List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

our talent identification is shocking.

We pick random players.

Given you're so draft focused, do you mean, identifying players from other clubs and picking random players?

Honestly, the fact we've been in and around finals as much as we haved the last 20 years despite comfortably the worst trading record of any non=expansion club since then speaks to being decent at drafting. At the very least, I dont think we've whiffed on many picks since 2016. You honestly turn Hogan into King and the talent ID since 2016 is top notch.

 

[Joao]

Our drafting is at least average and I reckon better.

Our trading is 17th ahead of only GCS (whom without we'd probably be starting the rebuild from scratch by now).

 

[Taylor]

our talent identification is shocking.

We pick random players.

That's hyperbolic rubbish.

 

[go_the_dockers]

That's hyperbolic rubbish.

Identifying players to trade in, not draft

 

[go_the_dockers]

Given you're so draft focused, do you mean, identifying players from other clubs and picking random players?

Honestly, the fact we've been in and around finals as much as we haved the last 20 years despite comfortably the worst trading record of any non=expansion club since then speaks to being decent at drafting. At the very least, I dont think we've whiffed on many picks since 2016. You honestly turn Hogan into King and the talent ID since 2016 is top notch.

The players we pick to trade in. Not draft.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The players we pick to trade in. Not draft.

Yah, that makes more sense

 

[Docker82]

We’ve lost Mundy, Acres, Lobb and Logue. Jackson and JOM have come in.

Outside of that this is the same group of players that made it to the second week of finals last year. 2/3 of the team hasn’t simply lost its ability overnight.

I still think we have the same problems as when the season started:

• Lack of a quality key forward target coming through to support Amiss. KPFs were always going to be an issue this year if Taberner didn’t give us his best footy.
• Lack of proven wingers. I think the club has overrated the ability of Henry and/or Hughes to step up tbh.
• Our small forwards actually go alright but we’re trying to fit three HFFs into one forward line. Need a natural goal scoring small forward to replace Walters and perhaps a second one.

It seems we’ve got the midfield mix wrong this year but I really rated Johnson and Erasmus before we drafted them and they’ve both shown a little bit at AFL level. Let’s pump games into both before stating we need to draft a whole new midfield.

Fix the midfield and the crazy amount of inside 50s coming in and our defence looks much better. Pearce, Cox, Ryan, Clark and Chapman haven’t lost their ability overnight but their confidence in certain parts of their game looks shot. A new coach is required to get the best out of them imo.

We’re still reasonably young overall so not expecting miracles. I still think that with a new coaching team we’re very much capable of making finals next year.

 

[Taylor]

The market to attract players to Fremantle hasn't ever been one in which the football club has had it's pick from a field of options.

For the majority of our history players of note have entertained offers from Fremantle to push their contract with their club higher, and the Dockers get a look at whomever is left.

 

[Taylor]

We’ve lost Mundy, Acres, Lobb and Logue. Jackson and JOM have come in.

Outside of that this is the same group of players that made it to the second week of finals last year. 2/3 of the team hasn’t simply lost its ability overnight.

I still think we have the same problems as when the season started:

• Lack of a quality key forward target coming through to support Amiss. KPFs were always going to be an issue this year if Taberner didn’t give us his best footy.
• Lack of proven wingers. I think the club has overrated the ability of Henry and/or Hughes to step up tbh.
• Our small forwards actually go alright but we’re trying to fit three HFFs into one forward line. Need a natural goal scoring small forward to replace Walters and perhaps a second one.

It seems we’ve got the midfield mix wrong this year but I really rated Johnson and Erasmus before we drafted them and they’ve both shown a little bit at AFL level. Let’s pump games into both before stating we need to draft a whole new midfield.

We’re still reasonably young overall so not expecting miracles. I still think that with a new coaching team we’re very much capable of making finals next year.

Let's not understate how much impact Andrew Brayshaw, MVP and high brownlow count, had on last year and now how much the side is missing his elite top end output due to his knee injury.

He is still offering leads by the way, they just aren't kicking it to him.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

We’ve lost Mundy, Acres, Lobb and Logue. Jackson and JOM have come in.

Outside of that this is the same group of players that made it to the second week of finals last year. 2/3 of the team hasn’t simply lost its ability overnight.

I still think we have the same problems as when the season started:

• Lack of a quality key forward target coming through to support Amiss. KPFs were always going to be an issue this year if Taberner didn’t give us his best footy.
• Lack of proven wingers. I think the club has overrated the ability of Henry and/or Hughes to step up tbh.
• Our small forwards actually go alright but we’re trying to fit three HFFs into one forward line. Need a natural goal scoring small forward to replace Walters and perhaps a second one.

It seems we’ve got the midfield mix wrong this year but I really rated Johnson and Erasmus before we drafted them and they’ve both shown a little bit at AFL level. Let’s pump games into both before stating we need to draft a whole new midfield.

We’re still reasonably young overall so not expecting miracles. I still think that with a new coaching team we’re very much capable of making finals next year.

Agreed, a lot of chicken little about a list that looked damn good 6 months ago. Both Johnson and Ras solve all our midfield problems if they come on. Johnson in particular has shown a lot to be excited about given he has that natural time and poise you can’t teach as well as the size and skills to be damaging. They just need time.

I don’t know how they’ve ****ed it up but the defence was good all through JL tenur prior to this year so it can be un****ed quickly I would think.

Needs some forward class, time and better coaching and it’s back to top 4. Never as bad or as good…

 

[s_wd6]

Agreed, a lot of chicken little about a list that looked damn good 6 months ago. Both Johnson and Ras solve all our midfield problems if they come on. Johnson in particular has shown a lot to be excited about given he has that natural time and poise you can’t teach as well as the size and skills to be damaging. They just need time.

I don’t know how they’ve ****ed it up but the defence was good all through JL tenur prior to this year so it can be un*ed quickly I would think.

Needs some forward class, time and better coaching and it’s back to top 4. Never as bad or as good…

How much of the defence is personnel regressing and how much of it is our midfield getting dominated and our game plan being found out?

I mean 2020 we had no KPF and Ryan was taking the number 1 each week. Duman and Hughes were playing every week. 5th in PA.

2021 Logue, Cox, Pearce injured for large chunks of the season. Duman and Watson playing most weeks. 12th in PA.

2022 fully fit defence. 2nd in PA.

2023 fully fit defence. 15th in PA.

 

[FreoRicci]

Keep the scouts that are finding the Freddies of the world at 60odd. Sack the dude who is in charge of the trading.

That’s the frustrating point. So bloody good at finding the Neales, Ryans, Fredericks, Schultz that completely fall apart with the top picks.
Either panic trade them or research for that pick is horrid.

 

[FreoRicci]

Agreed, a lot of chicken little about a list that looked damn good 6 months ago. Both Johnson and Ras solve all our midfield problems if they come on. Johnson in particular has shown a lot to be excited about given he has that natural time and poise you can’t teach as well as the size and skills to be damaging. They just need time.

I don’t know how they’ve ****ed it up but the defence was good all through JL tenur prior to this year so it can be un*ed quickly I would think.

Needs some forward class, time and better coaching and it’s back to top 4. Never as bad or as good…

Ras and Johnson shoudlve just got given the open spots. Instead left with the older experienced players regressing that development of the inexperienced is affected.

If Fyfe is fit, rather Erasmus, Brayshaw, Johnson, Serong, Fyfe in the middle. One of Brodie or JOM. Jesus have traded/drafted too many of the same types.

 

[Dockeroo]

That’s the frustrating point. So bloody good at finding the Neales, Ryans, Fredericks, Schultz that completely fall apart with the top picks.
Either panic trade them or research for that pick is horrid.

Our top picks at the draft have been pretty good recently to be fair.

 

[go_the_dockers]

The market to attract players to Fremantle hasn't ever been one in which the football club has had it's pick from a field of options.

For the majority of our history players of note have entertained offers from Fremantle to push their contract with their club higher, and the Dockers get a look at whomever is left.

This is our fault for doing stupid trades and sacrificing our future.

Hit the draft, get a good team and people will come.

 

[Taylor]

This is our fault for doing stupid trades and sacrificing our future.

Hit the draft, get a good team and people will come.

Your plan didn't account for that same issue I mentioned happening while we were a top four team..

 

[PurpleEyes]

7 years into a rebuild, and we are still a bottom 6 team with no first round draft pick this year.

Hogan, Lobb, Aish, Clark, Jackson in for 4 first round draft picks and 4 2nd.

This is some of the worst list management I have seen, including gold coast.

The devil is in the details.
We all now know the Hogan trade was a bust. That was an emotional purchase by Freo after so many years of failing to have a key forward and having so much pressure to resolve that problem. But if Hogan was still with us now producing what he is at GWS, that trade would now not seem so bad.

And I think many if not most of us thought that we paid overs for Jackson regardless of our end of 2023 ladder position, but now with our poor season, and given the trade included our 2023 1st & 2nd there is little doubt that it was overs. For example, if we assume Freo end up 14th at the end of 2023, our Jackson trade will be about equal to 3,500 draft value points (which is about pick 1 & 36 or something like 2 1st Rounders like 4 & 9).
Jackson may well end up a brilliant long term player for us, but the trade cost was very high.
I can only assume a large part of Freo's reasoning was they thought (based on 2022 season) we were in a premiership window and we had to gamble plenty to maximise our limited chance and timing ... a general strategy I think we should endorse if we really want a premiership.

But I struggle to understand why you have listed those others.
Freo's nett result out of our trading with Lobb was without doubt a win for us. We got him in 2018 for very little plus 50+ games out of him before trading him for what works out to be more than we paid for him.
I have little doubt that Aish & Clark will end up nett wins for us too given they cost us very little and are both regular B22 players for us.

But Freo's legacy carries some emotional ghosts.
In almost 30 years of AFL, Pavlich is our only KPF. He kicked us 700 goals. Our next best KPF has not even kicked 200 goals for us. And this is why we get desperate and pay overs for something we know is rare.

 

[go_the_dockers]

The devil is in the details.
We all now know the Hogan trade was a bust. That was an emotional purchase by Freo after so many years of failing to have a key forward and having so much pressure to resolve that problem. But if Hogan was still with us now producing what he is at GWS, that trade would now not seem so bad.

And I think many if not most of us thought that we paid overs for Jackson regardless of our end of 2023 ladder position, but now with our poor season, and given the trade included our 2023 1st & 2nd there is little doubt that it was overs. For example, if we assume Freo end up 14th at the end of 2022, our Jackson trade will be about equal to 3,500 draft value points (which is about pick 1 & 36 or something like 2 1st Rounders like 4 & 9).
Jackson may well end up a brilliant long term player for us, but the trade cost was very high.
I can only assume a large part of Freo's reasoning was they thought (based on 2022 season) we were in a premiership window and we had to gamble plenty to maximise our limited chance and timing ... a general strategy I think we should endorse if we really want a premiership.

But I struggle to understand why you have listed those others.
Freo's nett result out of our trading with Lobb was without doubt a win for us. We got him in 2018 for very little plus 50+ games out of him before trading him for what works out to be more than we paid for him.
I have little doubt that Aish & Clark will end up nett wins for us too given they cost us very little and are both regular B22 players for us.

But Freo's legacy carries some emotional ghosts.
In almost 30 years of AFL, Pavlich is our only KPF. He kicked us 700 goals. Our next best KPF has not even kicked 200 goals for us. And this is why we get desperate and pay overs for something we know is rare.

For Lobb, we effectively traded pick 6 for Lobb and Sturt. Pick 6 was king. Effectively we traded pick 5 and 6, for Lobb, Hogan and Sturt. 5 was Rozzee

Fyi. I rated Lobb as high as I do Jackson. They have a good high lights package, but overall output is poor. Jackson is a ruck.
The anti money ball player.

Aish is 27, won't be part of our next flag and cost a 2nd. And best is a b grader
Clark cost an early 2nd. B grader at best

When you are rebuilding you need A graders, then once you get enough you top up. Instead we have B graders, and not enough A graders.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Your plan didn't account for that same issue I mentioned happening while we were a top four team..

At least we were a top 4 side. Yes that is a tougher issue to solve.

I think we get there, then try to solve that issue.

 

[s_wd6]

For Lobb, we effectively traded pick 6 for Lobb and Sturt. Pick 6 was king. Effectively we traded pick 5 and 6, for Lobb, Hogan and Sturt. 5 was Rozzee

Fyi. I rated Lobb as high as I do Jackson. They have a good high lights package, but overall output is poor. Jackson is a ruck.
The anti money ball player.

Aish is 27, won't be part of our next flag and cost a 2nd. And best is a b grader
Clark cost an early 2nd. B grader at best

When you are rebuilding you need A graders, then once you get enough you top up. Instead we have B graders, and not enough A graders.

Yet there are still people on this board who want to trade for Naughton.

 

[Nodgey]

Lol, Sharp is playing for Gold Coast in the VFL because he is mediocre and not good enough for the AFL. Do you think Dew would cut his nose off despite his face if Sharp were bona fide first 22 when Dew is coaching for his future?

Giving this a like because of the despite his face [emoji106]

 

[Docker82]

The devil is in the details.
We all now know the Hogan trade was a bust. That was an emotional purchase by Freo after so many years of failing to have a key forward and having so much pressure to resolve that problem. But if Hogan was still with us now producing what he is at GWS, that trade would now not seem so bad.

And I think many if not most of us thought that we paid overs for Jackson regardless of our end of 2023 ladder position, but now with our poor season, and given the trade included our 2023 1st & 2nd there is little doubt that it was overs. For example, if we assume Freo end up 14th at the end of 2023, our Jackson trade will be about equal to 3,500 draft value points (which is about pick 1 & 36 or something like 2 1st Rounders like 4 & 9).
Jackson may well end up a brilliant long term player for us, but the trade cost was very high.
I can only assume a large part of Freo's reasoning was they thought (based on 2022 season) we were in a premiership window and we had to gamble plenty to maximise our limited chance and timing ... a general strategy I think we should endorse if we really want a premiership.

But I struggle to understand why you have listed those others.
Freo's nett result out of our trading with Lobb was without doubt a win for us. We got him in 2018 for very little plus 50+ games out of him before trading him for what works out to be more than we paid for him.
I have little doubt that Aish & Clark will end up nett wins for us too given they cost us very little and are both regular B22 players for us.

But Freo's legacy carries some emotional ghosts.
In almost 30 years of AFL, Pavlich is our only KPF. He kicked us 700 goals. Our next best KPF has not even kicked 200 goals for us. And this is why we get desperate and pay overs for something we know is rare.

Except we blew the Future 2nd we got for Lobb on ****ing JOM.

 

[Superkoops]

Jackson was a mistake. If we let him go to the Eagle's last year we could have gotten Ginbey and than added another KPF this year. Our rebuild would have been complete. They thought we were closer to a flag than they actually were.

How do we get Ginbey??

He was selected at 9. The pick we gave to Melbourne was 15 (Jefferson). We would basically need another late first to move up that far in the first round ie from 15 to 8.

 

[Taylor]

At least we were a top 4 side. Yes that is a tougher issue to solve.

I think we get there, then try to solve that issue.

I see. Well step one is having Woodside or Bankwest hire half our playing list for 150k a year each and we sign them for that much less per year then we can offer free agent and trade targets way over to finally move.

 

[Superkoops]

Keep the scouts that are finding the Freddies of the world at 60odd. Sack the dude who is in charge of the trading.

Walls has shown himself to be a good draft recruiter.

He and Bell haven’t shown themselves to be much chop at trading - get someone else in to look after that. In fact Freo have been shizen at trading for years. We need some Geelong/Melbourne hardness.

Watching this weekend showed me a couple of things. Acres whilst prone to bombing the ball too often is a very good winger. He has very good run and carry. We threw him away after his best season. We essentially got the same pick as Hogan salary dump. He also showed against Eagles that he is able to lower the eyes more and hit leading forward.

On top of that the Eagles, who struggled to attract anyone picked up a player Jayden Hunt who has been a solid FA selection. Over 500m gained but what I liked in the first half was his willingness to get back and help defenders. Second half was a s*#tshow.

We gave away Acres for zippo and we replace him with a depth HBF who for mine didn’t show that much last year as a wingman at Peel. The decision for Freo not cave in to GC on Sharp is what I want to see more of but we needed to keep Acres for a couple more years and honestly wouldn’t have cost more.

I don’t have a problem with JOM trade. I have a problem with the Jackson trade.