.

10 years later you had scouts going to every game. You had in-depth coded footage.

Then richmond atleast get to trade out tambling. Our pick is dead. At pick 1 which is unheard of. Like it just doesn't happen.

The other player I forget it resulted in a salary cap bust and loss of picks.

You do when injury is involved. We never get to find out if McCartin was going to be a star, a gop or a bust.
Bennell was pick 2.
Patton was pick 1. ( Gop )
Tom Boyd ???


Pick 1 vs pick 2 or pick 4. No , they are actual real people, you don't get some sort of special immunity if they fall into 1.
If we'd got Petracca you'd have been calling him a washout up until now.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

His age and potential make him very desirable. He plays small and mid sized and is a super high impact player. He literally nails shots from anywhere and is a proven match winner. To me he's got top 20 player in the AFL potential. I'd chase Witherden while Brisbane are dicking around leaving him out too.

I agree but we've traded too much in recent years.
And while Brad Hill was ok against the dogs, he arguably played less of a game than freebie Hind.
There is a cost to all these trades.

 

[joop]

Nah still reckon Tambling much worse of a stuff up than Franklin.

No way.
Richmond at least got serviceable years out of Tambling and a draft pick in return. Richmond, Dogs & Hawthorn all passed on Buddy once, he wasn't a consensus pick 1. Every club in the league except us & 1 other had Petracca at pick 1.
McCartin kicked 3 goals in a game once, and kicked 2 in a quarter on Rance, thats it. Thats all we got from him. Petracca has dominated some games and is slowly putting it together more consistently.
Was a shocking move by the club no matter which way you look at it.

 

[gringo2011]

To top it off we had pick 21 Goddard and 22 McKenzie. Degoey and Angus Bradshaw Also in the top5. Worst AFL trades of all time! I think lonie at 41 saved us.

Hopefully all the peeps involved in the disaster of the trades of 2014 are out of the club. Arguably the worst trading in the AFL era.

It’s part of the reason why I view that era as bad or worse than the saints of the 80s, but at least we had Lockett, Harvey, Burke, Loewe who looked promising.


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That was one of those just horrible drafts for us. 2004 for the Tigers was pretty catastrophic too. Compared to the Hawks who also got a priority pick it probably set back the Tigers 5 years. Tigers had 5 picks in the top 20. Delido was pick one and was a gun but then took Tambling at 4, Danny Meyer at 12, Adam Pattison at 14 and Polo at 20. Hawks took Rouhead at 2, Buddy at 5 and Jordan Lewis at 7. One superstar and 2 stars versus one star and 4 blow average players.

Paddy Mc Cartin, Goddard and Mc Kenzie was worse than that for us because we didn't even get a Delidio out of it.

 

[Stewart66]

You reckon a guy who played 100 games and never really showed anything being drafted over one of the best forwards of all-time is a better draft decision than someone who was crippled by injury over a guy who hasn't really shown that much?

I mean the difference between Tambling and Franklin is so much greater than the difference between McCartin and Petracca.

Which selection was on the main board? Tambling-Franklin was just off the top of my head. There's been some bad ones for sure.

Richard Lounder was pick 1 ......Richmond....not great .

All clubs make mistakes in the draft.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

How in the hell does another club selecting another player have anything to do with what WE GOT for the player WE SELECTED.

Like because hawthon select buddy somehow means what we did with pick 1 us suddenly not as bad.

Cmooonnnn

We lost out on Paddy but won big on Roma during the same draft period.

Reverse the positions they were picked at & we're all back slapping.

Time to get over it I reckon.

 

[L_W_P]

Seriously?

We had Roo near the end, Bruce was a defender and Membrey still to play a game for us and unproven.

Where is all the revision that Petracca was a clear #1? Sure, most people had him at 1 but it was closer than is being represented here. McCartin was the right pick at the time. We needed a KPF and McCartin had shown enough to justify being a top 3 pick. We had pick 1 and took him.

What happened after that, nobody could see coming.

There was a serious trade in place for us to swap #1 and #21 for the Giants #3 and #6.The draft would have then gone - Petracca, Brayshaw, McCartin.

Once the Dees got pick 3 as compo for Frawley that deal was off the table because we couldn't get McCartin.

Had we done the deal we could have taken say peter Wright at #4 and Laverde (who we really rated) at #7. We could have also ended up with Pickett and Cockatoo...

 

[Strahany]

No way.
Richmond at least got serviceable years out of Tambling and a draft pick in return. Richmond, Dogs & Hawthorn all passed on Buddy once, he wasn't a consensus pick 1. Every club in the league except us & 1 other had Petracca at pick 1.
McCartin kicked 3 goals in a game once, and kicked 2 in a quarter on Rance, thats it. Thats all we got from him. Petracca has dominated some games and is slowly putting it together more consistently.
Was a shocking move by the club no matter which way you look at it.

How can it be a "shocking move by the club" when injuries are the method by which his career broke down?

Imagine you're choosing between two dishes at a restaurant; you pick one and another person at your table picks another. When they both come to the table, you can try both meals and come to a conclusion on whether you selected the right option as you're making an informed decision from a complete sample size. Now imagine that instead of being able to taste the food, the waiter drops it before it reaches your table - have you made the wrong choice because the waiter dropped it? Of course not. You've not made the right choice, either; the only logical conclusion you can come to is that you don't know. The reason you didn't eat the meal wasn't because it was bad; you didn't eat it because you never got the chance to eat it; much like we never got the chance to truly see Paddy in action.

Anyone pretending to "know" we made the right or wrong call with Paddy is lying or deluded because we simply didn't see enough of him to make that informed opinion.

 

[joop]

How can it be a "shocking move by the club" when injuries are the method by which his career broke down?

Imagine you're choosing between two dishes at a restaurant; you pick one and another person at your table picks another. When they both come to the table, you can try both meals and come to a conclusion on whether you selected the right option as you're making an informed decision from a complete sample size. Now imagine that instead of being able to taste the food, the waiter drops it before it reaches your table - have you made the wrong choice because the waiter dropped it? Of course not. You've not made the right choice, either; the only logical conclusion you can come to is that you don't know. The reason you didn't eat the meal wasn't because it was bad; you didn't eat it because you never got the chance to eat it; much like we never got the chance to truly see Paddy in action.

Anyone pretending to "know" we made the right or wrong call with Paddy is lying or deluded because we simply didn't see enough of him to make that informed opinion.

Even when he wasn't injured Paddy was no good. There were huge question marks about how he would go in the AFL and Petracca was considered the best player in the draft after dominating in the Under 18s. Paddy was also injured in his junior days quite a bit so why take that risk.
Each to their own but I can't see how anyone can defend the pick.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Seriously?

We had Roo near the end, Bruce was a defender and Membrey still to play a game for us and unproven.

Where is all the revision that Petracca was a clear #1? Sure, most people had him at 1 but it was closer than is being represented here. McCartin was the right pick at the time. We needed a KPF and McCartin had shown enough to justify being a top 3 pick. We had pick 1 and took him.

What happened after that, nobody could see coming.

There was a serious trade in place for us to swap #1 and #21 for the Giants #3 and #6.The draft would have then gone - Petracca, Brayshaw, McCartin.

Once the Dees got pick 3 as compo for Frawley that deal was off the table because we couldn't get McCartin.

Had we done the deal we could have taken say peter Wright at #4 and Laverde (who we really rated) at #7. We could have also ended up with Pickett and Cockatoo...

"AFL clubs lining up to secure no. 1 draft pick for explosive...


www.heraldsun.com.au/.../0b86c6fcf660d8fb1e0bcabaf3ba8656
12/10/2014 · Christian Petracca is one of the best prospects in the national draft. Picture: Getty . St Kilda. AFL clubs lining up to secure no. 1 draft pick for explosive midfielder Christian Petracca ..."


"AFL Draft Pick Me: Christian Petracca has AFL-ready body and is...


www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-draft-pick-me-christian...
20/11/2014 · AFL Draft Pick Me: Christian Petracca has AFL-ready body and is set to be the No.1 draft pick IT was the day AFL recruiters from every club wandered into Visy Park for a final glimpse at last year’s draft class — but Christian Petracca had other ideas."

"Christian Petracca has nose in front in open race for No.1 draft...


www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/christian-petracca-has-nose-in...
4/10/2014 · Christian Petracca has nose in front in open race for No.1 draft pick. By Emma Quayle. October 4, 2014 — 4.00pm. Normal text size Larger text size Very large text size. So. Do we have a No. 1 ...

• Author: Emma Quayle"

"2014 Draft Profile: Christian Petracca - Aussie Rules Draft...


afl.draftcentral.com.au/2014/06/24/2014-draft-profile...
24/06/2014 · Talent wise, Petracca is worthy of a top five pick, and on output, he’s number one. He’s a strong bodied forward-cum-midfielder, but to pigeon hole him as one or the other is to misjudge him."

There's 4 that rate him highly....

 

[crasha301]

It really doesn't matter how we got here because here we are and our #1 pick was a bust! Simple as that.

We could have selected just about any other player in the top 15 and got a better return.

It sucks, it would suck more for paddy.

As stated earlier I try and look at Roma as our #1 pick and paddy the rookie that didn't work out.





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[Armitage2Riewoldt]

2014 draft is a massive bust anyway:



1 Bust
2 Taken 6 years still under achieving
3 Had one good year, has concussion issues also
4 bust
5 Gun but absolute head case
6 GOP with injury issues
7 bust
8 GOP
9 probs end up top 5 but was off limits anyway
10 massive injury issues, quickly heading towards a bust
11 good pick but hardly a world beater
12 bust
13 decent player - helps that they turned him into pick 2
14 gun but injury issues
15 bust
16 still yet to really do anything for north
17 GOP
18 gun that would have gone pick 2 (although tbh seems to be coasting at this point)
19 bust
20 GOP

I mean you could extend that to 25 and you get 4 more busts (Goddard, Dmac, Mckenna, Nielson) and probably a top 10 of the draft in Steele.

What's a redraft look like?

But compare it to the 2013 draft and there's a lot less B&F's, AA's and top 3 finish in the Coleman's

 

[ScrappyDo]

Can this please stop now???

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

"AFL clubs lining up to secure no. 1 draft pick for explosive...


www.heraldsun.com.au/.../0b86c6fcf660d8fb1e0bcabaf3ba8656
12/10/2014 · Christian Petracca is one of the best prospects in the national draft. Picture: Getty . St Kilda. AFL clubs lining up to secure no. 1 draft pick for explosive midfielder Christian Petracca ..."


"AFL Draft Pick Me: Christian Petracca has AFL-ready body and is...


www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-draft-pick-me-christian...
20/11/2014 · AFL Draft Pick Me: Christian Petracca has AFL-ready body and is set to be the No.1 draft pick IT was the day AFL recruiters from every club wandered into Visy Park for a final glimpse at last year’s draft class — but Christian Petracca had other ideas."

"Christian Petracca has nose in front in open race for No.1 draft...


www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/christian-petracca-has-nose-in...
4/10/2014 · Christian Petracca has nose in front in open race for No.1 draft pick. By Emma Quayle. October 4, 2014 — 4.00pm. Normal text size Larger text size Very large text size. So. Do we have a No. 1 ...

• Author: Emma Quayle"

"2014 Draft Profile: Christian Petracca - Aussie Rules Draft...


afl.draftcentral.com.au/2014/06/24/2014-draft-profile...
24/06/2014 · Talent wise, Petracca is worthy of a top five pick, and on output, he’s number one. He’s a strong bodied forward-cum-midfielder, but to pigeon hole him as one or the other is to misjudge him."

There's 4 that rate him highly....

That's all great BUT as others have posted we were in year 2 of the rebuild and had just drafted a half forward/mid the year before (JB). Our tall forward cupboard was bare and Paddy was a consensus top 3 pick.

It wasn't a stretch to take him at #1 no matter what anyone says. Especially considering where our list was and the type of player that Petracca was/is.

 

[Strahany]

Even when he wasn't injured Paddy was no good. There were huge question marks about how he would go in the AFL and Petracca was considered the best player in the draft after dominating in the Under 18s. Paddy was also injured in his junior days quite a bit so why take that risk.
Each to their own but I can't see how anyone can defend the pick.

He played THIRTY-FIVE games. How many players can dominate within their first 35 games, let alone a KPF? Factor in the atrocious ball movement and sub-standard midfield group, and it's amazing he performed at all. That's before mentioning he finished how many games taken out due to injury? I believe it was 4 or 5, off the top of my head.

You seem to also be implying some kind of relevancy between any injuries during his TAC Cup days and his injuries in the red white and black. If this was a problematic soft tissue injury or recurrently unstable ankle, for example, then of course that would be a silly risk, as these injuries could re-present in the AFL. But Paddy didn't have this issue - each concussion is an isolated acute risk (with some exception, based on Paddy's baseline-testing-fudging which would have muddied the waters and seems to have linked successive concussions together).