List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[Jay Beast]

This thread is depressing af.

 

[jimmytigs]

He list managed a giants team to a grand final then...


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ah 2011-2013,back to carlton 2014,giants played a gf 2019,i mean come on,how many early picks did the suns and giants get when they first started,please check the list of giants that went elsewhere and the ones he bought to the blues and get back to me with a comment

 

[tomjoad]

I CBF scrolling through the whole thread but can someone give me like a system out of 10 how likely all this stuff is

Gresh going
Clark going
Billings going
Coff going

Jordon in
Tomlinson in
Henry in
Gold Coast pick 4 in

Anything else I’ve missed?

I think it's been reported that Tomlinson is staying at the Dee's.

 

[Miha]

Fin Macrae a decent shout perhaps?

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

ah 2011-2013,back to carlton 2014,giants played a gf 2019,i mean come on,how many early picks did the suns and giants get when they first started,please check the list of giants that went elsewhere and the ones he bought to the blues and get back to me with a comment

Seriously these repeated comments about Silvagni just recycling GWS players in his role at Carlton are just lazy and tired. It is the one sentence soundbite that everyone contributes on the topic so they can simply add something to the conversation. But its just shallow and adds no substance. I am by no means a defender of SOS, but his overall body of work in that period is much larger than just that.

I am sure I have missed some things, but below should give a bit of an idea.

Silvagni arrived back at Carlton late 2014 as list manager, and left following the draft in 2019. Ignoring the draft as that not his primary focus, my grades for his trade work are below.

2015 – A+
Traded Tom Bell to Brisbane for 21. Big tick
Traded Chris Yarran to Richmond for 19. Wow!!
Traded out a first round bust in T.Menzal for a mid-second and S.Kerridge. Huge tick
Traded Lachie Henderson to Geelong for a late first. Break even
Traded that late first (Henderson) and pile of junk picks to GWS for Plowman, Phillips, Lamb, Sumner AND pick 8 (which became Harry McKay)

2016 - D+
Traded Thouy & an early second for Smedts and a late first. Ouch.
Then traded that late first for quality in Marchbank. Would have been okay if his body wasnt made of glass. A second pile of junk in Palmer & Pickett were attached as condition of sale

2017 - A
Traded out an over the hill Gibbs for two firsts (10 & 16) with some other later swaps. Great work anyway you cut it
Traded in M.Kennedy for a mid-second rounder. A solid, poor mans version of the Steele trade
Traded in a third pile of junk in Lang & Lobbe, but at no cost

2018 – D
Gave a massive contract and a mid-first rounder for M.McGovern. Really not great
Got N.Newman for a packet of twisties. Tick
Picked up Fasolo as an FA as a list clogger

2019 – C+
Got Betts back. Tick
Bought in Pittonet for a packet of twisties. Tick
Signed Newnes as a FA. Serviceable in a list lacking depth
Gave Phillips to Essendon. Meh

My overall impression is he is excellent for getting value out of B graders and flawed quality on a list. Which is exactly what we need right now. Hasn’t really hit much in the bargain bin. One absolute howler in M.McGovern. But that is a significant body of work that is much larger than "he just likes the first rounders that he drafted at his last club." Yes he took on some GWS junk, but that was to buy a top 10 pick (2015) and Marchbank (2016).

If he can do something like what he did overall in 2015 with our current pile of OOC players, we will be building him a statue

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Of course his manager rates him, that’s his job. But he has identified that Billings days in the Saints best 22 are numbered hence why he is shopping him. He literally said it publicly - listen for yourself before you go half-cocked.

Lion attracts interest, Docker signs on, rookie rule in motion

www.afl.com.au

I did read it . That’s the point. He won’t be list fodder anywhere, his manager is just talking politics.

 

[Veer Right]

Lol at people laughing at Dow & Jordan they prob be come in and be our best mids

Jordon is vanilla (another opinion and mine) and low impact but good disposal efficiency and 23 next season. Don't think he has enough strings to his bow to make him a good recruitment. I think he's a Jack Newnes type.

Dow offers up what we need being zippy and a stoppage and clearance beast. Is that better then our 2023 mids? Not much opposition outside Crouch so maybe.

 

[Veer Right]

Seriously these repeated comments about Silvagni just recycling GWS players in his role at Carlton are just lazy and tired. It is the one sentence soundbite that everyone contributes on the topic so they can simply add something to the conversation. But its just shallow and adds no substance. I am by no means a defender of SOS, but his overall body of work in that period is much larger than just that.

I am sure I have missed some things, but below should give a bit of an idea.

Silvagni arrived back at Carlton late 2014 as list manager, and left following the draft in 2019. Ignoring the draft as that not his primary focus, my grades for his trade work are below.

2015 – A+
Traded Tom Bell to Brisbane for 21. Big tick
Traded Chris Yarran to Richmond for 19. Wow!!
Traded out a first round bust in T.Menzal for a mid-second and S.Kerridge. Huge tick
Traded Lachie Henderson to Geelong for a late first. Break even
Traded that late first (Henderson) and pile of junk picks to GWS for Plowman, Phillips, Lamb, Sumner AND pick 8 (which became Harry McKay)

2016 - D+
Traded Thouy & an early second for Smedts and a late first. Ouch.
Then traded that late first for quality in Marchbank. Would have been okay if his body wasnt made of glass. A second pile of junk in Palmer & Pickett were attached as condition of sale

2017 - A
Traded out an over the hill Gibbs for two firsts (10 & 16) with some other later swaps. Great work anyway you cut it
Traded in M.Kennedy for a mid-second rounder. A solid, poor mans version of the Steele trade
Traded in a third pile of junk in Lang & Lobbe, but at no cost

2018 – D
Gave a massive contract and a mid-first rounder for M.McGovern. Really not great
Got N.Newman for a packet of twisties. Tick
Picked up Fasolo as an FA as a list clogger

2019 – C+
Got Betts back. Tick
Bought in Pittonet for a packet of twisties. Tick
Signed Newnes as a FA. Serviceable in a list lacking depth
Gave Phillips to Essendon. Meh

My overall impression is he is excellent for getting value out of B graders and flawed quality on a list. Which is exactly what we need right now. Hasn’t really hit much in the bargain bin. One absolute howler in M.McGovern. But that is a significant body of work that is much larger than "he just likes the first rounders that he drafted at his last club." Yes he took on some GWS junk, but that was to buy a top 10 pick (2015) and Marchbank (2016).

If he can do something like what he did overall in 2015 with our current pile of OOC players, we will be building him a statue

I am of the opinion the blues have an excellent list so he can't have been as bad as they say. I had little knowledge on Silvagnis recruiting outside the naysayers hating on him so i appreciate this. Gives me fair bit of optimism moving forwards.

 

[Sippa]

Seriously these repeated comments about Silvagni just recycling GWS players in his role at Carlton are just lazy and tired. It is the one sentence soundbite that everyone contributes on the topic so they can simply add something to the conversation. But its just shallow and adds no substance. I am by no means a defender of SOS, but his overall body of work in that period is much larger than just that.

I am sure I have missed some things, but below should give a bit of an idea.

Silvagni arrived back at Carlton late 2014 as list manager, and left following the draft in 2019. Ignoring the draft as that not his primary focus, my grades for his trade work are below.

2015 – A+
Traded Tom Bell to Brisbane for 21. Big tick
Traded Chris Yarran to Richmond for 19. Wow!!
Traded out a first round bust in T.Menzal for a mid-second and S.Kerridge. Huge tick
Traded Lachie Henderson to Geelong for a late first. Break even
Traded that late first (Henderson) and pile of junk picks to GWS for Plowman, Phillips, Lamb, Sumner AND pick 8 (which became Harry McKay)

2016 - D+
Traded Thouy & an early second for Smedts and a late first. Ouch.
Then traded that late first for quality in Marchbank. Would have been okay if his body wasnt made of glass. A second pile of junk in Palmer & Pickett were attached as condition of sale

2017 - A
Traded out an over the hill Gibbs for two firsts (10 & 16) with some other later swaps. Great work anyway you cut it
Traded in M.Kennedy for a mid-second rounder. A solid, poor mans version of the Steele trade
Traded in a third pile of junk in Lang & Lobbe, but at no cost

2018 – D
Gave a massive contract and a mid-first rounder for M.McGovern. Really not great
Got N.Newman for a packet of twisties. Tick
Picked up Fasolo as an FA as a list clogger

2019 – C+
Got Betts back. Tick
Bought in Pittonet for a packet of twisties. Tick
Signed Newnes as a FA. Serviceable in a list lacking depth
Gave Phillips to Essendon. Meh

My overall impression is he is excellent for getting value out of B graders and flawed quality on a list. Which is exactly what we need right now. Hasn’t really hit much in the bargain bin. One absolute howler in M.McGovern. But that is a significant body of work that is much larger than "he just likes the first rounders that he drafted at his last club." Yes he took on some GWS junk, but that was to buy a top 10 pick (2015) and Marchbank (2016).

If he can do something like what he did overall in 2015 with our current pile of OOC players, we will be building him a statue

What I like about sos is he thinks outside the box and has a crack .. you could point out mistakes every single list manager has made

I don’t get the negativity either .. Carlton’s list right now is largely him

 

[austinnn]

I hope we don't throw him away. He's got to have some value.

He has value but any decent list managers will realise we're more desperate to get rid of him than they are for his "services" so they wait for him to be delisted. If he re-signs with us no other clubs will really care.

Maybe a few clubs might chuck a 3RDP or a pick swap in the 2nd or 1st round at us if they smell moneyball

 

[Klaatu]

How is Jack Vineys kicking ?

 

[pebblesofsand]

How is Jack Vineys kicking ?

About as good as Clayton Olivers.

The first rule of drafting - can they get the ball?

2nd rule - draft George Stevens

 

[Yawkey way]

Seams a waste and a shame
Look we all want that year where he had 60 shots at the sticks but that's prob not coming again
Cant see a spot for him up fwd and he's just depth now, doubt he would want to play at Sandy for the rest of his career

The only lousy seasons billings has had have been due to injury, plantar fasciitis ruined his free agency year when he played through with it and was bagged for not playing up to his usual standards. Since then he’s had back surgery, a fractured leg, a broken thumb and some soft tissue problems like most.

When Jack billings is fit Imo he’s a class above most on our list and easily best 22. Unlike our other small forwards if that’s where they choose to play him he can actually find plenty of the ball and is strong overhead. Trading him for a packet of chips is just dumb Imo, I hope he stays and kills it. Makes me shudder when I think of some of the plonkers we‘re keeping and shakes my trust in those making recruiting decisions.

 

[Ricmel]

When Jack billings is fit Imo he’s a class above most on our list and easily best 22.

Billings last full season was 2019, 4 going on 5 years ago. In 2017 or 2019 form, absolutely in our best 22.

Out of interest, if you were the decision maker at St Kilda, how much would you pay per year to keep Billings on the list?

My view on the guy is "no win". Can't see any club paying overs so is there any real value in pushing him out other than to clear a spot on the list? On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be spending very much coin at all to keep him on the list.

 

[Saintbloke]

Billings last full season was 2019, 4 going on 5 years ago. In 2017 or 2019 form, absolutely in our best 22.

Out of interest, if you were the decision maker at St Kilda, how much would you pay per year to keep Billings on the list?

My view on the guy is "no win". Can't see any club paying overs so is there any real value in pushing him out other than to clear a spot on the list? On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be spending very much coin at all to keep him on the list.

With any player, I think the club has to make hard decisions about how much money they have sitting in the stand or running around at Sandy, and how long they wait for the formula to be right. In business terms, I wouldn't be paying top dollar for an employee to be performing at a lower level than they once did a couple of years earlier- it would be a case of thanks, but please look for opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Ricmel]

With any player, I think the club has to make hard decisions about how much money they have sitting in the stand or running around at Sandy, and how long they wait for the formula to be right. In business terms, I wouldn't be paying top dollar for an employee to be performing at a lower level than they once did a couple of years earlier- it would be a case of thanks, but please look for opportunities elsewhere.

Yeah, you are right, that is my point. All very well to say Billings is one of most talented on our list but his output doesn't say that. Could be a result of body not right, confidence, role doesn't suit him. Doesn't matter, his output over the last 4 years has been C grade.

You have to think about what you are willing to pay for that (not the value of his 2017 form) and what is the opportunity cost of paying what you are willing to pay. Then you have to see if Billings himself is OK with the value you assign.

 

[BrutThough]

I CBF scrolling through the whole thread but can someone give me like a system out of 10 how likely all this stuff is

Gresh going
Clark going
Billings going
Coff going

Jordon in
Tomlinson in
Henry in
Gold Coast pick 4 in

Anything else I’ve missed?

Clark close to re signing as of Friday.

 

[PandaG]

No we shouldn’t be expecting it we should be demanding it

If the club and coaches aren’t expecting to improve from this year and go further into finals we have the wrong people in place

Jesus we have been crap for a decade no more excuses anymore. We have had our year of exploration

I can’t see us getting better or worse next year.
So depending on injuries and draw I think we again are a 6th-12th team.
Any expectation above that with the age profile and lack of dept is delusional.

 

[Yawkey way]

Billings last full season was 2019, 4 going on 5 years ago. In 2017 or 2019 form, absolutely in our best 22.

Out of interest, if you were the decision maker at St Kilda, how much would you pay per year to keep Billings on the list?

My view on the guy is "no win". Can't see any club paying overs so is there any real value in pushing him out other than to clear a spot on the list? On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be spending very much coin at all to keep him on the list.

Billings is absolutely worth every cent of what he’s getting, try replacing his production when fit for less. All that will happen here is we‘ll end up paying part of his salary to move him on just adding insult to injury.

If things fall our way with Gresham and Howard at least i can see the argument for it. Best case we wind up with two extra early picks and catapult our list forward with youth. What’s the logic on billings, we moved on a quality player and person for a packet of chips because we were bored with him being injured ?. I might add these aren’t the never ending three weeks calf/hamstring injuries. It’s the same with coffield why the hell are we playing hard ball with him when a two year offer probably gets it done.

I know it’s early but I’m starting to see excuses, talk of going backwards and some very uninspiring trades. They’d want to nail the draft because what’s coming in is a lot worse than what’s being mooted as going out. Gresham, Howard, coffield, Clark, billings all out sounds like a disaster to me. I hear the oh we wouldn‘t miss x or y, they don’t move the needle, they won’t be in our next premiership side . They may not be the A graders we wanted them to be but unless you can replace them with better you’re going backwards.

 

[PandaG]

There's a lot of pissing and moaning on here about trades and draft selections and selling players out cheap and then watching them hit their straps at their new club, all while seemingly missing the glaringly obvious - DEVELOPMENT!!

Ours has sucked for years !!!. Why? Standards. You all heard it come out as soon as RTB joined, the expectations lifted, and players were actually nervous about what the new coach would think of them. Humans are predictable, and most will take the path of least resistance, and do only what is asked or expected of them. If the coach doesn't expect much of you, guess what he gets.

The most basic human need is acceptance. Guess what players deliver if the coach DEMANDS the highest standard of effort, application and professionalism as the basis for their acceptance into the playing group? Drafting and trading deliver you the raw materials for a team, and yes, they are important. But all the kids getting into the AFL have some level of talent, whether or not they reach their full potential and get to fully exploit that talent is entirely a result of the environment they enter after the draft or trade period.

What moves we make this trade period, and which players we select with our eventual draft picks are only part of the equation. How we develop those playing talents and then how we chose to deploy those assets (game plan) are all part of the picture. We need to get it right across the board, and having seen the improvement this year, I am prepared to back the new leadership in their choices. That means that, as an example, if they decide that Howard is tradeable as the benefit of incoming draft picks helps improve our midfield, and the resultant improvement there offsets any detriment to our defence, then I will back them. This is a new regime, and what happened in the past, painful as it may be, is completely irrelevant. It is glaringly obvious that you need to keep playing finals to eventually break through and win the big one. We need to build with that in mind, and if that means developing a list for the next decade around Mitch, Pou, Marcus, NWM, King, etc, then so be it......

We can do that and still be trying to win a flag in the near future, they're not mutually exclusive.......

Yep
The difference between buying a rare orchid, throwing into the back yard and expecting/hoping it will grow, or potting it and nurturing it with the right sun, water and food. Yeah one or two may pop up in the back yard but the potted orchids are often magnificent.

Our development was abhorrent. No plan, no staff no strategic intent. Woeful.

Damion Carol has been a huge recruit

 

[L_W_P]

I CBF scrolling through the whole thread but can someone give me like a system out of 10 how likely all this stuff is

Gresh going
Clark going
Billings going
Coff going

Jordon in
Tomlinson in
Henry in
Gold Coast pick 4 in

Anything else I’ve missed?

All my opinion:

Gresh - 50/50 - Will depend on the offer from Essendon. If it's too low then we will match it, or even beat it, and I think he stays. If we get band 1 (1st round) or band 2 (end of 1st round) then I think he goes.

Clark - Staying. Has an offer on the table. Only club interested was North but they've moved on to Fisher and Dyl Stephens.

Billings - Staying. Not worth it to us in a trade so we back him in to regain form.

Coff - Unsure. The Lions interest is legit but they are also sounding out Doedee from the Crows as a free agent. A swap for Lohman would suit all parties but Brisbane would probably prefer Doedee and then a pick for Kai.

Jordan - Maybe. There will be a few teams have a look at him. Going to depend on the pitch from RTB and the team.

Tomlinson - Staying at Melbourne. Has been told he won't be traded and is their FB now with Petty being transitioned to the forward line next year.

Henry - 100% in. Will be some haggling over price. Rekon it's a F2nd special.

GC #4 - Don't think we have the ammo. Dogs and Dees will both offer multiple picks, including 1st rounders.

I'll add some:

Dow - 100% coming. Will be a late/token pick.

Goldstein - Unsure. He's spoken to the Bombers via Brad Scott but I think their offer was more is more of a playing coach alongside Draper where as ours is "break glass in emergency" should a forward or RoMa get hurt.

Howard - Will depend on our ability to get a replacement. If we can get someone like Clurey for free or Gardner cheap, then move Howard on for a 2nd rounder, I think we do it. If not then Howard stays and fights for a starting spot with Cordy.

 

[Yawkey way]

No we shouldn’t be expecting it we should be demanding it

If the club and coaches aren’t expecting to improve from this year and go further into finals we have the wrong people in place

Jesus we have been crap for a decade no more excuses anymore. We have had our year of exploration

Yep making excuses and moving the deck chairs around won’t cut the mustard.

 

[PandaG]

How

Footy is a pretty cool industry for the corporates, if you * things up majorly you get promoted instead of sacked… then move sideways to a different club to butcher…

"Sorry about the list and your draft capital, but is it cool if I become CEO now?"

How is the wonder kid and his mate Lade doing at the dogs?
Water always finds its level.

 

[Yawkey way]

All my opinion:

Gresh - 50/50 - Will depend on the offer from Essendon. If it's too low then we will match it, or even beat it, and I think he stays. If we get band 1 (1st round) or band 2 (end of 1st round) then I think he goes.

Clark - Staying. Has an offer on the table. Only club interested was North but they've moved on to Fisher and Dyl Stephens.

Billings - Staying. Not worth it to us in a trade so we back him in to regain form.

Coff - Unsure. The Lions interest is legit but they are also sounding out Doedee from the Crows as a free agent. A swap for Lohman would suit all parties but Brisbane would probably prefer Doedee and then a pick for Kai.

Jordan - Maybe. There will be a few teams have a look at him. Going to depend on the pitch from RTB and the team.

Tomlinson - Staying at Melbourne. Has been told he won't be traded and is their FB now with Petty being transitioned to the forward line next year.

Henry - 100% in. Will be some haggling over price. Rekon it's a F2nd special.

GC #4 - Don't think we have the ammo. Dogs and Dees will both offer multiple picks, including 1st rounders.

I'll add some:

Dow - 100% coming. Will be a late/token pick.

Goldstein - Unsure. He's spoken to the Bombers via Brad Scott but I think their offer was more is more of a playing coach alongside Draper where as ours is "break glass in emergency" should a forward or RoMa get hurt.

Howard - Will depend on our ability to get a replacement. If we can get someone like Clurey for free or Gardner cheap, then move Howard on for a 2nd rounder, I think we do it. If not then Howard stays and fights for a starting spot with Cordy.

If that’s how things end up it’s a lot easier to stomach.

 

[L_W_P]

Also with the Swans bringing in Grundy I rekon we should make a play for Peter Ladhams

19

Peter Ladhams

Age

27

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.8

5star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

21.0

5star

K

9.0

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.4

3star

.

Not a great tap but finds the footy and can kick a goal when pushed forward.

He's a poor man's RoMa but I can see the two of them playing well together and rotating between deep forward and on ball.