List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[gringo2011]

If the kids are starring and we’re bringing more on board, the supporters will follow. The media too.

RTB, Hayes, Harvs, Enright, Goddard etc coaching doesn’t hurt either.

Not if they go backwards and we are bottom 4 with sides like North jumping us. Hawks and North have got the jump on bringing in high end talent. GC should really shoot up next season. Hawks and North too. WCE and Geelong are in need of serious list building but both should still be competitive still. WC won't have the same injury run again you imagine.

We could very easily finish between 15th and 18th if we cut hard at the older end of the list.

 

[Miha]

Is Pou on a 1 yr deal?

 

[gringo2011]

Cordy was made to look ordinary thanks to the lack of pressure up the ground. It would not have mattered one iota if we had Doug there instead.

And to be fair, the Dogs offered him a deal but at that stage they had Keath and a million other talls in front of him (who would have thought that Bevo would be so pig headed to keep Naughton in the forward line instead of swinging him back).

I'm more than happy for the club to bring in someone like Tomlinson while Van Es develops his game.

If we can add more talent to the midfield, whoever is combined with Wilks & Battle will be under less pressure anyway.

That is true but he was also terrible one on one. Howard is a better one on one defender. Cordy looked alright when he wasn't exposed but that isn't a model you can rely on in defence or you'd just stand anyone in there.

 

[stavro#4]

Not if they go backwards and we are bottom 4 with sides like North jumping us. Hawks and North have got the jump on bringing in high end talent. GC should really shoot up next season. Hawks and North too. WCE and Geelong are in need of serious list building but both should still be competitive still. WC won't have the same injury run again you imagine.

We could very easily finish between 15th and 18th if we cut hard at the older end of the list.

Not one of the publicly mentioned players is in our top 10.

We could just as easily finish 15-18th with them in the side.

A lot harder to sell a future if you do that and you have missed out on an entires year of development we could have put into a few more kids

 

[gringo2011]

If they are that short sighted they probably need to do some research.

We are one of the youngest average aged sides selected this year and we were the youngest side to play finals based on this.

We were a bottom half of the 8 side - which would mean we are very susceptible to dropping out. It doesn’t guarantee we will. But we would be odds on.

This is our current ceiling. By the time Owens phillipou NWM king etc are in their prime. Most this list will be gone or in the twilight.

To get better. To contend we need more top end talent.

Our stated aim is going to the draft and we are not buying McKay and currently linked to absolute money ball type of incomings - with the exception being we could buy good players in high salary if the opportunity arises.

Sometimes taking a deep breathe and taking the emotion out of this stuff helps see the bigger picture.

It makes sense. If it works it puts us in a fantastic opportunity with a big window for success.

If it fails, it moves out out of the 8 next year but doesn’t prolong us as a bottom rung side.

There is a lot more to gain from this approach then lose.

If it fails it puts us into another serious rebuild. Our post 2010 period feels like we are stuck in permanent mediocrity. Not bad enough to get assistance and too incompetent to get anything right.

I give them 12 months to prove something and if they get it wrong a broom needs to go through the whole place. We are so uninspiring that no-one want to put up a ticket. That dentist was the only bloke that has shown any interest and he looked like he'd been tucking into the gas canister.

 

[gringo2011]

Not one of the publicly mentioned players is in our top 10.

We could just as easily finish 15-18th with them in the side.

A lot harder to sell a future if you do that and you have missed out on an entires year of development we could have put into a few more kids

You have to have some good ones to put time into. Part of our issue is that we avoided taking them and now don't have a generation.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Not if they go backwards and we are bottom 4 with sides like North jumping us. Hawks and North have got the jump on bringing in high end talent. GC should really shoot up next season. Hawks and North too. WCE and Geelong are in need of serious list building but both should still be competitive still. WC won't have the same injury run again you imagine.

We could very easily finish between 15th and 18th if we cut hard at the older end of the list.

I highly doubt that losing the names that have been discussed (and not the stupid theories like the Skipper) will result in us falling into the bottom 4.

 

[BrutThough]

Eight Saints will undergo surgery in the next week, as preparations for the next pre-season already get underway.

Jack Steele (ankle), Max King (shoulder), Brad Crouch (knee), Jack Hayes (knee), Dougal Howard (finger), James Van Es (ankle), Mason Wood (shoulder) and Dan Butler (ankle) will all undergo procedures to ready them for a big summer.

you're welcome

Hayes had his surgery prior to the last game so I wouldn't take the wording of that sentence as gospel.

 

[LennyHayes77]

Hate reading this thread and seeing how much our supporters over-rate our own players trade value. If we don't want them, what makes people think another club is willing to pay a decent draft pick for a rejected Saints player.

Also the talk of Gresham getting more than the so called average wage of 600k is hilarious. Just because the average wage is 600k doesn't mean an average player gets gifted 600k a year. That's not how it works. The top players will get more and the bottom earners will get a bit more to get the average up. Gresham is only getting a decent pay packet because we had no one else to pay a few years ago.

The other one is, any rumours regarding Harley Reid not wanting to go to West Coast are completely false. They also have no fear of picking Victorians and keeping them their whole careers.

 

[Sun Ra]

Eight Saints will undergo surgery in the next week, as preparations for the next pre-season already get underway.

Jack Steele (ankle), Max King (shoulder), Brad Crouch (knee), Jack Hayes (knee), Dougal Howard (finger), James Van Es (ankle), Mason Wood (shoulder) and Dan Butler (ankle) will all undergo procedures to ready them for a big summer.

you're welcome

Bulk discount obviously.

 

[gringo2011]

I highly doubt that losing the names that have been discussed (and not the stupid theories like the Skipper) will result in us falling into the bottom 4.

It really depends on injury, how much others improve, how the kids go with linear development etc. The competition isn't static. I'd say GWS, GC, Essendon, North, Freo etc all think that they can make a jump next year and for good reason.

If we get a few injuries and rely on new kids playing along side kids....well that's how you get uneven performance. I think we over achieved this year on the back of an incredible fast start and a good fixture. Start with a finals fixture playing top 8 sides in double ups, lose depth etc and we could definitely fall away.

 

[stavro#4]

If it fails it puts us into another serious rebuild. Our post 2010 period feels like we are stuck in permanent mediocrity. Not bad enough to get assistance and too incompetent to get anything right.

I give them 12 months to prove something and if they get it wrong a broom needs to go through the whole place. We are so uninspiring that no-one want to put up a ticket. That dentist was the only bloke that has shown any interest and he looked like he'd been tucking into the gas canister.

You have to have some good ones to put time into. Part of our issue is that we avoided taking them and now don't have a generation.

Stop being silly.

Dougal Howard Jack Billings Hunter Clark and Jade Gresham leaving will not set us up for another serious rebuild.

And for what it’s worth. We want Gresham to stay. On money we offer. His camp think they can get substantially more.

As Ross said the other night.^^

This isn’t just the saints binning everyone.

It is the saints saying. We will entertain offers for any player not named King Pou Windy Owens NWM

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

That is true but he was also terrible one on one. Howard is a better one on one defender. Cordy looked alright when he wasn't exposed but that isn't a model you can rely on in defence or you'd just stand anyone in there.

Cordy was ok one on one for the few weeks before the GWS game. It's debatable whether Doug's 2023 form as a one on one defender was any better. He absolutely was in previous years but lost his mojo in the back half of '22 and was inconsistent this year.

If he is traded its safe to assume that they are very comfortable with how Van Es is progressing and are happy to use Cordy (and maybe someone like Tomlinson) to hold the fort until JVE is ready to go.

I really like the idea of running Hammer through a preseason in defence. He has all the physical tools to be a very good CHB... and with Keeler a potential forward line partner with Max, it could be smart forward planning to find a spot for him to settle.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

It really depends on injury, how much others improve, how the kids go with linear development etc. The competition isn't static. I'd say GWS, GC, Essendon, North, Freo etc all think that they can make a jump next year and for good reason.

If we get a few injuries and rely on new kids playing along side kids....well that's how you get uneven performance. I think we over achieved this year on the back of an incredible fast start and a good fixture. Start with a finals fixture playing top 8 sides in double ups, lose depth etc and we could definitely fall away.

If we have a worse injury run than this year we really should be culling every black cat around Linton St as a priority.

 

[BrutThough]

It really depends on injury, how much others improve, how the kids go with linear development etc. The competition isn't static. I'd say GWS, GC, Essendon, North, Freo etc all think that they can make a jump next year and for good reason.

If we get a few injuries and rely on new kids playing along side kids....well that's how you get uneven performance. I think we over achieved this year on the back of an incredible fast start and a good fixture. Start with a finals fixture playing top 8 sides in double ups, lose depth etc and we could definitely fall away.

It's got Fremantle this year written all over it.

 

[stavro#4]

If we have a worse injury run than this year we really should be culling every black cat around Linton St as a priority.

Burn every ladder and remove every mirror

 

[gringo2011]

Hate reading this thread and seeing how much our supporters over-rate our own players trade value. If we don't want them, what makes people think another club is willing to pay a decent draft pick for a rejected Saints player.

Also the talk of Gresham getting more than the so called average wage of 600k is hilarious. Just because the average wage is 600k doesn't mean an average player gets gifted 600k a year. That's not how it works. The top players will get more and the bottom earners will get a bit more to get the average up. Gresham is only getting a decent pay packet because we had no one else to pay a few years ago.

The other one is, any rumours regarding Harley Reid not wanting to go to West Coast are completely false. They also have no fear of picking Victorians and keeping them their whole careers.

I think we underrate our players personally. Because we have played finals we all of a sudden have talent. If you wanted to extract the same players from other clubs what would you pay? Howard was SANFL fringe player at Port and cost a lot. He's a better more established player in his prime now in a sellers market.

Gresham had a poor year but sides would back themselves to return him to his pre Lyon form. He finished strong and was one of our few players that looked like he kept up with the pace last week. Karl Amon got $650 and he's less high impact. Gresham was one of only a few to have 25 and over a goal game for most of last year. The others were all stars.

 

[stavro#4]

It really depends on injury, how much others improve, how the kids go with linear development etc. The competition isn't static. I'd say GWS, GC, Essendon, North, Freo etc all think that they can make a jump next year and for good reason.

If we get a few injuries and rely on new kids playing along side kids....well that's how you get uneven performance. I think we over achieved this year on the back of an incredible fast start and a good fixture. Start with a finals fixture playing top 8 sides in double ups, lose depth etc and we could definitely fall away.

Mate that threat is there keeping the names publicly mentioned.

That’s the point of this process.

How do we get better by not bottoming out intentionally?

It’s a plan that theoretically makes sense. It could work.

It’s the implementation

It is and I say this truthfully. Low risk.

 

[Veer Right]

Hate reading this thread and seeing how much our supporters over-rate our own players trade value. If we don't want them, what makes people think another club is willing to pay a decent draft pick for a rejected Saints player.

Also the talk of Gresham getting more than the so called average wage of 600k is hilarious. Just because the average wage is 600k doesn't mean an average player gets gifted 600k a year. That's not how it works. The top players will get more and the bottom earners will get a bit more to get the average up. Gresham is only getting a decent pay packet because we had no one else to pay a few years ago.

The other one is, any rumours regarding Harley Reid not wanting to go to West Coast are completely false. They also have no fear of picking Victorians and keeping them their whole careers.

Last year, around this time, Clark was a top ten pick according to many posters here.

I know it's mean but i gotta lol

 

[gringo2011]

Stop being silly.

Dougal Howard Jack Billings Hunter Clark and Jade Gresham leaving will not set us up for another serious rebuild.

And for what it’s worth. We want Gresham to stay. On money we offer. His camp think they can get substantially more.

As Ross said the other night.^^

This isn’t just the saints binning everyone.

It is the saints saying. We will entertain offers for any player not named King Pou Windy Owens NWM

Chopping away depth definite sets you backwards. It's more than what you lose, it's how linear our development goes and the balance between youth and experience. Kids just can't be relied on to bring consistency. Phillipou Owens etc were fast tracked but we are missing a generation between them and the oldies.

I'd say backing up next year isn't definite with a full list.

We'd better hope that some of our bargain bin specials are over achievers.

 

[Coconut_twirl]

If it fails it puts us into another serious rebuild. Our post 2010 period feels like we are stuck in permanent mediocrity. Not bad enough to get assistance and too incompetent to get anything right.

I give them 12 months to prove something and if they get it wrong a broom needs to go through the whole place. We are so uninspiring that no-one want to put up a ticket. That dentist was the only bloke that has shown any interest and he looked like he'd been tucking into the gas canister.

You would have to be very unlucky to have a repeat of Paddy and Hugh Goddard injuries to high picks. There was some real bad decisions - like the pick they gave for Tom Lee and trading a future secound rounder swap to get Clavarino (When the next draft was supposed to be stronger). I thought Brandon White should have got more games (Not sure why?). Dmac a little unlucky being a high pick come good but it looks like injuries might prematurely end his career. Still some hope for him.

Better coach, better assistants and development now. Current list manager had made a promising start. Also, they are actively looking for midfielders now. I would back the current mob.

Coffield and Clark still might come good.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Is Pou on a 1 yr deal?

We only drafted him this year.
All draftee's get a 2 year deal.
Rookies can be 1.

 

[gringo2011]

Mate that threat is there keeping the names publicly mentioned.

That’s the point of this process.

How do we get better by not bottoming out intentionally?

It’s a plan that theoretically makes sense. It could work.

It’s the implementation

It is and I say this truthfully. Low risk.

Well I guess it's how you define low risk. Lyon will be a pariah if he can't stay in the top 8 next year.

 

[gringo2011]

You would have to be very unlucky to have a repeat of Paddy and Hugh Goddard injuries to high picks. There was some real bad decisions - like the pick they gave for Tom Lee and trading a decline rounder swap to get Clavarino (When the next draft was supposed to be stronger). I thought Brandon White should have got more games (Not sure why?).

Better coach, better assistants and development now. Current list manager had made a promising start. Also, they are actively looking for midfielders now. I would back the current mob.

Coffield and Clark still might come good.

Paddy and Hugh just weren't very good picks as well as being injured. We wasted pretty much every high pick after Brendan Goddard until Max King. It was an extraordinary effort to be that bad at drafting, we actually traded out like we are proposing now to get multiple goes at ****ing it up. We took Billings, Dunny and Acres in the first round in one draft for zero return. Took Hugh and Paddy with first round picks for zero. It's not like we even got anything good back for any of them.

Once or twice is the luck of the draft. To blow every one of them is almost unfathomably bad in a system designed to make it hard to **** up. Looks like Clark and Coffield are more likely to be busts too.

 

[stavro#4]

Chopping away depth definite sets you backwards. It's more than what you lose, it's how linear our development goes and the balance between youth and experience. Kids just can't be relied on to bring consistency. Phillipou Owens etc were fast tracked but we are missing a generation between them and the oldies.

I'd say backing up next year isn't definite with a full list.

We'd better hope that some of our bargain bin specials are over achievers.

Yes I agree.

The the point is that you can’t expect to make the leap into the top 4 - which in my opinion is the hardest leap to make by selecting 15th in the draft as your big list change.

There is also a very real scenario we go backwards with this exact same list aswell.

I’d rather say bye to Clark Gresham Howard and try improve in the draft