List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

Saintos The ITK · Aug 19, 2021

Pretty much a rule of thumb that if Collingwood or Essendon let a player go then something is wrong with them and buyer beware. Have we learned that yet???

gringo2011 · Aug 19, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
Well do we just keep on being a middling team and cruise along till these guys all demand selection, or do we put faith in talent and rip the band-aid off?

I disagree on your assessment of Hunter, he's firmly best 22 regardless of where they put him.

Coffield is a capable intercepting HB but with injury and "development" they want him to play more 1 on 1 accountable which he's not good at. Used to his strengths he's already a weapon.

Byrnes is already good enough to run with each week.

Bytel has ripped a few VFL games apart now and as many have noted probably can't be selected with Dunny, but indicators are that he's on the cusp.

And what do we do with our FRDP this year? Stick him at Sandy till he's getting 30 possessions every week or chuck him in the seniors asap?

When do we flick the switch gringo? 2023? 2024? or never?

And yes, it's a battle cry. It's time to charge out of the trenches come what may.

We have done a huge rebuild in the last few years. 3/4 of the list got the flick and more will be gone this year. We need to play players together and hope that the youth playing improve and players under them push best 22 players out. 2 or 3 kids should be in most sides even top of the ladder ones. Sometimes your youth just aren't up to it and only the best are worth pushing up.

Coffield and Clark aren't pushing players out because they aren't performing. Rewarding them for being lazy sounds like a perfect plan for success. How could that go wrong? All the guys you mention are good enough to be in the side but none of them are pushing to be our best players at the moment apart from King. You don't want to flick the switch you want to kick them for being disappointing.

Half the nuffies demanding we delist half the side blamed injury for not making finals and now want to make that a permanent lack of depth.

BrutThough · Aug 19, 2021

Winmar2Lockett said:
I suppose the question is whether Dunstan & Seb are happy running around at Sandy then. I have little doubt that both Byrnes & Bytel will go past them at a rate of knots once they get enough games under their belts.

Another question is whether the club would rather have two 18 year olds running around at Sandy instead of Dunstan & Seb. Which is probably the most important question that needs answering whilst we all fight amongst ourselves.

The 18-year old question also depends on how many other list changes we make. And what range of the draft we would end u having.

I'm fine with letting Dunstan go. Think it is in the best interest of both parties. We have the players to replace him and his form in the 2nd half of the year has turned his return from nothing into a potentially useable pick.

Ross is a more interesting one. Not the end of the world if he lost him but if the choice was between him or a fresh draftee from where the compo pick is likely be, I would prefer Ross. He is better than he gets credit for and is still very much a best 22 player. I think the rate of improvement Byrnes and Bytel would need to to have would be extremely high for them to pass Ross as a player next year.

gringo2011 · Aug 19, 2021

joydivision22 said:
It’s pretty clear I think Ross is very over rated. I’ll stick to that but I think you’ve missed my sentiment and focusing on just one aspect of my remarks.

I often appreciate what you’ve got to say and I don’t intend on making enemies (lol) but I would suggest that to equate Ross to pendles and Oliver would go some way to losing ones credibility, especially if only based on brownlow votes as a measure.

Did I say that did I? I think I just pointed out where the umpires voted him. And I would think that the other evidence is the same it's not some loser on BF with an opinion, it's an internal club and external rating.

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

SAINTS TARGET SWANS BIG MAN

St Kilda has reportedly set its sights on Swans tall Hayden McLean

Rowan Marshall has emerged as a star of the future for the Saints who, according to AFL.com, are looking to form a long term ruck partnership.

McLean is off contract at the end of the year and could provide support to Marshall while also an option to play forward.

The 22-year-old is one of a number of Swans players coming off contract as they look to manage a tightening salary cap.

Ephemeral Hope · Aug 19, 2021

Saintos The ITK said:
Pretty much a rule of thumb that if Collingwood or Essendon let a player go then something is wrong with them and buyer beware. Have we learned that yet???

Stephenson been a good get for north. With how good Sharman is running up to support the midfield, creating link up, quick handballs and nice kicks into the 50. Could he do what Stephenson does and play bursts in the midfield

Ekomaira · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
SAINTS TARGET SWANS BIG MAN

St Kilda has reportedly set its sights on Swans tall Hayden McLean

Rowan Marshall has emerged as a star of the future for the Saints who, according to AFL.com, are looking to form a long term ruck partnership.

McLean is off contract at the end of the year and could provide support to Marshall while also an option to play forward.

The 22-year-old is one of a number of Swans players coming off contract as they look to manage a tightening salary cap.

don't think I've ever seen him play

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

Ekomaira said:
don't think I've ever seen him play

Hayden McLean

#41 Sydney Swans

Age: 22yr 6mth Games: 19 Born: January 20, 1999 Origin: Sandringham

Height: 197cm Weight: 93kg Position: Forward
● Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game





●		18 disps (11 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks, 6 tackles and a goal in Rd 9 30-pt win over Collingwood at the SCG (15 May 2021)

[TD valign="top"]Season Highlights[/TD]

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
Hayden McLean

#41 Sydney Swans

Age: 22yr 6mth Games: 19 Born: January 20, 1999 Origin: Sandringham

Height: 197cm Weight: 93kg Position: Forward
● Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game

● 18 disps (11 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks, 6 tackles and a goal in Rd 9 30-pt win over Collingwood at the SCG (15 May 2021)

[TD valign="top"]Season Highlights[/TD]

Better than what McKernan and Hunter produced this year and and only 22 has upside , plays forward / ruck , by the looks the recruiting team like him.

Ekomaira · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
Hayden McLean

#41 Sydney Swans

Age: 22yr 6mth Games: 19 Born: January 20, 1999 Origin: Sandringham

Height: 197cm Weight: 93kg Position: Forward
● Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game

● 18 disps (11 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks, 6 tackles and a goal in Rd 9 30-pt win over Collingwood at the SCG (15 May 2021)

[TD valign="top"]Season Highlights[/TD]

couple of nice highlights in there

DarkSaint · Aug 19, 2021

One thing that annoys me when people say that Billings will be a better player in a better side or with better players around him.

That statement is all well and good when he was 21/22. However HE should be a player at the age of 26/27 that should be making players around him better not the other way around.

This is one of the main reason why I'm happy to let him go as he simply doesn't drive the team forward in terms of performances and leadership. He has had enough time and chances. Take a massive pay cut or leave. Would be happy with a 2nd round pick.

Decent players in the 2nd round if the recruiting team are up for it.

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

DarkSaint said:
One thing that annoys me when people say that Billings will be a better player in a better side or with better players around him.

That statement is all well and good when he was 21/22. However HE should be a player at the age of 26/27 that should be making players around him better not the other way around.

This is one of the main reason why I'm happy to let him go as he simply doesn't drive the team forward in terms of performances and leadership. He has had enough time and chances. Take a massive pay cut or leave. Would be happy with a 2nd round pick.

Decent players in the 2nd round if the recruiting team are up for it.

It comes down to if we are willing to pay for a Porshe but really it's only a Hyundai.

joydivision22 · Aug 19, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Did I say that did I? I think I just pointed out where the umpires voted him. And I would think that the other evidence is the same it's not some loser on BF with an opinion, it's an internal club and external rating.

I’ve got to say I was hoping for a more sophisticated discussion surrounding list management strategy namely value for money/output. However, I’ll settle for a childish to and fro over a player our own management has considered superfluous.

Seb Ross winning two Trevor barkers at very low ebb is not much to write home about and he did have a good season or two when he was our number one mid accumulating but that was his peak think he was 25/26 then. Sure he polled well in brownlow in the games we won as there was seriously no one else. Astonishing to think that his inflated brownlow finish is being considered now as currency some years later, when his form can only decline from here.

His flaws include:

- kicking. In all forms. Despite the famous swim between the flags line, he has failed to do so often coughing it up with imprecise short passes and unable to place the ball to adv side when kicking long.
- unable to pass inside 50
- because he cannot pass inside 50, he often takes the ‘responsibility’ of crossing 50 and shooting for goal which he hits roughly 1/8 at a guess. Obviously not ideal even though the one looks great.
- not doing his job at times when asked to play a defensive role. Standing attacking side of Tim Kelly at stoppages in Q4
- when he takes a mark, he spends 5-6 seconds standing or walking slowly backwards of the mark while scanning for options. Seriously detrimental to team flow and he has done this for years. Maybe more of an indictment on our coaching staff but whatever.
- seems to be a bigger than the club kindve guy with reference to his go home stuff this year which impressed no one in club land.

To be fair he also has qualities which include:
- running power
- experience and leadership (apparently)
- can be selected in a couple of different roles

That’s our guy who we pay a bucketload to have on our list.

For me, thanks for time Seb and Good luck with your future endeavors.

CaptainRisky · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
It comes down to if we are willing to pay for a Porshe but really it's only a Hyundai.

You sound like Gringo

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

Over Jack Billings career he averages around 20 touches a game , he had a very good year 2019 where he averaged 25 and that was the year he re-signed on the big dollars - why is that once this guys sign there big money contracts they then perform average.

Career Season Averages

Year	Team	GM	K	H	D	M	G	B	T	HO	FF	FA	GA	I50	CL	CG	R50	BL
2021	Saints	18	12.1	7.9	20.0	6.3	0.8	0.8	1.9	0	0.8	0.6	0.5	3.2	1.0	2.3	1.7
2020	Saints	19	10.8	7.7	18.6	4.1	0.6	0.3	2.5	0	0.7	0.3	0.3	2.6	1.8	2.1	1.4	0.12
2019	Saints	22	14.4	11.4	25.7	6.0	0.6	0.5	3.0	0	0.6	0.6	0.5	3.7	2.1	3.1	2.7	0.50
2018	Saints	21	10.9	10.9	21.9	4.8	0.7	0.9	2.8	0	0.9	0.3	1.1	4.2	0.7	2.3	0.9	0.10
2017	Saints	22	11.6	11.6	23.1	5.5	1.1	1.6	3.1	0	0.7	0.3	1.0	4.0	1.4	2.2	1.1	0.50
2016	Saints	17	10.7	9.5	20.2	4.2	0.3	0.7	3.3	0.2	0.9	0.5	0.6	3.0	1.4	2.2	1.6	0.06
2015	Saints	9	11.1	9.2	20.3	4.4	0.8	0.7	3.1	0	1.2	0	0.7	3.6	1.7	1.2	1.4	0.22
2014	Saints	16	9.3	5.2	14.6	4.8	0.9	0.9	1.8	0	1.1	0	0.8	2.9	0.4	1.2	0.8	0.06
Career	144	11.5	9.4	20.9	5.1	0.7	0.8	2.7	0	0.8	0.3	0.7	3.4	1.3	2.2	1.5	0.24

Premium · Aug 19, 2021

joydivision22 said:
I’ve got to say I was hoping for a more sophisticated discussion surrounding list management strategy namely value for money/output. However, I’ll settle for a childish to and fro over a player our own management has considered superfluous.

Seb Ross winning two Trevor barkers at very low ebb is not much to write home about and he did have a good season or two when he was our number one mid accumulating but that was his peak think he was 25/26 then. Sure he polled well in brownlow in the games we won as there was seriously no one else. Astonishing to think that his inflated brownlow finish is being considered now as currency some years later, when his form can only decline from here.

His flaws include:

- kicking. In all forms. Despite the famous swim between the flags line, he has failed to do so often coughing it up with imprecise short passes and unable to place the ball to adv side when kicking long.
- unable to pass inside 50
- because he cannot pass inside 50, he often takes the ‘responsibility’ of crossing 50 and shooting for goal which he hits roughly 1/8 at a guess. Obviously not ideal even though the one looks great.
- not doing his job at times when asked to play a defensive role. Standing attacking side of Tim Kelly at stoppages in Q4
- when he takes a mark, he spends 5-6 seconds standing or walking slowly backwards of the mark while scanning for options. Seriously detrimental to team flow and he has done this for years. Maybe more of an indictment on our coaching staff but whatever.
- seems to be a bigger than the club kindve guy with reference to his go home stuff this year which impressed no one in club land.

To be fair he also has qualities which include:
- running power
- experience and leadership (apparently)
- can be selected in a couple of different roles

That’s our guy who we pay a bucketload to have on our list.

For me, thanks for time Seb and Good luck with your future endeavors.

Seb Ross was the best mid in a very average side , we need a good midfield and even Jones has by far surpassed Ross and having Crouch , Steele in the middle we really need to get the youth time through the midfield and playing Ross instead of Gresham , Clark , Bytel , Byrne.
Keep him for depth but he would know he will battle to hold his spot is a stronger 22 and it the reason he is looking else where and we really can't afford to hide him in another position - time to get rid of the Richo click / Geary / Ross / Billings / Newnes

kernelT · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
Over Jack Billings career he averages around 20 touches a game , he had a very good year 2019 where he averaged 25 and that was the year he re-signed on the big dollars - why is that once this guys sign there big money contracts they then perform average.

Career Season Averages

Year Team GM K H D M G B T HO FF FA GA I50 CL CG R50 BL
2021
Saints
18
12.1
7.9
20.0
6.3
0.8
0.8
1.9
0
0.8
0.6
0.5
3.2
1.0
2.3
1.7

2020
Saints
19
10.8
7.7
18.6
4.1
0.6
0.3
2.5
0
0.7
0.3
0.3
2.6
1.8
2.1
1.4
0.12
2019
Saints
22
14.4
11.4
25.7
6.0
0.6
0.5
3.0
0
0.6
0.6
0.5
3.7
2.1
3.1
2.7
0.50
2018
Saints
21
10.9
10.9
21.9
4.8
0.7
0.9
2.8
0
0.9
0.3
1.1
4.2
0.7
2.3
0.9
0.10
2017
Saints
22
11.6
11.6
23.1
5.5
1.1
1.6
3.1
0
0.7
0.3
1.0
4.0
1.4
2.2
1.1
0.50
2016
Saints
17
10.7
9.5
20.2
4.2
0.3
0.7
3.3
0.2
0.9
0.5
0.6
3.0
1.4
2.2
1.6
0.06
2015
Saints
9
11.1
9.2
20.3
4.4
0.8
0.7
3.1
0
1.2
0
0.7
3.6
1.7
1.2
1.4
0.22
2014
Saints
16
9.3
5.2
14.6
4.8
0.9
0.9
1.8
0
1.1
0
0.8
2.9
0.4
1.2
0.8
0.06
Career
144
11.5
9.4
20.9
5.1
0.7
0.8
2.7
0
0.8
0.3
0.7
3.4
1.3
2.2
1.5
0.24

Who’s another wingman that gets 20+ and a goal that we can recruit for under 500k/year?

#gosaintas · Aug 19, 2021

kernelT said:
Who’s another wingman that gets 20+ and a goal that we can recruit for under 500k/year?

we pay him >700k
for 400 - 500 we keep him. Anything more we say goodbye and take the compo

gringo2011 · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
Better than what McKernan and Hunter produced this year and and only 22 has upside , plays forward / ruck , by the looks the recruiting team like him.

He looked like a long term project when he was at Sandy but showed glimpses. He was not much of a ruckman even at VFL level but marking and game sense seemed good for a big guy. Probably similar to Marshall.

gringo2011 · Aug 19, 2021

joydivision22 said:
I’ve got to say I was hoping for a more sophisticated discussion surrounding list management strategy namely value for money/output. However, I’ll settle for a childish to and fro over a player our own management has considered superfluous.

Seb Ross winning two Trevor barkers at very low ebb is not much to write home about and he did have a good season or two when he was our number one mid accumulating but that was his peak think he was 25/26 then. Sure he polled well in brownlow in the games we won as there was seriously no one else. Astonishing to think that his inflated brownlow finish is being considered now as currency some years later, when his form can only decline from here.

His flaws include:

- kicking. In all forms. Despite the famous swim between the flags line, he has failed to do so often coughing it up with imprecise short passes and unable to place the ball to adv side when kicking long.
- unable to pass inside 50
- because he cannot pass inside 50, he often takes the ‘responsibility’ of crossing 50 and shooting for goal which he hits roughly 1/8 at a guess. Obviously not ideal even though the one looks great.
- not doing his job at times when asked to play a defensive role. Standing attacking side of Tim Kelly at stoppages in Q4
- when he takes a mark, he spends 5-6 seconds standing or walking slowly backwards of the mark while scanning for options. Seriously detrimental to team flow and he has done this for years. Maybe more of an indictment on our coaching staff but whatever.
- seems to be a bigger than the club kindve guy with reference to his go home stuff this year which impressed no one in club land.

To be fair he also has qualities which include:
- running power
- experience and leadership (apparently)
- can be selected in a couple of different roles

That’s our guy who we pay a bucketload to have on our list.

For me, thanks for time Seb and Good luck with your future endeavors.

If we are playing the too average to play for the Saints we'll only have a handful of players. We have to cull hard to live by your standards.

gringo2011 · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
It comes down to if we are willing to pay for a Porshe but really it's only a Hyundai.

Billings is a Camry or something that an old person would drive. A bit boring but is low maintenance and reliable. He won't get you a speeding ticket but it probably seems too much to pay for such a dull unit but pays it's self off in trouble free motoring.

Agreed, should talk the dealer down on price but you don't go to buy a Camry and expect to get it for the price of a Corolla either.

kernelT · Aug 19, 2021

#gosaintas said:
we pay him >700k
for 400 - 500 we keep him. Anything more we say goodbye and take the compo

I’m not talking about what he’s earnt in the past, I’m asking if we refuse to pay 500, who can we get for that money that will be a better player and how many picks would it cost?

sammm · Aug 19, 2021

Premium said:
Hayden McLean

#41 Sydney Swans

Age: 22yr 6mth Games: 19 Born: January 20, 1999 Origin: Sandringham

Height: 197cm Weight: 93kg Position: Forward
● Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game

● 18 disps (11 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks, 6 tackles and a goal in Rd 9 30-pt win over Collingwood at the SCG (15 May 2021)

[TD valign="top"]Season Highlights[/TD]

he was under the Saints noses and still didn't pick him up as a rookie.

Joffaboy · Aug 19, 2021

kernelT said:
Who’s another wingman that gets 20+ and a goal that we can recruit for under 500k/year?

Good point, he averages around 21 possessions a game. Was down in 2020 because of short qtrs and this year because he neededan injection in his foot to play every week after R5. Having had plantar fasciitis myself, I am amazed he could play at all.

For 500 large a year he is excellent value. Hope he resigns soon on that.

Joffaboy · Aug 19, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Billings is a Camry or something that an old person would drive. A bit boring but is low maintenance and reliable. He won't get you a speeding ticket but it probably seems too much to pay for such a dull unit but pays it's self off in trouble free motoring.

Agreed, should talk the dealer down on price but you don't go to buy a Camry and expect to get it for the price of a Corolla either.

Well the dealer shouldn't demand the cost of a Lexus for the Camry

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List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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