We lost nothing by going for him. If anything we forced the Pies to pay a little more.
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List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part II
- Thread starter saintsrfreak
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agreed
- May 24, 2011
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We need to be realistic about how attractive a proposition our club is.
We need to be consistently playing finals to be a club big name players are interested in. We've been a nothing club for over a decade, apart from one covid affected year.
To achieve that we need to be able to get the best out of the players we have. That's the key. We clearly haven't been able to do that.
Finishes outside the 8 just put us further and further behind.
We need to be consistently playing finals to be a club big name players are interested in. We've been a nothing club for over a decade, apart from one covid affected year.
To achieve that we need to be able to get the best out of the players we have. That's the key. We clearly haven't been able to do that.
Finishes outside the 8 just put us further and further behind.
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Important to note though that this is also often good for relationships with player managers. They like it if they can get something out of list managers to help their client - like a serious offer. Though in this case not so useful considering JDG's manager is his brother-in-law!
At this stage I'm really struggling to see the point of losing Clark unless we get something decent for him. As in a top ten pick.
See if this saga can serve to spur him on this off-season.
Shipping him off to a rudderless North Melbourne just seems cruel.
See if this saga can serve to spur him on this off-season.
Shipping him off to a rudderless North Melbourne just seems cruel.
Mowman
Brownlow Medallist
- May 19, 2013
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Would prefer we try and develop Clark and Bytel into the midfield
This is the team we need to be building around based on what we currently have IMO
FB: Paton Howard Wilkie
HB: Sinclair Battle Coffield
C: McKenzie Clark NWM
HF: Windhager Sharman Gresham
FF: Higgins King Owens
R: Marshall Steele Crouch
I think we need to start phasing out the following players entirely:
I would be trying to get these blokes to new clubs (if there were any takers) over this off-season and the next two.
As others have said, the only way we get out of our hole is by drafting. We need to stop taking shortcuts, we need to hit the draft hard year after year. Take 3 picks as early as we can get for the best young talent, then pick up the best state league players late to fill any specific needs.
We need to take advantage of teams looking for salary dumps as well as paying some salary for our outgoing players to make them more appealing.
There are only 18 players we need to keep, I'd rather see us use our cap space to bring in better picks that will make our core stronger, rather than paying overs for guys that won't make us a premiership threat.
I.e. I would rather we take on $500k on a GC reject and get a top 20 pick than spend that $500k on Jones. Might be some short term pain, we might finish 14th, instead of 11th, but that will just help us bring in more high end quality.
We cannot compete in the current system when we have to pay the shit club tax on every good player we would like to recruit. We need to bring in big groups of young talent and convince them they're building something special long term.
Until we build a rock solid foundation, we will continue to be the home for broken toys and Crouch, Carlisle and Hill types will be the best we can hope for.
FB: Paton Howard Wilkie
HB: Sinclair Battle Coffield
C: McKenzie Clark NWM
HF: Windhager Sharman Gresham
FF: Higgins King Owens
R: Marshall Steele Crouch
I think we need to start phasing out the following players entirely:
- Jones
- Ross
- Hill
- Billings
- Membrey
- Webster
- Butler
I would be trying to get these blokes to new clubs (if there were any takers) over this off-season and the next two.
As others have said, the only way we get out of our hole is by drafting. We need to stop taking shortcuts, we need to hit the draft hard year after year. Take 3 picks as early as we can get for the best young talent, then pick up the best state league players late to fill any specific needs.
We need to take advantage of teams looking for salary dumps as well as paying some salary for our outgoing players to make them more appealing.
There are only 18 players we need to keep, I'd rather see us use our cap space to bring in better picks that will make our core stronger, rather than paying overs for guys that won't make us a premiership threat.
I.e. I would rather we take on $500k on a GC reject and get a top 20 pick than spend that $500k on Jones. Might be some short term pain, we might finish 14th, instead of 11th, but that will just help us bring in more high end quality.
We cannot compete in the current system when we have to pay the shit club tax on every good player we would like to recruit. We need to bring in big groups of young talent and convince them they're building something special long term.
Until we build a rock solid foundation, we will continue to be the home for broken toys and Crouch, Carlisle and Hill types will be the best we can hope for.
Since everyone was ok with taking a risk on JDG what do people think about Sydney Stack?
He's out of contract and could be a good pickup if he commits. Absolutely has all the talent in the world.
He's out of contract and could be a good pickup if he commits. Absolutely has all the talent in the world.
I'd rather have Jed Anderson for no cost.
Dr Spaceman
Brownlow Medallist
Agree.
However he is contracted and therefore shipping him off to a rudderless North Melbourne can only happen if he wants to go to a rudderless North Melbourne.
And in that case it would be Hunter Clark who is being cruel to Hunter Clark.
In this case we had a fair idea it was happening, and were happy to make the spouse squirm a bit.
If the cap fits .....Dard must have hit a nerve
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Not confirmed, but the 11am-12pm slot mentioned they were going to talk to him someone this week.
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The risk is he isn't good and takes a developing players spot. Actually that would be the reality.
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Nuffy is spelled with a “y” you backwards crawling imbeciles
- Oct 18, 2011
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Again that's simply not true.
If Collingwood had stuck to its 2 + 2/3 with additional behaviour clauses, do you seriously believe that after all that had happened, De Goey would have rolled over and gone belly up with the Pies and signed with them?
The Pies were played, we were serious and consistent - and as a result we come out completely untarnished from the exercise and that's the key point especially leading into trade week.
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Yes, when we pitched to DeGoey his team were impressed and very seriously looked at the proposal. They were even impressed that our offer was not much more than Collingwoods.
If the pressure hadn't come from us, the Magpies would have gotten away with a much stronger and cheaper contract.
Not saying pressure would not have come from other interested parties, however the Saints were the ones most serious.
Comes to pass our pitch wasn't taken up, however I don't see how we made a hash of it, DeGoey's first choice was Collingwood but it seemed they were pushing him out, they were forced to up the offer.
Who knows Collingwood might push him out in a year or two, like they do as they have SC problems, ask Treloar and Grundy how valid a long term contract is.
Dude... seriously
I said we were used as a pawn. We were. JDG used the fact we were interested to get what he wanted from the pies.
I never said we screwed up. I never said we were made fools of.
You're stuck.
It's all pretty simple.
- Mar 14, 2011
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I think there is an argument to be made about whether we were used as a pawn.
Ultimately it does look that way - seeing as he Is apparently staying.
The actual argument is, if we rated him - should we have gone balls deep on an offer and blown the pies away?
But then you get into the waters of being negligent with someone who has issues with behaviour.
Very fine line. So it’s easy to see how people sit on either side of it.
Saint_Dos
Premiership Player
AFL 2022: Gary Buckenara analyses the St Kilda list at the end of the 2022 season
Contender or pretender? It shapes as a defining summer for St Kilda and several key calls must be made. But the Saints have been given a big warning about offloading young talent.Gary Buckenara
6 min read
September 29, 2022 - 6:00AM
St Kilda
St Kilda fans must be getting impatient – and I don’t blame them.In Brett Ratten’s fourth season at the club, the Saints missed the September party again.
The Saints showed good form – at times – in 2022, but they remain too inconsistent with their performances.
They are a bit like the proverbial box of chocolates; you’re never too sure what team you’re going to get from week to week.
The Saints probably haven’t had the best run with injuries, but all clubs can point to players that have missed as an excuse.
The biggest issue is the quality of top-end talent compared to the top-four sides and their skill execution going forward is also a concern.
Where will St Kilda finish in 2023?
Top four5th-8th
9th-12th
13th-18th
Cast your vote
They have an A-grade ruckman in Rowan Marshall – now with the stage to himself after the retirement of Paddy Ryder – who can win stoppages, but the Saints are unable to capitalise by hand or foot going forward.
Overall, the Saints have been a let-down again in 2022. This group, as it stands, is not capable of being a serious challenger or winning a flag.
If they are to have any chance of becoming a contender in the next couple of years, they will need to improve their skill level and decision making, which can be hard to do.
Adding elite, skilled players via the draft and through trade is one way but it takes time to integrate them into the team.
The Saints have already farewelled four players from their list with the retirements of Jarryn Geary, Dan Hannebery, Dean Kent and Ryder.
It’s time for the Saints to invest in more players through the draft as their stocks of 21-and- under players is too low.
They have invested in recycled players and traded players for them, which hasn’t always paid off.
Investing in players via the draft and developing them, rather than going for depth players needs to be the list management plan.
Brad Hill, Ryder, Zak Jones and Dougal Howard all added to the list, but it is time to have a look at highly skilled and footy-smart young players.
Captain Jack Steele leads the Saints’ A-grade players, while young forward Max King has developed quickly into top-line talent.
King is the kind of young star a club can build a flag-winning team around and the Saints would want to make sure they don’t waste too many of his burgeoning years.
Jack Sinclair’s All-Australian season elevates him to A-grade status, while Jack Billings’ talent defied an injury-hit year when he was restricted to just eight senior games.
HOW THE RATINGS WORK
At a club level, player ranking is generally based on gradings of A+, A, B+, B, C+, C and the developing players.
My rankings will focus on A, B, C and for the developing 20-year-old and under players will be rated as rising stars (RS) and those that need more time (NMT).
With the younger players, it is important to consider who is coming through and those who need longer to develop.
The most important areas for clubs to look at is how many A and B ranked players they have as well as the rising stars, who I believe should be A and B-grade players in the future.
A
Seb Ross, 29, 187cm, 86kg
Jack Steele, 26, 187cm, 91kg
Max King, 21, 202cm, 97kg
Jack Billings, 26, 185cm, 82kg
Rowan Marshall, 26, 201cm, 105kg
Jack Sinclair, 27, 181cm, 82kg
Callum Wilkie, 26, 191cm, 88kg
B
Nick Coffield, 22, 191cm, 88kg
Zak Jones, 27, 182cm, 80kg
Jade Gresham, 24, 177cm, 80kg
Brad Crouch, 28, 186cm, 85kg
Hunter Clark, 23, 186cm, 83kg
Dan Butler, 26, 182cm, 80kg
Bradley Hill, 28, 182cm, 80kg
Dougal Howard, 26, 199cm, 97kg
Ben Long, 24, 183cm, 80kg
Jack Higgins, 23, 178cm, 79kg
Josh Battle, 23, 193cm, 92kg
Tim Membrey, 28, 188cm, 88kg
Jimmy Webster, 28, 188cm, 84kg
Daniel McKenzie, 26, 184cm, 83kg
C
Ryan Byrnes, 21, 180cm, 81kg
Jack Bytel, 22, 189cm, 84kg
Jarrod Lienert, 27, 195cm, 88kg
Mason Wood R, 28, 192cm, 87kg
Ben Paton, 23, 186cm, 83kg
Tom Highmore, 24, 193cm, 89kg
Tom Campbell, 30, 201cm, 105cm
Cooper Sharman R, 21, 193cm, 83kg
Jack Hayes, 25, 193cm, 91kg
Developing (20 years and under)
Rising stars:
Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera, 19, 187cm, 71kg
Marcus Windhager, 19, 185cm, 85kg
Needs more time:
Mitch Owens, 18, 190cm, 85kg
Oscar Adams, 18, 197cm, 85kg
Matthew Allison, 20, 195cm, 79kg
Leo Connolly, 20, 181cm, 78kg
Max Heath R, 19, 204cm, 93kg
Jack Peris R, 18, 176cm, 69kg
Josiah Kyle R, 18, 182cm, 72kg
LIST BREAKDOWN
A-Grade: 7
B-Grade: 14
C-Grade: 9
Rising stars: 2
Need more time: 7
Retired: Jarryn Geary, Dan Hannebery, Dean Kent, Paddy Ryder,
Delisted:
Darragh Joyce
LIST NEEDS
St Kilda’s list, with 23 A, B and rising star players, has got depth but inconsistent efforts still hurt them. The Saints have some promising C-grade players who have emerged from the development categories and hopefully some will continue to develop into A or B-graders in the next few years. I think Tom Highmore and Jack Hayes can definitely elevate themselves with a decent run at it next season. But the number of development players remains too low and they need to invest in this draft to bolster to ensure the future of their list. The Saints need to focus on players with elite kicking skills as this lets the team down far too often going forward. They can win the stoppages well, but too frequently butcher the ball entering F50. This is one reason why players such as Brad Crouch and Zak Jones are rated B grade.
TRADE TARGETS
The Saints have been courting Jordan De Goey, whose future remains in the air. Even though he had a good finals series, my advice would be buyer beware. Has the leopard changed his spots? At his best on the field, De Goey would be an A-grade pick-up and worth a first-round selection. But will he ever realise his immense talent? It’s a big contract they would need to offer and for me it’s a ‘no’. It’s too big a risk to take if it goes pear-shaped. That’s not to say the Saints shouldn’t keep their options open to who else might become available during the trade period, especially if there is a good midfielder with pace and elite foot skills on offer. Maybe they could bring in Matt Crouch to join his brother? Despite a knock on his kicking, I think he uses the ball well, although he doesn’t have great leg speed. The upside is he wouldn’t cost them anything.
TRADE BAIT
The Saints have a lot of A and B-ranked players, so I would be testing the market to see who might tempt rival clubs in a bid to get another early pick. Brad Hill is open to exploring his options to join a fourth club, while Ben Long wants to continue his career at the Gold Coast Suns. But the Saints won’t get early picks for either of those players; maybe a second-round for Hill given salary considerations and a third-round for Long. Nick Coffield, Jade Gresham or Hunter Clark might appeal to some clubs, but their recruiting team has to weigh up the benefits versus the negatives of trading these types of players and what they can get in return. But I think the Saints have to explore these options, especially when the list, as it stands, is unlikely to win them a flag.
The Saints need a first-round pick for Hunter Clark who has long been considered their best young talent alongside Max King.
It’s the same story with Nick Coffield and Jade Gresham, it has to be an early pick if the Saints are going to win out on this deal. If not, then they are better off holding the young talent as they aren’t flushed with it.
CRYSTAL BALL
The Saints are at the crossroads now with this list. They either have to back them in to win a premiership in the next few years, or make some bold decisions and rejuvenate the list with young talent and trade out some players to get more early picks in a strong draft. Personally, I don’t think this list is capable of winning a premiership and they need to make some big calls. They might need to take some steps backwards to move forwards towards a flag. The Saints need to get into the next draft and bring in some young talent with elite skills and competitiveness. Having two great ruckmen on their list – before Ryder’s retirement – was a great weapon for the Saints. They won stoppages, but too often wasted opportunities with poor disposals. They need to address this if they are to become a genuine contender in 2023 and beyond. The club also needs to look at their list management and recruiting team. Getting early picks is one thing, but if you recruit the wrong young talent and trade out experience it can push a list back years. It has been far too long since the Saints had a premiership-contending list. It’s time to act, or pay the price.
phantom13
Moderator
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I think DeGoey very very seriously considered our offer, if thats true i wouldnt call us pawns. That our very good, very genuine offer was used as leverage by his management and forced Collingwoods hand is whatever... nothing we can do there.
Im glad we had a crack and im also fine with it not panning out.
If we did too little or offered too much id be disappointed but as it is (and i rarely say this) i think we did a great job there.
Im glad we had a crack and im also fine with it not panning out.
If we did too little or offered too much id be disappointed but as it is (and i rarely say this) i think we did a great job there.
Fair enough
What i don't see though, is people implying someone saying the club was negligent, when the person in question never said, nor implied it.
I was all in on JDG from the start.
It's done. He got them to change their offer. Had their not been a serious offer from us, that might not have happened.
As for blowing them away with our offer, I would have been fine if we did. I know others will disagree.
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