List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Ok KM, I saw this post ...



Which referred to us getting "2 of the best available" and thought it was a bit of a lash out at the recruiting team based on more than what we did / didn't get in the mid-season draft.

Hence the el Guapo reference.

I don't really blow a gasket on who we pick in most drafts - so to me, Turner is a "we'll see" as much as any mid-season draftee.

The not picking someone I don't understand, I would need someone to explain it to me ... as having someone on your list that has even a small chance of turning into a player, seems worth the cost of them turning out ordinary.

Looking at your posts in this thread you seem to be fired up about not only the pass - but also the pick, which I'm guessing is most probably a flow over from our poor results at past drafts. Could be wrong.

2 list spots available... yet we selected only 1 player when in rebuild mode.

You seem to be overanalysing my comments which are a simple missed opportunity.

 

[Thetrader15]

I did ....I'm happy with the list moves & development .....I'm not happy with Crouch, ROB, Frampton (delist)

I think getting Crouch on a average wage for 2 years is a good piece of list management. If he can put in the defensive efforts he was 2 years ago, he does have a role at AFL level, similar to the role Will Brodie is playing at Freo. The issue is we have 3 Will Brodie's in our midfield (Laird, Crouch, Sloane) who should all be 3rd or 4th mids. We're missing mids 1 and 2.

ROB came off a very good season, we have no other rucks on our list (separate issue), so signing him for long term is fine, but we need to also find a future ruck no (it's not Strachan). He's not classy or athletic, but not many rucks are the same (Nankervis, McInerny, Lycett, Preuss)

Frampton - well, we needed to get him across, he's OOC at the end of this year, so you'd think this would be it.

Himmelberg will be an interesting one, is he given another 1 year deal or do we say it hasn't worked and try someone else who might be a long term prospect?

 

[Thetrader15]

And just thinking about how we handled last night's MSD again, and everything about it is perplexing. Especially the decision to move Seedsman to the inactive list to free up a second selection.

Doing that indicated that there was at least a 'reality' where we could see ourselves making two selections; probably someone we had on our short list being available at that pick. We'd have known that Culley, D'Ambrosio & Dawson were top few material, so they wouldn't have been the ones we had eyes on.

So either we opened up that selection for no discernible reason, or we were hoping one of Derkson, Ramsden, Faulkhead, Teakle, Carmichael, Bauer, Hall-Kahan, Williams, Durdin, Kuek & Menzie were available at that second selection, and if they were, we'd have activated it and selected them.

Knowing that Turner as a 25 year old SANFL player with one excellent game and then a career body of work of being 'at but not above the level' would be unlikely to be taken by other clubs, why wouldn't we have taken whichever of the above was the bloke we were hoping came through to the second pick first and then relied on the likely scenario that Turner slipped to our second pick?

It just feels like very ordinary strategy and management from a team who have often showed a staggering lack of strategy and tact when it comes to drafting.

I guess the only thing worth noting is that bar Culley who's probably a top 20 type and D'Ambrosio who maybe was a top 30-35 type, I don't reckon anyone drafted in this MSD goes anywhere inside the top 45 in a real life ND. I think fans occasionally forget how slim these pickings are - we're talking about blokes who overwhelmingly would be rookie draft types at the end of the year. So as much as the lack of tact is frustrating - it probably doesn't matter much materially.

Certainly agree these players aren't top 10, exactly why IMO, we should have aimed for someone who was a 10% chance to be a top 10 player at the club, not an 80% chance of being in the 20-25 range for 3 year.

If Turner comes into the team and knocks out Berry, Hately or Murphy, does out team really look any better?

 

[GreyCrow]

If Turner comes into the team and knocks out Berry, Hately or Murphy, does out team really look any better?

Given his age profile he should be targeting Laird, Keays and Crouch.

And that's fine for an almost club but we are rebuilding (apparently) so our profile should be geared towards a high end low end - Turner for all his ability is middle

 

[jackster83]

Given his age profile he should be targeting Laird, Keays and Crouch.

And that's fine for an almost club but we are rebuilding (apparently) so our profile should be geared towards a high end low end - Turner for all his ability is middle

Crouch shouldn't be in the side regardless.

He should be injury cover for Laird only.

 

[Jarman3]

2 list spots available... yet we selected only 1 player when in rebuild mode.

You seem to be overanalysing my comments which are a simple missed opportunity.

I was wondering about that myself... why bother freeing up Seedsman's spot if we weren't planning to use it? I assume we had our eye on 2 players but the 2nd one was gone before our pick came around?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Presumably we wanted one of the top 3 players taken at our first pick and Turner with our second

 

[Crows I Am]

Presumably we wanted one of the top 3 players taken at our first pick and Turner with our second

Can be the only explanation as to why we put both Sloane and Seedsman on the LTI, only to then pass on the 2nd pick. We obviously didn't think anyone else in the country deserved a list spot.

 

[Mego Red]

This 100%. Should have gone a ruckman

Dont bother with a ruckman now.

You have one spot on a list for a developing ruckman, and only two or three get drafted every year. We will be able to get someone in the third round this year that's far better than anything available in a mid-season draft.

 

[Mego Red]

He would have been available at the rookie draft FFS.

The mid season draft is after the rookie draft. These are all players not considered good enough at the time to be rookies.

 

[Mego Red]

Assuming they grabbed Turner on a 6 month contract, it makes sense. He's a body to fill in for Sloane and Seedsman, then can be moved on at the end of the year. Draft a guy on 18 month contract, it's not a "free hit", it's picking a guy NOW rather than using the spot on an 18 year old from the national/rookie draft because then you've got to find a list spot for them next year. Our list spots are pretty tight given the amount of extensions we've handed out, I doubt we're going to open up many more list spots than 3 for the national draft and try to consolidate them in the top 35, so if you have to decide if you want to use a spot now or see if you can find a similar level of talent in the rookie draft later when you have a clearer picture of your list management needs.

Rightly or wrongly, they selection committee have decided they want a base line of maturity in the team at all times because they think they can't win without it. So Turner is a fill-in for this sort of age bracket that we don't really have a lot of.

I think they worry we will go backwards without a minimum level of mature players. It's not about winning, it's about going backwards.

We have very few decent 25 year olds and it's a bit of dead spot on our list. I would have preferred Carmichael, Voss or O'Neill instead/as well - but I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

 

[Bearded Clam]

I think getting Crouch on a average wage for 2 years is a good piece of list management. If he can put in the defensive efforts he was 2 years ago, he does have a role at AFL level, similar to the role Will Brodie is playing at Freo. The issue is we have 3 Will Brodie's in our midfield (Laird, Crouch, Sloane) who should all be 3rd or 4th mids. We're missing mids 1 and 2.

ROB came off a very good season, we have no other rucks on our list (separate issue), so signing him for long term is fine, but we need to also find a future ruck no (it's not Strachan). He's not classy or athletic, but not many rucks are the same (Nankervis, McInerny, Lycett, Preuss)

Frampton - well, we needed to get him across, he's OOC at the end of this year, so you'd think this would be it.

Himmelberg will be an interesting one, is he given another 1 year deal or do we say it hasn't worked and try someone else who might be a long term prospect?

I dont want to keep either of them.. but if I am I’m keeping Frampton over Himm..

Frampton can atleast play both ends of the ground at SANFL level.. Himm can just barely play one end!..

Neither are that great, apart from a half decent game every blue moon, at AFL level.

Problem is we have **** all else in regards to mature depth in the KPF/KPD stocks so if we let both go at the end of the season and then get a couple of injuries to KPF’s/KPD’s next year we will be throwing some very fresh meat to the wolves!..

And shit.. people are talking about moving Fog and even maybe Tex on at years end!..

The other thing with Frampton (and backed up by Nicksy’s own words) is he does provide good leadership to the youth aparently.. he has been a bot of a general in defense ar SANFL level with the youngsters..
But Himm hasnt got a leadership bone in his body!

 

[Bearded Clam]

I think they worry we will go backwards without a minimum level of mature players. It's not about winning, it's about going backwards.

We have very few decent 25 year olds and it's a bit of dead spot on our list. I would have preferred Carmichael, Voss or O'Neill instead/as well - but I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

So grab Carmichael wirh the first pick and Brett/another mature ager with the second..

What they did instead was dumb****ery at its finest..

 

[LoBu]

As it's now the middle of the season and it's clear we won't make finals, it's time to start planning ahead. Some call in play station, but that's mostly from the junior watchers, who aren't as interested in player movements/ trades.

To demonstrate how quickly our team can improve, I've put together what I believe should be on a whiteboard somewhere in West Lakes, i.e. the wishlist and plan to get there:

Trade:

• Sholl for Carlton 2022 second (32?)
• McAdam + Adelaide 2023 second (25?) for Fremantle (16?)
• 2022 first (4?) + Fremantle first (16?)+ Chayce Jones
  1

  Chayce Jones

  Age

  25

  Ht

  180cm

  Wt

  84kg

  Pos.

  Mid

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  10.0

  3star

  K

  5.4

  2star

  HB

  4.6

  3star

  M

  1.7

  2star

  T

  1.9

  4star

  CL

  1.3

  3star

  D

  8.9

  2star

  K

  4.9

  2star

  HB

  4.0

  3star

  M

  1.4

  2star

  T

  1.6

  3star

  CL

  1.1

  3star

  D

  9.4

  3star

  K

  4.4

  2star

  HB

  5.0

  4star

  M

  1.6

  2star

  T

  1.8

  4star

  CL

  0.8

  3star

  to North (Jason Horne-Francis) + North 3rd (39?)
• Fogarty for Brisbane 2022 first (17?)
• 2022 second (24?) to Essendon (Andrew McGrath
  1

  Andrew Mcgrath

  Age

  27

  Ht

  180cm

  Wt

  83kg

  Pos.

  Def

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  22.7

  5star

  K

  11.6

  4star

  HB

  11.1

  5star

  M

  1.6

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  252.9

  4star

  D

  22.7

  5star

  K

  11.6

  4star

  HB

  11.1

  5star

  M

  1.6

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  252.9

  4star

  D

  22.0

  5star

  K

  11.0

  4star

  HB

  11.0

  5star

  M

  1.2

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  219.0

  4star

  )
• Brisbane first (17?)+2023 second (25?) for Gold Coast (Isak Rankine)

Draft picks: 32(?), 39, 42, 60, 78

• 32 - Keelor
• 39+60 Michaelanny
• 42
• 78??

Delist:

• Ben Davis
• James Borlase (unless shows something this year - hopefully gets a chance)
• Tarik Newchurch or James Rowe
• Billy Frampton or E Himmelberg

Re-Sign:

• Gollant
• Nankervis
• Hinge
• Walker

Team:

Keelor Butts Laird
Parnell Doedee Andrew McGrath

1

Andrew Mcgrath

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.0

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

1.2

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

219.0

4star

Soglio Hately Dawson
Gollant Walker McHenry
Rachelle Thilthorpe Rankine

ROB, Horne-Francis, Berry

Int: Milera, Schoenberg, Smith, Keays

Emerg: Pedlar, Murphy, Hamill, Hinge, Cook
Himmelberg, Rowe, Murray, Nankervis
Sloane, Worrell, McAsey, Strachan
Taylor, Michaelanny, Seedsman (?), Crouch

My belief is that this 2023 team is a lot more skilled and refined and will make the 8. Issues around CHB are still apparent though, I haven't worked that one out.

 

[Dangerousfield]

The mid season draft is after the rookie draft. These are all players not considered good enough at the time to be rookies.

Exactly! and a number of these players for varying reasons have advanced significantly as footballers in the last half a season.

Does it advance our future to be selecting a player who has been good but not outstanding at SANFL level, knowing that it's a significant step up from SANFL to AFL. Is there any chance Turner can be an AFL finals standard player? Almost zero chance at 25 years of age.

Note who other smarter clubs drafted, young players who have burst onto the scene displaying special skills that given their age can likely be improved on. Read the bio's on the picks of Richmond, Sydney, Freo. These are players worth a try who could well end up special players but you've lost nothing trying them.

Should have taken one of those then Turner with our second as I doubt anyone was drafting him.

A completely mystifying pick, will not advance our long term cause, just another clog in our midfield. It may have a whiff of bolstering our SANFL side to try and win that flag to pacify supporters disgruntled with the stalling rebuild. The club is very lucky Dawson fell into our lap because without him we would definitely have gone backwards this year whereas now the club is saying we're a little ahead of last year, to which I call bul*poo

 

[Gtowncrow]

As it's now the middle of the season and it's clear we won't make finals, it's time to start planning ahead. Some call in play station, but that's mostly from the junior watchers, who aren't as interested in player movements/ trades.

To demonstrate how quickly our team can improve, I've put together what I believe should be on a whiteboard somewhere in West Lakes, i.e. the wishlist and plan to get there:

Trade:

• Sholl for Carlton 2022 second (32?)
• McAdam + Adelaide 2023 second (25?) for Fremantle (16?)
• 2022 first (4?) + Fremantle first (16?)+ Chayce Jones to North (Jason Horne-Francis) + North 3rd (39?)
• Fogarty for Brisbane 2022 first (17?)
• 2022 second (24?) to Essendon (Andrew McGrath)
• Brisbane first (17?)+2023 second (25?) for Gold Coast (Isak Rankine)

Draft picks: 32(?), 39, 42, 60, 78

• 32 - Keelor
• 39+60 Michaelanny
• 42
• 78??

Delist:

• Ben Davis
• James Borlase (unless shows something this year - hopefully gets a chance)
• Tarik Newchurch or James Rowe
• Billy Frampton or E Himmelberg

Re-Sign:

• Gollant
• Nankervis
• Hinge
• Walker

Team:

Keelor Butts Laird
Parnell Doedee Andrew McGrath
Soglio Hately Dawson
Gollant Walker McHenry
Rachelle Thilthorpe Rankine

ROB, Horne-Francis, Berry

Int: Milera, Schoenberg, Smith, Keays

Emerg: Pedlar, Murphy, Hamill, Hinge, Cook
Himmelberg, Rowe, Murray, Nankervis
Sloane, Worrell, McAsey, Strachan
Taylor, Michaelanny, Seedsman (?), Crouch

My belief is that this 2023 team is a lot more skilled and refined and will make the 8. Issues around CHB are still apparent though, I haven't worked that one out.

Lot's of moving parts here but I love your thinking process. Very proactive and aggressive.

I also like you've finished with a summary which includes the benefits of this level of shake up.

Lastly, if you can get this side on the ground for 2023, I'll give you the following year to solve CHB.

 

[craig crowing]

In his last 23 games (excluding games v Crows), he's kicked 10 goals. I thought I read somewhere he was a goal kicking mid, but perhaps not.

only consolation that's double what McHenry ,Murphy or Rowe have kicked.

 

[skittlebrew]

• 2022 second (24?) to Essendon (Andrew McGrath)

Yeah good luck with that one...

 

[Dangerousfield]

• 2022 second (24?) to Essendon (Andrew McGrath
  1

  Andrew Mcgrath

  Age

  27

  Ht

  180cm

  Wt

  83kg

  Pos.

  Def

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  22.7

  5star

  K

  11.6

  4star

  HB

  11.1

  5star

  M

  1.6

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  252.9

  4star

  D

  22.7

  5star

  K

  11.6

  4star

  HB

  11.1

  5star

  M

  1.6

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  252.9

  4star

  D

  22.0

  5star

  K

  11.0

  4star

  HB

  11.0

  5star

  M

  1.2

  2star

  T

  6.4

  5star

  MG

  219.0

  4star

  ), that would be the same Essendon that has the great Dodoro doing their trade negotiating? The same Dodoro that's never lost a trade period? You want McGrath, you pay a single digit pick!

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

I thought this was interesting from the latest AFL.com.au piece

"Adelaide is understood to have the fewest uncontracted players by a significant margin and needs to make decisions on only 10 footballers still without deals for next year"

Some clubs have 20+ out of contract with an average around 14 to 18.

Surely as a bad team we should have a lot more players uncontracted and ready to move on if necessary

No? We are a past the point where we need to be massive list changes every season. I don't think anyone currently contracted for 2023 should be delisted ahead of our bottom 5 non-contracted players. There a few I wouldn't mind trading but having them contracted could help us there.

We already have so many things to complain about the club, why do we need to invent new ones?

 

[LoBu]

• 2022 second (24?) to Essendon (Andrew McGrath), that would be the same Essendon that has the great Dodoro doing their trade negotiating? The same Dodoro that's never lost a trade period? You want McGrath, you pay a single digit pick!

Maybe, over on the Essendon board they are happy with a second. Not really worth much more IMO. I heard we are into him (on this board), also in the news today other clubs are too.

 

[Scorpus]

No? We are a past the point where we need to be massive list changes every season. I don't think anyone currently contracted for 2023 should be delisted ahead of our bottom 5 non-contracted players. There a few I wouldn't mind trading but having them contracted could help us there.

We already have so many things to complain about the club, why do we need to invent new ones?

I don't think it's inventing something to complain about. Our contracting has left us tight for list spots.

I mean these are the 10 uncontracted players

Billy Frampton
Elliot Himmelberg
Mitch Hinge
James Rowe
Taylor Walker
Lachlan Gollant
James Borlase (R)
Tariek Newchurch (R)
Patrick Parnell (R)
Ben Davis (R)

About half of these guys we definitely want to re-sign - Walker, Gollant, Parnell, and Hinge at the very least - which leaves us only six free spots, three of which are rookies. And that's with us delisting Rowe who is unlikely to be delisted

I also believe we have to upgrade Butts and Strachan, which if we re-contract the above 4 leaves us with just 1 senior list spot for the draft

 

[jackster83]

Dont bother with a ruckman now.

You have one spot on a list for a developing ruckman, and only two or three get drafted every year. We will be able to get someone in the third round this year that's far better than anything available in a mid-season draft.

I'm not too fussed about the rucks given that there are a few SA ones going in this year's national draft.

The KPD spot is what bothers me, especially as we've given up on McAsey and Worrell (as key defenders anyway).

 

[skittlebrew]

Maybe, over on the Essendon board they are happy with a second. Not really worth much more IMO. I heard we are into him (on this board), also in the news today other clubs are too.

He was a number 1 draft pick, zero chance Don's accept less than a first rounder at minimum. Disregarding the fact he wouldn't leave Melbourne.

List management is easy when it's not based in reality.

 

[Vader]

I don't think it's inventing something to complain about. Our contracting has left us tight for list spots.

I mean these are the 10 uncontracted players

Billy Frampton
Elliot Himmelberg
Mitch Hinge
James Rowe
Taylor Walker
Lachlan Gollant
James Borlase (R)
Tariek Newchurch (R)
Patrick Parnell (R)
Ben Davis (R)

About half of these guys we definitely want to re-sign - Walker, Gollant, Parnell, and Hinge at the very least - which leaves us only six free spots, three of which are rookies. And that's with us delisting Rowe who is unlikely to be delisted

I also believe we have to upgrade Butts and Strachan, which if we re-contract the above 4 leaves us with just 1 senior list spot for the draft

Plus 2 extra senior list positions, as list sizes are expected to return to normal (not their COVID shrunk size).