List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

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ScrappyDo · Jun 1, 2021

Not to agree of disagree with anyone, but I really don't get the point of discussing HBFs, though I can appreciate the club may have erred in this case.

The most pressing item, which should be at the top of our bitch list is where the hell do we find a Fullback?

Mowman · Jun 1, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
Not to agree of disagree with anyone, but I really don't get the point of discussing HBFs, though I can appreciate the club may have erred in this case.

The most pressing item, which should be at the top of our b*tch list is where the hell do we find a Fullback?

We got one
Frawley

KingsRansom · Jun 1, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
Not to agree of disagree with anyone, but I really don't get the point of discussing HBFs, though I can appreciate the club may have erred in this case.

The most pressing item, which should be at the top of our b*tch list

Mowman said:

We got one
Frawley

Click to expand...

Is the era of the stay at home fullback over? Is it more about intercept markers now??

LiterallyNobody · Jun 1, 2021

Fuuuuuuuck me.

will we ever get over the monumental loss that is Hind.

It’s not like we let a bloke walk to another club for absolute free who then won a flag against us the following year.

Not like we gave our first round draft pick the same year for a bloke who didn’t even play for the club.

It’s not like we got two consecutive first round picks wrong in 2013 and 2014 which people keep banging on about.

It’s not like we have a history of drafting spuds or inferior players (sometimes we get it right but that is the exception rather than the rule) or paying 800 or 900k for overrated or injured players.

No it’s the half back flanker who is having a stellar season being played in his correct position even though we’ve got a thousand of them which is going to hurt us the most. It’s because of him our season has fallen apart and we should’ve but didn’t have the foresight to predict injury to most of the good ones.

How could we be so blind?

Yawkey way · Jun 1, 2021

Mowman said:
He was always a running HBF, makes you laugh some will never admit we get things wrong

Yes he was and the posters bagging him were right he was doing nothing as a small forward.

On the flip side plenty were defending him asking why the hell he couldn’t get a run off halfback or on the wing where he had shown enough for us to draft him.

Can‘t see how anyone at the club looks good in this, questions for recruiting, coaching and list management.

ScrappyDo · Jun 1, 2021

KingsRansom said:
Is the era of the stay at home fullback over? Is it more about intercept markers now??

I agree, but they'd be brave or stupid to let that rest on Joyce and Clav.

My feeling is that the intercepting will be left to the likes of Highmore and Coff with Doogs better suited to CHB.

Pato, XXXX, Wilkie
Coff, Doogs, Highmore

This is what I think we will or should look like. Lots of intercepting power there..

Mowman · Jun 1, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
I agree, but they'd be brave or stupid to let that rest on Joyce and Clav.

My feeling is that the intercepting will be left to the likes of Highmore and Coff with Doogs better suited to CHB.

Pato, XXXX, Wilkie
Coff, Doogs, Highmore

This is what I think we will or should look like. Lots of intercepting power there..

Think we should at least try Joyce for the rest of the year at FB

Especially if we lose to the Swans

I thought his last game was OK before Frawley came in

ScrappyDo · Jun 1, 2021

Mowman said:
Think we should at least try Joyce for the rest of the year at FB

Especially if we lose to the Swans

I thought his last game was OK before Frawley came in

I agree totally. I'm not sure where that leaves Clav, but perhaps alternating between him and Highmore as a 3rd loose tall would be the go.

We have the personnel to do better with what we've got, it's just on the coaches to get their selections and tactics right for the cattle available. As Stew has said a number of times, we are just a bit dumb at the moment...

Mowman · Jun 1, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
I agree totally. I'm not sure where that leaves Clav, but perhaps alternating between him and Highmore as a 3rd loose tall would be the go.

We have the personnel to do better with what we've got, it's just on the coaches to get their selections and tactics right for the cattle available. As Stew has said a number of times, we are just a bit dumb at the moment...

I thought Clav showed enough for another game, hopefully its not just the 1 game and he get 3 or 4 games

Dr Spaceman · Jun 1, 2021

KingsRansom said:
Is the era of the stay at home fullback over?

Quite possibly, although Ratts has suggested Frawley will leave his home and play for the Saints on Saturday.

gringo2011 · Jun 1, 2021

bird_man said:
He would have tried and got no more back otherwise a club woukd just walk him to the PSD.

He tried to get more out of Freo for colyer but at the end of the day he was traded for a future 4th just before cut off because Freo woukd have just taken him in the PSD.

Fact of the matter is, players that aren't considered best 22 at that age are worth next to nothing if they aren't contracted.

Butler was a premiership player, 4 years younger than Hind and already had close to 50 games under his belt. He was traded for pick 56.

Colyer was like Dan Mc Kenzie, he was about 60 years old and played a handful of games a year. He'd been there for 8 years and couldn't break into a shit side regularly. He's 29 and still a GOP and that's generous. Hind would be in their top 5 in their B and F it's not the same.

gringo2011 · Jun 1, 2021

Mowman said:
I thought Clav showed enough for another game, hopefully its not just the 1 game and he get 3 or 4 games

We really should just play kids at this stage. Even if we can get the season back to middling we aren't going anywhere. We should sort through guys like Bytel and Calv and see if they have something. Sydney and Adelaide had similar injury lists and did just that and now reaped some benefits from it.

Yawkey way · Jun 1, 2021

KingsRansom said:
I admire how dwelling on the past and making yourself purple about it then holding everyone accountable will apparently help out the saints in the future.
If it affects you that much, then why bother? At the end of the day, it's only a game. No need to give yourself a coronary over it, feels like you two (gringo and mowman) have hijacked just about every thread hating on management and player recruitment. Think you just need a coke and a smile and chill the fu** out

Just don’t read any posts that trigger you, fixed.

gringo2011 · Jun 1, 2021

Mowman said:
Think we should at least try Joyce for the rest of the year at FB

Especially if we lose to the Swans

I thought his last game was OK before Frawley came in

He's really got something about him. His match against the Hawks was great, we sat up on the top level and you don't see how fast his closing speed is on TV, he's able to cover a lot of ground every quickly. A lot of our other taller backs can't catch up if a player gets away from them, he can and his skills with the ball are above average for his size. He's smart enough to stay goal side of his opponent most of the time too which is novel for us. Nice kick too.

StCicatriz · Jun 1, 2021

bird_man said:
It was hardly Gallaghers fault.

Hind was out of contract and looking to move on after

1. Not considered best 22 and
2. Being played out of position.

Not sure how you expect him to get a good deal for a 26 year old player that was taken late in the draft wasn't considered best 22.

If we had have tried to get any more Essendon just woukd have laughed at us and taken him in the PSD

If anyone is at fault it is the coaching staff that continued to play him out of position.

right, so here's the outcome.

Gags is at the draft table with Libba in 2018. he see's Hind still on the board. So he trades a future 3rd round pick to get him.

So then we don't have a 3rd round presence and because of the Hanners trade we also don't have a 2nd round presence either.

So then we get to the 2019 draft and trade period. To get back into the draft because of the shit done with Hanners and Hind, we send Bruce out to the dogs, a guy who is a best 22 tall forward who is still middle tier in terms of age (26/27), for a 2nd and 3rd rounder!!!!!

then we get to the end of 2020 and we trade out Hind for pick 67, a pick we don't even use!!!!!! then you wonder why we don't have any 18 year olds on our list? its because we don't even use the picks we future traded for!!!!

you don't see the issue here? worth remembering we put 2 years of development into a guy along with torching the picks! so the net outcome on Hind is burning a 3rd rounder, 2 years salary and costs associated with his development. only to then see him flourish at the club we gave him away for free too.

if that's how our list management works then no wonder we paid through the nose for Hill and have a strong history of:
1) paying a high premium for guys who have no impact (hill & hanners),
2) paying overs for guys with soft issue injuries (hanners & jones).

we can try and isolate this issue and push it all onto coaching, like we did with Trout and Richo, where Trout was fine, but Richo was the source of all our problems. but cmon, can you not see the writing on the wall here? this is not just a ratten issue or an assistant coaching issue. there's systemic problems in how we evaluate talent and what we pay for them to what they're producing. which seems to be feeding into player development and match day. given the disconnect you have identified on what he produced in the VFL to get drafted and then how we ended up using him.

its really no different to the early 2nd rounder spent on Long, drafted on his forward work produced in the VFL. played up forward, didn't work. played down back, look like it worked for half a season, to now not working at all.

BrutThough · Jun 1, 2021

StCicatriz said:
right, so here's the outcome.

Gags is at the draft table with Libba in 2018. he see's Hind still on the board. So he trades a future 3rd round pick to get him.

So then we don't have a 3rd round presence and because of the Hanners trade we also don't have a 2nd round presence either.

So then we get to the 2019 draft and trade period. To get back into the draft because of the sh*t done with Hanners and Hind, we send Bruce out to the dogs, a guy who is a best 22 tall forward who is still middle tier in terms of age (26/27), for a 2nd and 3rd rounder!!!!!

then we get to the end of 2020 and we trade out Hind for pick 67, a pick we don't even use!!!!!!

you don't see the issue here? worth remembering we put 2 years of development into a guy along with torching the picks! so the net outcome on Hind is burning a 3rd rounder, 2 years salary and costs associated with his development. only to then see him flourish at the club we gave him away for free too.

if that's how our list management works then no wonder we paid through the nose for Hill.

The picks for Bruce went directly to get Jones.

And it has been discussed at length the reasons why Bruce was moved on, and it wasn't get get draft picks in.

Yawkey way · Jun 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
He's really got something about him. His match against the Hawks was great, we sat up on the top level and you don't see how fast his closing speed is on TV, he's able to cover a lot of ground every quickly. A lot of our other taller backs can't catch up if a player gets away from them, he can and his skills with the ball are above average for his size. He's smart enough to stay goal side of his opponent most of the time too which is novel for us. Nice kick too.

They really seem to take the game on in Gaelic so the new quicker style might suit Joyce.

I thought he was unlucky to be dropped, if we loose and are just a mathematical chance for finals then surely his form warrants having a good look at him in the afl.

bird_man · Jun 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Colyer was like Dan Mc Kenzie, he was about 60 years old and played a handful of games a year. He'd been there for 8 years and couldn't break into a sh*t side regularly. He's 29 and still a GOP and that's generous. Hind would be in their top 5 in their B and F it's not the same.

Lol

Colyer was 26 when he was traded

Hind was 26 when he was traded

Both were uncontracted fringe players that were in and out of the side when traded

StCicatriz · Jun 1, 2021

BrutThough said:
The picks for Bruce went directly to get Jones.

And it has been discussed at length the reasons why Bruce was moved on, and it wasn't get get draft picks in.

right so because of how we structured the salary cap with the acquisitions of Hill + Hanners it meant we had to move on Bruce for what ever we could get?

which resulted in trading in someone who has a history of soft tissue injuries?

sounds like amazing list management!!!

bird_man · Jun 1, 2021

StCicatriz said:
right, so here's the outcome.

Gags is at the draft table with Libba in 2018. he see's Hind still on the board. So he trades a future 3rd round pick to get him.

So then we don't have a 3rd round presence and because of the Hanners trade we also don't have a 2nd round presence either.

So then we get to the 2019 draft and trade period. To get back into the draft because of the sh*t done with Hanners and Hind, we send Bruce out to the dogs, a guy who is a best 22 tall forward who is still middle tier in terms of age (26/27), for a 2nd and 3rd rounder!!!!!

then we get to the end of 2020 and we trade out Hind for pick 67, a pick we don't even use!!!!!! then you wonder why we don't have any 18 year olds on our list? its because we don't even use the picks we future traded for!!!!

you don't see the issue here? worth remembering we put 2 years of development into a guy along with torching the picks! so the net outcome on Hind is burning a 3rd rounder, 2 years salary and costs associated with his development. only to then see him flourish at the club we gave him away for free too.

if that's how our list management works then no wonder we paid through the nose for Hill and have a strong history of:
1) paying a high premium for guys who have no impact (hill & hanners),
2) paying overs for guys with soft issue injuries (hanners & jones).

we can try and isolate this issue and push it all onto coaching, like we did with Trout and Richo, where Trout was fine, but Richo was the source of all our problems. but cmon, can you not see the writing on the wall here? this is not just a ratten issue or assistant coaching issue. there's systemic problems in how we evaluate talent and what we pay for them to what they're producing.

Hind was an uncontracted fringe player that asked for a trade.

Gallagher was never going to get any more than what he got for him

Linking it to the Bruce deal is strange

bird_man · Jun 1, 2021

StCicatriz said:
right so because of how we structured the salary cap with the acquisitions of Hill + Hanners it meant we had to move on Bruce for what ever we could get?

which resulted in trading in someone who has a history of soft tissue injuries?

sounds like amazing list management!!!

Weren't we talking about Hind?

Doubt Hind coming in and out of our list had anything to do with Bruce, Hill and Hanners.

Say what you will about those trades but they have little to do with why we only got a late pick for Hind.

StCicatriz · Jun 1, 2021

bird_man said:
Hind was an uncontracted fringe player that asked for a trade.

Gallagher was never going to get any more than what he got for him

Linking it to the Bruce deal is strange

how is linking it strange? that's the reality of the outcome!

StCicatriz · Jun 1, 2021

bird_man said:
Weren't we talking about Hind?

Doubt Hind coming in and out of our list had anything to do with Bruce, Hill and Hanners.

Say what you will about those trades but they have little to do with why we only got a late pick for Hind.

you don't see the list management outcome here?

you yourself have complained that we only have 1 18 year old on our list. yet you seem to be passing over the net outcome of future trading to get Hind then getting 2 picks for him, only to not use them at all. IN THE DRAFT JUST GONE THAT YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT!

gringo2011 · Jun 1, 2021

StCicatriz said:
right, so here's the outcome.

Gags is at the draft table with Libba in 2018. he see's Hind still on the board. So he trades a future 3rd round pick to get him.

So then we don't have a 3rd round presence and because of the Hanners trade we also don't have a 2nd round presence either.

So then we get to the 2019 draft and trade period. To get back into the draft because of the sh*t done with Hanners and Hind, we send Bruce out to the dogs, a guy who is a best 22 tall forward who is still middle tier in terms of age (26/27), for a 2nd and 3rd rounder!!!!!

then we get to the end of 2020 and we trade out Hind for pick 67, a pick we don't even use!!!!!!

you don't see the issue here? worth remembering we put 2 years of development into a guy along with torching the picks! so the net outcome on Hind is burning a 3rd rounder, 2 years salary and costs associated with his development. only to then see him flourish at the club we gave him away for free too.

if that's how our list management works then no wonder we paid through the nose for Hill and have a strong history of:
1) paying a high premium for guys who have no impact (hill & hanners),
2) paying overs for guys with soft issue injuries (hanners & jones).

When the AFL were worried about Brisbane being shit for too many years they sent in David Noble who is one of the most experienced operators in footy. He pretty much played the Neil Balme role at Adelaide while they were one of the most stable clubs in footy and culminated in them making a GF and being competitive despite having limited high draft picks. He moved to Brisbane and straightened everything out and they became a well drilled tough outfit on and off field.

Some how we got Lethlean who has no football experience inside club land and let him review and cull our list and even meddle in drafts and trades. I'm not blaming him for everything that goes wrong but he's a risky appointment. Then we get Gallagher as a list manager who is a guy from sales in the banking industry. Again no experience. I heard Matt Rendall suggest that Collingwood blew their cap by getting Ned Guy who had no experience in list management who ****ed it all up.

bird_man · Jun 1, 2021

StCicatriz said:
you don't see the list management outcome here?

you yourself have complained that we only have 1 18 year old on our list. yet you seem to be passing over the net outcome of future trading to get Hind then getting 2 picks for him, only to not use them at all. IN THE DRAFT JUST GONE THAT YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT!

Yes I have complained about not having enough under 21's on our list but that has nothing to do with what we got for Hind.

Pretty sure I've said plenty of times we should have taken Poulter, Highmore and then used the Hind pick on Jackson Callow?

We ****ed up the draft but that has little to do with the fact that we were never getting anymore than a late pick for Hind

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