2021 Formula One Season: Championship Decider Abu Dhabi - Verstappen Wins in a Controversial Race! 🏆 🍾

[BIRDBRAIN]

Haas.

Well they've been working on their 2022 car for years so who knows haha.

 

[BC9_]

Well they've been working on their 2022 car for years so who knows haha.

They might reach the high peaks of 17th

 

[drd23]

And just to rub salt into the wound….

Damage from Verstappen clash would have forced Hamilton DNF without red flag, say Mercedes | Formula 1®

Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen’s controversial contact on Lap 1 of the British Grand Prix garnered plenty of headlines in the aftermath of the race. But according to Mercedes, Hamilton’s eventual victory wouldn’t have been possible without the resultant red flag from that crash, after the...

www.formula1.com

I don't understand how a cracked rim would result in a DNF - you change the wheel and you've no longer got a cracked rim. That seems like an attempt at myth-making to make the win seem more incredible than anything else imo

 

[DamoESP]

I don't understand how a cracked rim would result in a DNF - you change the wheel and you've no longer got a cracked rim. That seems like an attempt at myth-making to make the win seem more incredible than anything else imo

Yeah well the F1 and Merc media teams have already been pumping out how much of an "against the odds" win it was for HAM , it wouldnt surprise me if this is just another fluff piece to push that agenda. And to gloss over the fact HAM took out his championship rival and got away with it.

 

[skam85]

Apples, meet oranges. You're the same type of fruit right?

View attachment 1181554

Bang on. The difference there is that corner has a braking zone. Copse is flat.

 

[skam85]

Unfortunately I think Verstappens aggression is going to be his biggest strength and his most exploitable weakness throughout his career.

For every brilliant overtake, there are going to be races like Silverstone 2021, Sao Paolo 2018 (Ocon blue flags crash), Baku 2019 (Crash with Ricciardo) where he unnessecerily has a DNF through incidents he could have avoided (yes, I still think Lewis was at fault yesterday but Max really could have yielded to avoid contact and battle on through the GP)

And on the other side of the coin, Hamilton has now hit the right rear of a Red Bull three times in the last couple of seasons. He's also binned it in Imola and Baku this season.
Don't like living in the past too much, but across his career there was the 2011 incidents with Massa, the incidents with Rosberg in their time together. Not all his fault but a common theme.

The cynic in me says that the only reason why there haven't been more Hamilton incidents in recent years is because he has been unchallenged.

Now Max has come along in what seems to be a quicker car, and Hamilton has made two mistakes in the first part of the season. Three if you include Silverstone.

Irrespective of the semantics of who was at fault etc in UK, this season got a whole lot spicier and I'm expecting more accidents between these two... and hopefully more mistakes by Sir Lewis

 

[Skull Face]

Bang on. The difference there is that corner has a braking zone. Copse is flat.

Flat from where Max was, Lewis would have to brake to get around it from the angle he was coming in from and he didn't which is why the accident would have occurred even if max left more room.

Even after hitting Max and slowing down dramatically he still ran wide on the exit, it was a turn he was never ever making from the moment he decided to take it at that speed.

 

[Skull Face]

And on the other side of the coin, Hamilton has now hit the right rear of a Red Bull three times in the last couple of seasons. He's also binned it in Imola and Baku this season.
Don't like living in the past too much, but across his career there was the 2011 incidents with Massa, the incidents with Rosberg in their time together. Not all his fault but a common theme.

The cynic in me says that the only reason why there haven't been more Hamilton incidents in recent years is because he has been unchallenged.

Now Max has come along in what seems to be a quicker car, and Hamilton has made two mistakes in the first part of the season. Three if you include Silverstone.

Irrespective of the semantics of who was at fault etc in UK, this season got a whole lot spicier and I'm expecting more accidents between these two... and hopefully more mistakes by Sir Lewis

Albon had it spot on, he is a sore loser and throws the toys out of the cot when things aren't going his way.

 

[skam85]

Flat from where Max was, Lewis would have to brake to get around it from the angle he was coming in from and he didn't which is why the accident would have occurred even if max left more room.

Even after hitting Max and slowing down dramatically he still ran wide on the exit, it was a turn he was never ever making from the moment he decided to take it at that speed.

Correct. It's one thing putting a wheel up, trying the inside etc on a corner with a proper braking zone. It's another tipping someone into the wall on a corner that is typically taken flat.

 

[Admiral Byng]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. You want wheel to wheel racing? Crashes will happen from time to time even between the best drivers because they are on the limit. I thought it was a racing incident, the stewards decided it was more Hamilton's fault than Max, so they gave a penalty. As much as we all dislike Hamilton personally, he was still good enough to get back to the front and win the race, this is because he is such a great driver, He is not a good driver in a great car, he is a great driver in a great car. Bottas couldn't keep up with Charles in the same car, let alone catch him. Even though I dislike the guy I respect his ability.

You can't base penalties on personalities. You can't hand Lewis a harsher than normal penalty just for being Lewis. Talking of giving out harsher penalties so he can't win the race is a bit harsh IMHO. The penalty applied was reasonable and in line with what anyone else would have got. If it had been Russell punting off Stroll (just as an example) at the same corner it would have got the same penalty but with barely a mention. You can't make up harsher penalties on the spot because of who was involved.

 

[lionbear]

The Who's better out of Hamilton Vs Schumacher debate has gone on for many years

The one major argument Hamilton fans want to use is Schumacher would try take out the opposition when he wasn't in the fastest car.

For me on Sunday night, he knew he had to either take the lead there and then or the race was over, thus why the risk he took was so large, her got nothing in terms on penalty and got the win. what was the worse result, he took both cars out and didn't fall behind any further in the championship.

But for me now, Hamilton has shown that he will do exactly what Schumacher and even Senna before him to win a race, so what's the next argument to say Hamilton is clearly a better driver than Schumacher now?

 

[skam85]

The Who's better out of Hamilton Vs Schumacher debate has gone on for many years

The one major argument Hamilton fans want to use is Schumacher would try take out the opposition when he wasn't in the fastest car.

For me on Sunday night, he knew he had to either take the lead there and then or the race was over, thus why the risk he took was so large, her got nothing in terms on penalty and got the win. what was the worse result, he took both cars out and didn't fall behind any further in the championship.

But for me now, Hamilton has shown that he will do exactly what Schumacher and even Senna before him to win a race, so what's the next argument to say Hamilton is clearly a better driver than Schumacher now?

One key difference for me will always be that everything else aside, Hamilton has always had a race-winning car at his disposal. Most often, title contending cars too.
Schumacher did not always, and he was a huge catalyst in building that Ferrari juggernaut. Everything has just fallen into Hamilton's lap. He's had his whole F1 career on a silver platter.

 

[Aussie pie]

Ok so I’ll just first say that I don’t know what has been said about Ham on social media and considering what happened earlier in the week re soccer players in England it’s terrible and absolutely not on but it always seems Lewis likes to blame others and play the victim. This is why a lot of people don’t like him. Just once is like him to say “yeah I attacked the corner and messed it up, my bad but this is F1 and I’m fighting for the championship so I’ll take my wack and move on.” It’d be good if he didn’t act like such a tool also but I guess you can’t help who you are.

I remember Seb being very much like that and Michael. They didn’t blame others they attacked the race and others and when they stuffed up didn’t go blame culture wars or other things.

 

[Bedi]

And on the other side of the coin, Hamilton has now hit the right rear of a Red Bull three times in the last couple of seasons. He's also binned it in Imola and Baku this season.
Don't like living in the past too much, but across his career there was the 2011 incidents with Massa, the incidents with Rosberg in their time together. Not all his fault but a common theme.

The cynic in me says that the only reason why there haven't been more Hamilton incidents in recent years is because he has been unchallenged.

Now Max has come along in what seems to be a quicker car, and Hamilton has made two mistakes in the first part of the season. Three if you include Silverstone.

Irrespective of the semantics of who was at fault etc in UK, this season got a whole lot spicier and I'm expecting more accidents between these two... and hopefully more mistakes by Sir Lewis

In terms of dirty driving, he's not even close to being in the same league as Senna and Schumacher. The stuff they pulled was an utter disgrace. But Hamilton's driven by that same will to win. So it def helps to be bit of a prick if you want to succeed in this caper

 

[Black_White]

I don't understand how a cracked rim would result in a DNF - you change the wheel and you've no longer got a cracked rim. That seems like an attempt at myth-making to make the win seem more incredible than anything else imo

Wouldn’t a stop be longer because you would serve the 10 second penalty as well?
And the imperative of having to do the tyre change would have still left you with that penalty if it hadn’t been applied that early?
I think the ability to do repairs under the red is unfair. If you need to repair you stay in pit lane and when the restart lights go out the repairs are started.

 

[Forward Press]

In terms of dirty driving, he's not even close to being in the same league as Senna and Schumacher. The stuff they pulled was an utter disgrace. But Hamilton's driven by that same will to win. So it def helps to be bit of a prick if you want to succeed in this caper

There are a lot of short memories in here.

Schumacher got a heavy penalty for intentionally squeezing Barrichello (when he was at Williams) into a wall. He also of course got disqualified from a whole season for his attempt to crash out Villeneuve. It is arguable Schumacher also intentionally crashed out Damon Hill in Adelaide. Hamilton has copped a few penalties - deservedly - but he has a long way to go before rivalling Schumacher in the utter campaigner stakes.

Senna, I didn't see enough of him to comment with any authority but from what I've read he was in the same league - he is also the source of the oft-repeated quote 'if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver'. Senna vs Prost doesn't really need further elaboration.

There's no real 'nice guys' in F1 - even Ricciardo. All are driven by the will to win and to do that you do have to drive like a prick when you need to.

 

[darth_timon]

There are a lot of short memories in here.

Schumacher got a heavy penalty for intentionally squeezing Barrichello (when he was at Williams) into a wall. He also of course got disqualified for his attempt to crash out Villeneuve. Hamilton has copped a few penalties - deservedly - but he has a long way to go before rivalling Schumacher in the utter campaigner stakes.

Senna, I didn't see enough of him to comment with any authority but from what I've read he was in the same league - he is also the source of the oft-repeated quote 'if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver'.

There's no real 'nice guys' in F1 - even Ricciardo. All are driven by the will to win and to do that you do have to drive with aggression.

Quite a few of the romanticised stars of the past did some highly dubious things in an F1 car. Senna took out Prost deliberately, at speed, and admitted to it. His actions, as justified as he felt them to be, were utterly wrong - and I say that as someone who considers Senna to be one of the greatest of all time.

He was seeking vengeance for the events of the 89 Japanese GP, where it can be argued Prost deliberately turned into Senna (albeit not at high speed) in a collision that ultimately settled the title.

There are many incidents at high speed between highly competitive and committed racing drivers, and the vast majority of them are 'heat of the moment'. They're frantic, not calculated. They're clumsy, not planned. I don't believe for one second that Hamilton would deliberately try to take another driver.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

 

[lionbear]

One key difference for me will always be that everything else aside, Hamilton has always had a race-winning car at his disposal. Most often, title contending cars too.
Schumacher did not always, and he was a huge catalyst in building that Ferrari juggernaut. Everything has just fallen into Hamilton's lap. He's had his whole F1 career on a silver platter.

I think people forget to that Schumacher helped set up Mercedes and Hamilton reaped the rewards of his hard work with the development when he came back to help them set up their own team after providing engines only.

 

[yaco55]

Danny Ric being able to pretty much match times with Lando throughout qualifying is huge for him and hopefully he can turn transfer that pace into the race.

As much as Sky's wankfest over Russell has been annoying, seeing him do that lap with just him on track and the crowd cheering him on the whole way around was awesome.

The Sky wankfest over Russell would be understandable if he actually could get a point for Williams in the Driver's championship.

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

The rewards for sticking your opponent in the wall have never been greater. Not only does Max get a DNF but there's €750K damage to repair in a year of cost caps which will hamstring RB's development of either this years car or next years and then there's possible damage to the engine so maybe a near future penalty for having to change engines. This move will pay off for Mercedes for the rest of this year at least. Hambone honestly is the luckiest prick I've ever seen in F1 he can step in dog s**t and find diamonds every time.

 

[Sigwald]

Flat from where Max was, Lewis would have to brake to get around it from the angle he was coming in from and he didn't which is why the accident would have occurred even if max left more room.

Even after hitting Max and slowing down dramatically he still ran wide on the exit, it was a turn he was never ever making from the moment he decided to take it at that speed.

Well, let's have a look at this "new" data that Red Bull are throwing around, because it tells a bit of a different story...



First of all, it shows how strong the tow was along the straight. The Merc was set up for higher top end speed anyway, but Lewis reaching 315 was even higher than his Qualifying run where he maxed at 307. And before anyone starts on how that somehow "proves" he wasn't going to make the corner, know that racing in Qualifying is about exit-speed more often than entry, during a wheel-to-wheel it's common to sacrifice exit speed, and therefor lap time, if you can gain a position. And looking at how the Merc was all over the back of the Red Bull earlier in the lap, and knowing that it was basically the last spot where he could realistically overtake (because despite Horner saying otherwise overtakes have been made at Copse), I think it's fair to say that Lewis's top speed is high, but not ridiculously so.

Max has seen him, is forcing him to the outside, like he did (with great success) in the sprint race, but then Lewis sells a magnificent dummy, and before Max can properly protect the inside the Mercedes is halfway alongside the Red Bull, squeezed up against the wall. They both lift for Copse, Max corrects momentarily when he realises Lewis has not backed out of it (great onboard footage), but then turns in hard towards the apex anyway.

This is a thing that Max has been doing for years now, like many great drivers before him, he's proud of it, and everyone knows about it: he does not yield. Not even when the car pulling alongside is someone trying to unlap himself. There are many quotes of different drivers on how they take extra care when racing Max. It's an art in oneupmanship and intimidation to put your car in a position where there will be contact unless the other backs out if it, and make it work so many times. Senna had a similar philosophy. And it's been working on Lewis for the whole season, in Portimao, in Spain, in the Sprint race, even earlier in that lap there are two moments where Lewis backs out to avoid contact. Max just does not yield.

So when Max turns in, there's not much Lewis can do at the speed he's going, he's committed (or as Alonso says, he can't just vanish). So he slams on the brakes. To make the corner, but also because the space that Max left him is diminishing quickly.

Does he miss the apex? Maybe, he has taken that corner wider than most the whole weekend (except for his go at Leclerc), and when they both entered the room was there. The stewards think he missed it at least, but don't hold him fully responsible, because I assume that's what the 10s penalty is based on. I don't think it's by much, however. Because despite "missing" that apex, and despite the jolt his steering gets upon impact, he does still make the corner. And that's why I also think the idea that he didn't brake (the telemetry showed he clearly did) and that he wasn't going to make the corner anyway are overreactions by Red Bull.

And why I think it was a text book racing incident. When you never yield, this stuff will happen if the other is not yielding either. If Max had backed out in Brazil and let Ocon go (It was dumb by the Frenchman, but why fight him when you've got everything to lose?) he would have won that Grand Prix. Similarly, if Max had given more room (again he has more to lose) Hamilton may (or may not) have made the corner, but the Red Bull is clearly the faster car at the moment, so it may well have cost him another win. When you never yield, it will at times cost you. And knowing the Verstappens, he's not going to change, so chances are it will happen again somewhere in the future.

Also, just a quick note on the comparison with the Albon-collisions. Despite the onboard matching up nicely, they are completely different circumstances.

TLR: Racing incident, no malice or intent on either driver; two cars, when going for the same bit of road and neither driver backing out, will collide.

 

[Supersuns]

Something that has been lost in all of the Max/Ham debate, is that Vettel stayed back after the GP to help pick up trash left behind by spectators in the stands etc



View attachment 1181472

The older Seb gets the more and more I like him

 

[royboy2]

(because despite Horner saying otherwise overtakes have been made at Copse)

For memory, I think Lewis made 3 on raceday

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The way Horner and Marko have carried on is disappointing. The whole 'stick up a wheel up the inside of Copse' narrative is deliberately misleading. He was almost alongside and he yielded more than Max did to make that corner, thus the front to rear contact.

It was nowhere near the reckless move they are making it out to be and the whole consulting lawyers to get Hamilton suspended spiel is massive sooking. Helmut is such a ******* Helmet. Honestly, he's always been a prat.

I used to really like Horner. Used to.

 

[lionbear]

The way Horner and Marko have carried on is disappointing. The whole 'stick up a wheel up the inside of Copse' narrative is deliberately misleading. He was almost alongside and he yielded more than Max did to make that corner, thus the front to rear contact.

It was nowhere near the reckless move they are making it out to be and the whole consulting lawyers to get Hamilton suspended spiel is massive sooking. Helmut is such a ******* Helmet. Honestly, he's always been a prat.

I used to really like Horner. Used to.

Never been a big fan of Marko, especially after the way he has treated both Webber and Dan.

I do think the accident is Lewis's fault, he was never next to Max and if I could see that on the night, I don't know how he thought that. He needed to yield and he didn't.

I thought the penalty was too light, it needed to be a stop and go.

But that was it and move on, they don't call Max Crashstappin for no reason, and I think for the first time he has been challenged by another driver and it will be interesting to see what he does next time in the same situation.

Lewis has shown he is like Schumacher and Senna before him, its not a bad thing, but for the first time he is challenged in a world championship race and he has stuck a wheel where it shouldn't be and caused an accident.

As for Horner, I actually like his carry on, if I am a formula 1 driver its good to know that Team leader will back me and stand up for me no matter what.