Play Nice 2022 Non AFL Crowds/Ratings/Finance/Development thread

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why is it that AFL fans can have a normal discussion about NRL like adults but NRL fans can't do anything like this when it comes to AFL?

You should see the Oz soccer fans in the Guardian website. You’re not allowed to have any sort of opinion on soccer if you happen to like another sport, it seems.

 

[Bjo187]

I'm not cherry-picking over 1 day or being difficult. The HS coverage of NRL is like that every day, so I go elsewhere for its coverage. The "bias" among them and the DT goes both ways.

Yeah but honestly what do you expect from the Herald Sun, it's a full Melbourne paper, I wouldn't go to the d.t to read AFL either.

My main point was national media, the big websites that are free and have massive traffic are saturated by nrl coverage a lot more than afl, despite the AFL being much more national and easily the bigger sport in Australia.

Regardless I do have a Herald Sun subscription myself and see nrl articles pop up on the main screen every few days, even this morning I just checked.

I am on an NRL forum of some sort and you seeing only what you want to see is nothing new among those who engage in code wars.

While you're trawling through News ltd sites on Sunday taking screenshots, I'll be out at Altona for the Footy Nations Cup. On any given Saturday this year, I'll be out watching 2 games of local footy around the Vic metro area and then talking about it for days afterward on BigFooty. Tweeting on behalf of my club. Yes, I will still be watching NRL games, but I'll also be watching AFL games too.

I'm sure then over at league unlimited you are doing the same service by running afl competitions and pages, bemoaning anybody that engages in code wars and scurrying their opinions on any bias they have noticed?

I've been visiting news.com.au for at least 5 years multiple times a day. There is a clear and substantial bias, most evident in the past 2 years.

I dunno, did Vlandy's with his famous relationships in the Sydney media he used to pressure government to restart during covid (source: his interview with mark bouris) and his penchant for trying to negotiate nrl first and afl suppression deals with foxtel (see post afl tv rights announcement) extend that to ch 9? But more importantly did he get a deal with news corp when he gave them a good price for their new tv rights deal?

Whatever he did in that space, it's worked in giving his less popular sport double if not triple the national media coverage, on its most important websites.

If anyone can understand the frustration of AFL fans in NSW and QLD it's me. At least they've got an incredible administration doing the hard yards that are needed to ensure the code thrives in those states, meanwhile in Victoria......

Sorry what's this referring to? Are you saying the AFL admin are doing a good job in nsw and qld and the NRL aren't in Victoria?

 

[Kwality]

Are you sure this is true? I read somewhere recently that there around 400 professional Australian soccer players, compared to around double the number of professional Australian Footballers i.e. there are roughly 800 players on AFL lists.

Happy to be corrected, but if I were to guess I'd say there are more Australians playing Australian Football professionally than any other sport. On that level, the financial rewards stack up pretty well. Obviously you're not going to end up with Lionel Messi salary levels, but that's obviously an extreme outlier in any case.

The quote you replied to was referring to women.
Most of our good soccer players already play internationally.

 

[Kwality]

They have been saying the sports talent was going to flock to soccer and kill footy, since the 60s.

Apparently it's finally about to happen now, care to elaborate on what's changed?

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

That has never been my opinion.

 

[Kwality]

Ireland I found interesting where people seem much more accepting of multiple football codes. I did find though that if they don’t follow Gaelic they get referred to as Poms which they obviously hate.

When I lived in England I did love to wind-up my mates by telling them that it’s hard to take the World Cup too seriously when Americans don’t like the sport because if they did they would dominate so badly that it would make it irrelevant.

Genuinely I’ve found the majority of people don’t really give a shot about sports they don’t follow though

Gaelic footy has no elite comp that could be compared with the AFL.
Despite this it fills Croke Park for the GF with 80k crowds.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Gaelic footy has no elite comp that could be compared with the AFL.
Despite this it fills Croke Park for the GF with 80k crowds.

No it’s just the most popular

 

[Our Game]

Yeah but honestly what do you expect from the Herald Sun, it's a full Melbourne paper, I wouldn't go to the d.t to read AFL either.

My main point was national media, the big websites that are free and have massive traffic are saturated by nrl coverage a lot more than afl, despite the AFL being much more national and easily the bigger sport in Australia.

Regardless I do have a Herald Sun subscription myself and see nrl articles pop up on the main screen every few days, even this morning I just checked.

View attachment 1615304



I'm sure then over at league unlimited you are doing the same service by running afl competitions and pages, bemoaning anybody that engages in code wars and scurrying their opinions on any bias they have noticed?

I've been visiting news.com.au for at least 5 years multiple times a day. There is a clear and substantial bias, most evident in the past 2 years.

I dunno, did Vlandy's with his famous relationships in the Sydney media he used to pressure government to restart during covid (source: his interview with mark bouris) and his penchant for trying to negotiate nrl first and afl suppression deals with foxtel (see post afl tv rights announcement) extend that to ch 9? But more importantly did he get a deal with news corp when he gave them a good price for their new tv rights deal?

Whatever he did in that space, it's worked in giving his less popular sport double if not triple the national media coverage, on its most important websites.



Sorry what's this referring to? Are you saying the AFL admin are doing a good job in nsw and qld and the NRL aren't in Victoria?

One of the main reasons a news site like News.com is favouring the NRL is that they along with every major media organisation in Australia are based in Sydney so journos working for them will of course biased towards Sydney.
These are the facts and nothing is going to change anytime soon but a glimmer of hope is that as the old media platforms like print media and FTA TV die out the newer digital outlets taking over they will be less Sydney centric. We can only hope!

 

[Our Game]

Yeah but honestly what do you expect from the Herald Sun, it's a full Melbourne paper, I wouldn't go to the d.t to read AFL either.

My main point was national media, the big websites that are free and have massive traffic are saturated by nrl coverage a lot more than afl, despite the AFL being much more national and easily the bigger sport in Australia.

Regardless I do have a Herald Sun subscription myself and see nrl articles pop up on the main screen every few days, even this morning I just checked.

View attachment 1615304



I'm sure then over at league unlimited you are doing the same service by running afl competitions and pages, bemoaning anybody that engages in code wars and scurrying their opinions on any bias they have noticed?

I've been visiting news.com.au for at least 5 years multiple times a day. There is a clear and substantial bias, most evident in the past 2 years.

I dunno, did Vlandy's with his famous relationships in the Sydney media he used to pressure government to restart during covid (source: his interview with mark bouris) and his penchant for trying to negotiate nrl first and afl suppression deals with foxtel (see post afl tv rights announcement) extend that to ch 9? But more importantly did he get a deal with news corp when he gave them a good price for their new tv rights deal?

Whatever he did in that space, it's worked in giving his less popular sport double if not triple the national media coverage, on its most important websites.



Sorry what's this referring to? Are you saying the AFL admin are doing a good job in nsw and qld and the NRL aren't in Victoria?

The sleazy typical Sydney blowhard V'Landys is right up News Corps backside as he knows how to play to Sydney's and NSW insecurities when they are compared to Victoria esp on the sporting front
He is their go to man esp as the DT headline maker esp if he is knocking anything to do with Victorian sport.

 

[Aucklander]

Yeah but honestly what do you expect from the Herald Sun, it's a full Melbourne paper, I wouldn't go to the d.t to read AFL either.

They're giving what the market wants. No biggie.

My main point was national media, the big websites that are free and have massive traffic are saturated by nrl coverage a lot more than afl, despite the AFL being much more national and easily the bigger sport in Australia.

Define big and free. I personally use my FB feed to get most of my sports news with my News subscription almost solely for local footy news.

Regardless I do have a Herald Sun subscription myself and see nrl articles pop up on the main screen every few days, even this morning I just checked.

Yes, token stuff, like the DT. I completely understand why.

I'm sure then over at league unlimited you are doing the same service by running afl competitions and pages, bemoaning anybody that engages in code wars and scurrying their opinions on any bias they have noticed?

I haven't posted there in nearly 6 years and why on earth would I go back? It's a spiteful, abusive, and hostile environment. There's zero interest in AFL, let alone local and International Footy. I get all that here without the crap.

I've been visiting news.com.au for at least 5 years multiple times a day. There is a clear and substantial bias, most evident in the past 2 years.

Then why go?

I dunno, did Vlandy's with his famous relationships in the Sydney media he used to pressure government to restart during covid (source: his interview with mark bouris) and his penchant for trying to negotiate nrl first and afl suppression deals with foxtel (see post afl tv rights announcement) extend that to ch 9? But more importantly did he get a deal with news corp when he gave them a good price for their new tv rights deal?

Whatever he did in that space, it's worked in giving his less popular sport double if not triple the national media coverage, on its most important websites.

Too much X-file stuff here for me. LoL.

Bjo187

Sorry what's this referring to? Are you saying the AFL admin are doing a good job in nsw and qld and the NRL aren't in Victoria?

100%

How many players are drafted out of NSW and QLD, and how many NRL players have come out of Victoria? I would even go so far as to say the AFL has done an outstanding job in growing the game even if the press doesn't run with it, while the NRL has been very poor in the same area.

 

[The Educator]

The quote you replied to was referring to women.
Most of our good soccer players already play internationally.

THere would be more than double the number of Australian women playing football in the AFLW than play soccer whether in Australia or overseas sem-professionally / professionally. I.e. the difference would be proportionally greater than the men

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Relative costs of kids sports in Queensland- Touch football, Aussie Rules, League and cricket are the cheapest

'This year is going to cost $10,000': Registration, insurance, travel — the rising costs of kids' sports

Parents are being forced to choose between their children playing sport and putting food on the table, as the cost of living crisis continues to squeeze out budget non-essentials.

www.abc.net.au

 

[The Tilt]

Relative costs of kids sports in Queensland- Touch football, Aussie Rules, League and cricket are the cheapest

'This year is going to cost $10,000': Registration, insurance, travel — the rising costs of kids' sports

Parents are being forced to choose between their children playing sport and putting food on the table, as the cost of living crisis continues to squeeze out budget non-essentials.

www.abc.net.au

Some interesting numbers. Plus I'm always impressed when they use the sport's actual name (i.e. Australian Football).

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

It doesnt close every year. The gap is the highest its been since 2017, and the second highest since the ARLC was formed in 2012.

And worth noting the AFL gets a rights increase in 2023 - as do the NRL

Year	AFL Revenue	NRL Revenue	Gap
2012	$471,493,000	$185,668,000	$285,825,000
2013	$502,699,000	$320,375,000	$182,324,000
2014	$524,431,000	$350,902,000	$173,529,000
2015	$558,674,000	$374,142,000	$184,532,000
2016	$569,856,000	$391,368,000	$178,488,000
2017	$752,622,000	$400,091,000	$352,531,000
2018	$778,596,000	$523,562,000	$255,034,000
2019	$793,939,000	$555,915,000	$238,024,000
2020	$674,816,000	$419,673,000	$255,143,000
2021	$738,137,000	$575,080,000	$163,057,000
2022	$869,937,000	$593,000,000	$276,937,000

The AFL would have a lot more expenses too. Number of teams, number of umpires, the state comps in QLD/Tas/Vic/NSW/ACT/NT that it operates are all larger than anything in WA/SA/Vic/NT/Tas for the NRL. The AFL spends more on facilities and development. Club funding is higher. AFLPA funding is much higher.

So 2017 AFL's increase in revenue is about $75m revenue from buying Docklands in November 2016 and $120m going from the last years of 2012-16 total broadcasting deal of $1.253 bil over 5 years to the first year of the $2.508bil 2017-22 deal over 6 years given these deals have a growth component and not the same every year.

I assume the $352m gap of 2017 to $255m in 2018 is just a timing difference between TV/media deals of the 2 comps.

 

[The Educator]

So 2017 AFL's increase in revenue is about $75m revenue from buying Docklands in November 2016 and $120m going from the last years of 2012-16 total broadcasting deal of $1.253 bil over 5 years to the first year of the $2.508bil 2017-22 deal over 6 years given these deals have a growth component and not the same every year.

I assume the $352m gap of 2017 to $255m in 2018 is just a timing difference between TV/media deals of the 2 comps.

I would be comfortable betting that next year's gap will be out beyond that $352M figure (and will grow again in 2025)....even though I am sure you a right that the 2017 figure was related to TV deal timing

 

[The Tilt]

I would be comfortable betting that next year's gap will be out beyond that $352M figure (and will grow again in 2025)....even though I am sure you a right that the 2017 figure was related to TV deal timing

Presumably the relative gap b/w AFL and NRL revenue is a more useful indicator than the $ amount. What's interesting is how stable that gap is: NRL revenue is consistently between 60 and 70 per cent of AFL revenue. It sounds like the outliers (2012, 2017 and 2021) are each explained the timing of TV rights.

Year	AFL Revenue	NRL Revenue	Gap	NRL as % of AFL
2012​	$471,493,000​	$185,668,000​	$285,825,000​	39%​
2013​	$502,699,000​	$320,375,000​	$182,324,000​	64%​
2014​	$524,431,000​	$350,902,000​	$173,529,000​	67%​
2015​	$558,674,000​	$374,142,000​	$184,532,000​	67%​
2016​	$569,856,000​	$391,368,000​	$178,488,000​	69%​
2017​	$752,622,000​	$400,091,000​	$352,531,000​	53%​
2018​	$778,596,000​	$523,562,000​	$255,034,000​	67%​
2019​	$793,939,000​	$555,915,000​	$238,024,000​	70%​
2020​	$674,816,000​	$419,673,000​	$255,143,000​	62%​
2021​	$738,137,000​	$575,080,000​	$163,057,000​	78%​
2022​	$869,937,000​	$593,000,000​	$276,937,000​	68%​

 

[The Educator]

Presumably the relative gap b/w AFL and NRL revenue is a more useful indicator than the $ amount. What's interesting is how stable that gap is: NRL revenue is consistently between 60 and 70 per cent of AFL revenue. It sounds like the outliers (2012, 2017 and 2021) are each explained the timing of TV rights.

Year	AFL Revenue	NRL Revenue	Gap	NRL as % of AFL
2012​	$471,493,000​	$185,668,000​	$285,825,000​	39%​
2013​	$502,699,000​	$320,375,000​	$182,324,000​	64%​
2014​	$524,431,000​	$350,902,000​	$173,529,000​	67%​
2015​	$558,674,000​	$374,142,000​	$184,532,000​	67%​
2016​	$569,856,000​	$391,368,000​	$178,488,000​	69%​
2017​	$752,622,000​	$400,091,000​	$352,531,000​	53%​
2018​	$778,596,000​	$523,562,000​	$255,034,000​	67%​
2019​	$793,939,000​	$555,915,000​	$238,024,000​	70%​
2020​	$674,816,000​	$419,673,000​	$255,143,000​	62%​
2021​	$738,137,000​	$575,080,000​	$163,057,000​	78%​
2022​	$869,937,000​	$593,000,000​	$276,937,000​	68%​

I am pretty sure that state of origin series occurred after the NRL financial year in 2020 and so 2021 included two series.

Beyond that I think the comparison probably reflects the relatively close TV deals during those years (and the AFL having considerably higher other revenues).

We may find the percentage falls over the next 5 years

 

[The_Wookie]

Presumably the relative gap b/w AFL and NRL revenue is a more useful indicator than the $ amount. What's interesting is how stable that gap is: NRL revenue is consistently between 60 and 70 per cent of AFL revenue. It sounds like the outliers (2012, 2017 and 2021) are each explained the timing of TV rights.

Year	AFL Revenue	NRL Revenue	Gap	NRL as % of AFL
2012​	$471,493,000​	$185,668,000​	$285,825,000​	39%​
2013​	$502,699,000​	$320,375,000​	$182,324,000​	64%​
2014​	$524,431,000​	$350,902,000​	$173,529,000​	67%​
2015​	$558,674,000​	$374,142,000​	$184,532,000​	67%​
2016​	$569,856,000​	$391,368,000​	$178,488,000​	69%​
2017​	$752,622,000​	$400,091,000​	$352,531,000​	53%​
2018​	$778,596,000​	$523,562,000​	$255,034,000​	67%​
2019​	$793,939,000​	$555,915,000​	$238,024,000​	70%​
2020​	$674,816,000​	$419,673,000​	$255,143,000​	62%​
2021​	$738,137,000​	$575,080,000​	$163,057,000​	78%​
2022​	$869,937,000​	$593,000,000​	$276,937,000​	68%​

2017 was also the first year Marvel factored into the AFLs revenue.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I would be comfortable betting that next year's gap will be out beyond that $352M figure (and will grow again in 2025)....even though I am sure you a right that the 2017 figure was related to TV deal timing

AFL broadcasting revenue ie all mediums, jumped from $264m to $381m between 2016 and 2017.

Your post made me look up the NRL deal for 2018-2022, it was $1.8bil + NZ and radio deals which were negotiated after Oz component. It increased by 70% up from $1.025bil for 2013 -17 years which was also before NZ and radio component. The NRL 2023-27 deal is around $2.3bil.

Post 2024 when the TV and media deals align the difference will be, probably $150m due to broadcasting revenue ( between 2025 and 2027 years as NRL did a 2023-27 deal for just over $2bil), plus $100-$120m a year due to Docklands and $100m+ from other revenue streams.

2023 and 2024 there wont be a huge gap in TV/media differences maybe $50m so the difference will be around $280-300m for those couple of years.

 

[Bjo187]

Presumably the relative gap b/w AFL and NRL revenue is a more useful indicator than the $ amount. What's interesting is how stable that gap is: NRL revenue is consistently between 60 and 70 per cent of AFL revenue. It sounds like the outliers (2012, 2017 and 2021) are each explained the timing of TV rights.

Year	AFL Revenue	NRL Revenue	Gap	NRL as % of AFL
2012​	$471,493,000​	$185,668,000​	$285,825,000​	39%​
2013​	$502,699,000​	$320,375,000​	$182,324,000​	64%​
2014​	$524,431,000​	$350,902,000​	$173,529,000​	67%​
2015​	$558,674,000​	$374,142,000​	$184,532,000​	67%​
2016​	$569,856,000​	$391,368,000​	$178,488,000​	69%​
2017​	$752,622,000​	$400,091,000​	$352,531,000​	53%​
2018​	$778,596,000​	$523,562,000​	$255,034,000​	67%​
2019​	$793,939,000​	$555,915,000​	$238,024,000​	70%​
2020​	$674,816,000​	$419,673,000​	$255,143,000​	62%​
2021​	$738,137,000​	$575,080,000​	$163,057,000​	78%​
2022​	$869,937,000​	$593,000,000​	$276,937,000​	68%​

I think there is a miscalculation there in 2021 and 2022 percentage but a good breakdown.

So traditionally the gap is created by let's say roughly 50 mill difference in tv deals. Memberships and attendance creates a huge difference at club level but the AFL only get money for finals is my understanding. So I'm wondering what makes up the extra 200 mill or so. Sponsorship I know is bigger for the AFL, I thought marvel makes decent revenue but not much profit.

 

[The Educator]

AFL broadcasting revenue ie all mediums, jumped from $264m to $381m between 2016 and 2017.

Your post made me look up the NRL deal for 2018-2022, it was $1.8bil + NZ and radio deals which were negotiated after Oz component. It increased by 70% up from $1.025bil for 2013 -17 years which was also before NZ and radio component. The NRL 2023-27 deal is around $2.3bil.

Post 2024 when the TV and media deals align the difference will be, probably $150m due to broadcasting revenue ( between 2025 and 2027 years as NRL did a 2023-27 deal for just over $2bil), plus $100-$120m a year due to Docklands and $100m+ from other revenue streams.

2023 and 2024 there wont be a huge gap in TV/media differences maybe $50m so the difference will be around $280-300m for those couple of years.

Thanks for that analysis.

I've got to say, the only reference to a $2.3B figure I can find is around the time they were signing their extension in 2020 https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/n...l/news-story/41e04e0af6cd4d0a69eae1cd9302fc37

Reports for the 23 to 27 deal seem to all imply around $400M a year..eg..

Moneyball: NRL can’t catch AFL in the dollar stakes

The AFL remains the king of TV broadcast deals despite a win-win deal for the NRL with Nine, but all eyes will be on Cricket Australia as it edges closer to the expiry of its deal with Seven and Foxtel.

www.afr.com

What is a bit unclear is:
-what each code got this year (after covid discounts). I remember VLandys hinting that the AFL had spread its impact more in the out years (21 and 22) of the Covid renegotiations
-what, if any, is the inflater in each of the contracts? The AFL has a substantial inflater in its 25 to 31. I am assuming these are pretty standard and the NRL won't be getting $400M next year
-how big are the contra components of each deal

My assumption (admittedly based on guesswork) is there will be a jump in the TV value gap next year in the low 10s of millions. The AFL will also have the gather round that it has not had previously and will get increased revenue streams from Marvel redevelopment (though apparently this won't be complete until later this year).

If not in 2023, I would be quite confident 2024 will see the gap extend beyond $350 million

The other thing to remember is that the NRL has cut substantially "head office" costs (seen reports of $50M). There may be some genuine "efficiencies" in there but there it is almost certain that this would be dragging down revenues (e.g. media)

 

[The Educator]

I think there is a miscalculation there in 2021 and 2022 percentage but a good breakdown.

So traditionally the gap is created by let's say roughly 50 mill difference in tv deals. Memberships and attendance creates a huge difference at club level but the AFL only get money for finals is my understanding. So I'm wondering what makes up the extra 200 mill or so. Sponsorship I know is bigger for the AFL, I thought marvel makes decent revenue but not much profit.

In addition to sponsorship and Marvel, the AFL also has its own membership and sells far more finals tickets at substantially higher average prices. These would add the best part of $100 million

 

[Bjo187]

In addition to sponsorship and Marvel, the AFL also has its own membership and sells far more finals tickets at substantially higher average prices. These would add the best part of $100 million

The eagles have over 100k members and make the most off membership and attendance of any club in the competition, being 33 million in 2022. I can't seem to find how many AFL members there are, but you would assume it would be around that mark of 100k if that.

The finals series would only add about another 20mill to the coffers from ticket sales I think. So I think more 50mill than 100mill coming into the AFL from those avenues, but may be wrong.

 

[The_Wookie]

I think there is a miscalculation there in 2021 and 2022 percentage but a good breakdown.

So traditionally the gap is created by let's say roughly 50 mill difference in tv deals. Memberships and attendance creates a huge difference at club level but the AFL only get money for finals is my understanding. So I'm wondering what makes up the extra 200 mill or so. Sponsorship I know is bigger for the AFL, I thought marvel makes decent revenue but not much profit.

AFL memberships, and it recieves attendance bonuses if targets are met at the MCG.

 

[Our Game]

Some interesting numbers. Plus I'm always impressed when they use the sport's actual name (i.e. Australian Football).

It is time all Australian Football supporters and media started to reclaim our rightful name and not let soccer try to dilute it from its pure Australian origins!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Plus I'm always impressed when they use the sport's actual name (i.e. Australian Football).

I feel left out. Growing up in NSW (and I'm quite old!) it was always Footy or Aussie Rules to me.