List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[StFly]

Are you Fair Dinkum asking that question? It has been answered 50 times on this thread.

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Here's to another 50 times and

 

[gringo2011]

The problem is of course how to facillitate change, we have few excess players in any position and few that other clubs will pay for, if we want players in we have to trade some out.

If other clubs want the obvious suspects, we would be negligent not taking the chance. Steele and Crouch are our two best mids, if we get Dow then Clark and Gresh fall even further down the pecking order. If Jones/Ross was fit we're talking about the 5th and 6th choice mids. Any improvement in Windhager, Mitch and Pou, we start talking about losing our 9th or 10th choice mids in the worst midfield in the competition.

It's a no brainer. We wait another season Clark and Gresh run a big chance of being VFL players with no trade value at all.

Ross, Harves, Lenny and Boris have carved a game plan that takes advantage of our strengths, foot speed, gut running, two way running, uncontested marking as we run the ground and whatever contested marking our forwards can manage. With creativity off half back, we depend on Marshall, Sinclair, Wood, Hill and NWM to create chances for our forwards. We play the way we do because it's our best chance of winning with the talent we have. It's great when it works but it's fragile and one dimensional and we were crushed by teams with good mids.

If we want to get better we have to make changes. Dow and Henry are just a nice start.

We're supporters, we support with passion but I can't help wonder whether we are supporters of St.Kilda F.C. or we are so denuded of success we become supporters of individual players. If we were looking at any other club with our problems, ie the worst midfield in the comp. Worse than the Eagles or Nth and and they could see us wringing our hands over losing our 5th and 6th best mids, we'd laugh at them for their delusions.

Clark and Gresh won't get better, our best choice is to take the opportunity, the chance on other players. We're already the worst midfield, our game plan is the way it is because our mids are the worst. Without a better midfield we are a one trick pony, we have to start somewhere and hiding under the doona because there's too much light out there and our dreams are so nice won't make anything better.

It's definitely not a no brainer. You literally don't have to take risks. What we have done is take risks and **** them up. Like a problem gambler we think we just need one more roll of the dice to turn it all around. Gresham is extremely unlikely to be out of the best 22. He was one of the few that looked up to speed in the finals we just played in.

Selling off mid 20s best 22 players for picks is risky and probably equally likely to end in a down grade or a bust as it is to get a good player. You are hoping that the 5% chance of an upgrade comes in and the .1% chance of a superstar with a pick around 15.

Clark makes sense to trade because he's not really come on as expected but no-one wants him so we are keeping him.

At the moment we are just making trades to do trades, not really building to a plan.

 

[Remboy]

Can someone explain to me why St.Kilda is interested in Shiel at his age? I thought that was another joke rumour from BigFooty, but it looks like it has been reported and talked about. Is it a salary dump?

No, we’re giving up pick 13 and giving him a pay rise and contract extension. Hes going to play until he’s 40.

 

[Moral Decay]

It's definitely not a no brainer. You literally don't have to take risks. What we have done is take risks and * them up. Like a problem gambler we think we just need one more roll of the dice to turn it all around. Gresham is extremely unlikely to be out of the best 22. He was one of the few that looked up to speed in the finals we just played in.

Selling off mid 20s best 22 players for picks is risky and probably equally likely to end in a down grade or a bust as it is to get a good player. You are hoping that the 5% chance of an upgrade comes in and the .1% chance of a superstar with a pick around 15.

Clark makes sense to trade because he's not really come on as expected but no-one wants him so we are keeping him.

At the moment we are just making trades to do trades, not really building to a plan.

If we keep doing what we are doing, we'll get the same result. I'd rather take the chance of being better than certainty of the same.

What would your plan be? Complain that we are crap and then be too afraid to try?

Surely the ethos of sport is to try, and if we fail we try again, we learn we adapt, we have another chance, we won't die if we try.

 

[gringo2011]

If we keep doing what we are doing, we'll get the same result. I'd rather take the chance of being better than certainty of the same.

What would your plan be? Complain that we are crap and then be to afraid to try?

We have been getting it right lately why start taking stupid risks again? I complain because of their incompetence and decision making.

 

[Bertha]

We have been getting it right lately why start taking stupid risks again? I complain because of their incompetence and decision making.

Sometimes before it's even happened too

 

[Moral Decay]

We have been getting it right lately why start taking stupid risks again? I complain because of their incompetence and decision making.

Oh I hadn't noticed us getting a flag let alone a threepeat. Is your measure of success so small?

Change isn't intrisically stupid and decisions have to be made regardless, the whole point is to make decisions and then see what happens. Did it work or didn't? Then try again.

Our midfield is deeply incompetent, doing nothing won't fix it, at least allow the opportunity for change for the chance of being better.

 

[kernelT]

No, we’re giving up pick 13 and giving him a pay rise and contract extension. Hes going to play until he’s 40.

We should have a perpetual ‘Dan Hannebery’ slush fund scholarship, where clubs looking to improve can dump their broken hacks and get a pick for the privilege.

When does Ed Curnow nominate us btw?

 

[Joffaboy]

We have been getting it right lately why start taking stupid risks again? I complain because of their incompetence and decision making.

You complain when we don't take the right draftees like Clark and Coff.
You complain when they are talked about as trade.
You say they have made good decisions lately but they are incompetent.
You pretend Gresham is being shopped when he shopped himself.
Mate you are all over the shop.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Remboy]

We should have a perpetual ‘Dan Hannebery’ slush fund scholarship, where clubs looking to improve can dump their broken hacks and get a pick for the privilege.

When does Ed Curnow nominate us btw?

I’ve heard that Hanners is feeling fresh after a year off. We‘ll use 12 to get him and 13 for Shiel. We’re going to own trade period.

 

[kernelT]

If we keep doing what we are doing, we'll get the same result. I'd rather take the chance of being better than certainty of the same.

What would your plan be? Complain that we are crap and then be too afraid to try?

Surely the ethos of sport is to try, and if we fail we try again, we learn we adapt, we have another chance, we won't die if we try.

What we’ve been doing for the last 10 years is flogging off good players for picks that we have royalty flushed. Something different would be holding on to our good players and not trading for top ups.
The main issue is that there doesn’t seem to be any consistent plan, one year it’s all about the draft so we trade out to get picks, the next year we’re all about trading in players who are supposedly the missing pieces of the puzzle.

 

[Premium]

You complain when we don't take the right draftees like Clark and Coff.
You complain when they are talked about as trade.
You say they have made good decisions lately but they are incompetent.
You pretend Gresham is being shopped when he shopped himself.
Mate you are all over the shop.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Feel sorry for a lot of these young guys , the managers pump them up full of b/s and in the end just gives them added pressure and could eventually destroy his career - see so many players come down with depression because of it.

 

[Plugger35]

That Dylan Shiel

9

Dylan Shiel

Age

32

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.6

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.1

3star

T

3.9

5star

MG

410.2

5star

D

23.4

5star

K

13.6

5star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.2

2star

T

3.4

4star

MG

334.4

5star

D

19.8

5star

K

8.4

4star

HB

11.4

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

/Gresham trade deal with Essendon sounds like it could be worthwhile for us but I'm always wary dealing with Essendon.

They've sold us down the river before, like when they sold us Andrew Lovett for a first round draft pick when they knew he was faulty goods.

We didn't even get a game out of the prick before we booted him out the door.

We only have ourselves to blame though for relying on character references from the likes of Hird and Sheedy, they saw us coming.

 

[Premium]

That Dylan Shiel/Gresham trade deal with Essendon sounds like it could be worthwhile for us but I'm always wary dealing with Essendon.

They've sold us down the river before, like when they sold us Andrew Lovett for a first round draft pick when they knew he was faulty goods.

We didn't even get a game out of the prick before we booted him out the door.

We only have ourselves to blame though for relying on character references from the likes of Hird and Sheedy, they saw us coming.

Carlisle was the same , but he played some footy for us.

 

[Parkysp]

That Dylan Shiel/Gresham trade deal with Essendon sounds like it could be worthwhile for us but I'm always wary dealing with Essendon.

They've sold us down the river before, like when they sold us Andrew Lovett for a first round draft pick when they knew he was faulty goods.

We didn't even get a game out of the prick before we booted him out the door.

We only have ourselves to blame though for relying on character references from the likes of Hird and Sheedy, they saw us coming.

At least we traded for better facilities...only took us a lost decade though

 

[Moral Decay]

What we’ve been doing for the last 10 years is flogging off good players for picks that we have royalty flushed. Something different would be holding on to our good players and not trading for top ups.
The main issue is that there doesn’t seem to be any consistent plan, one year it’s all about the draft so we trade out to get picks, the next year we’re all about trading in players who are supposedly the missing pieces of the puzzle.

And we got it wrong, so we try a different choice, we have the worst midfield in the comp.

We have the opportunity to trade out some guys that aren't our best mids, in an effort to maybe get something better in.

We literally cannot get worse but we might get better.

In the last ten years we've had Watters as coach, should we have stuck with him?
Should we have given Richo another 4 years?
Then same with Ratts, what about Pelchen?

The point of any crap decision is to learn from it. The only player we've traded out that was an obvious mistake was Benny Mac, we've certainly traded some bollocks in and wasted some maybe a lot of draft picks.

So we learn, we get the best we can and hope that when we work out that the player is not what we need we move on quickly.

We have the worst midfield in the comp. This is the consequence of all the crap drafting and trading for the last 10 years that you're complaining about.

Are you enjoying us being so crap that all you can do is wallow in the misery of how we got there?

Gresh and Clark are the 5th and 6th best mids in the worst midfield in the comp they are by definition not good players and trading them out isn't topping up with others. It's coming to our senses because somehow we have to get better.

 

[Plugger35]

At least we traded for better facilities...only took us a lost decade though

Hard to know what's more depressing about that photo, Andrew Lovett or the old decrepit facilities at Moorabbin in the background.

Thankfully we have improved since then in terms of facilities at least, we still have the same old decrepit coach though.

 

[Premium]

And Willie rioli does them

St C , have you noticed any kids in the draft that are playing WAFL this year.

 

[Saints43]

If he wants to leave, why would you stop him? Its not like he's Wilkie, Row, Nas, Owens. He's a player that can easily be replaced in the side.

Gresham was the 5th highest goal scorer in the team this year. How are you easily replacing those 21 goals?

 

[StCicatriz]

St C , have you noticed any kids in the draft that are playing WAFL this year.

Haven't been a lot unfortunately

 

[austinnn]

The problem is of course how to facillitate change, we have few excess players in any position and few that other clubs will pay for, if we want players in we have to trade some out.

If other clubs want the obvious suspects, we would be negligent not taking the chance. Steele and Crouch are our two best mids, if we get Dow then Clark and Gresh fall even further down the pecking order. If Jones/Ross was fit we're talking about the 5th and 6th choice mids. Any improvement in Windhager, Mitch and Pou, we start talking about losing our 9th or 10th choice mids in the worst midfield in the competition.

It's a no brainer. We wait another season Clark and Gresh run a big chance of being VFL players with no trade value at all.

Ross, Harves, Lenny and Boris have carved a game plan that takes advantage of our strengths, foot speed, gut running, two way running, uncontested marking as we run the ground and whatever contested marking our forwards can manage. With creativity off half back, we depend on Marshall, Sinclair, Wood, Hill and NWM to create chances for our forwards. We play the way we do because it's our best chance of winning with the talent we have. It's great when it works but it's fragile and one dimensional and we were crushed by teams with good mids.

If we want to get better we have to make changes. Dow and Henry are just a nice start.

We're supporters, we support with passion but I can't help wonder whether we are supporters of St.Kilda F.C. or we are so denuded of success we become supporters of individual players. If we were looking at any other club with our problems, ie the worst midfield in the comp. Worse than the Eagles or Nth and and they could see us wringing our hands over losing our 5th and 6th best mids, we'd laugh at them for their delusions.

Clark and Gresh won't get better, our best choice is to take the opportunity, the chance on other players. We're already the worst midfield, our game plan is the way it is because our mids are the worst. Without a better midfield we are a one trick pony, we have to start somewhere and hiding under the doona because there's too much light out there and our dreams are so nice won't make anything better.

Bravo sir. Well said. Not so sure Gresh is a mid anyway but I suppose when he is he probably is 4th or 5th best and as you say if we were observing another club with the worst midfield in the league hesitating over trading their 5th best mid we'd laugh.

All in.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Bravo sir. Well said. Not so sure Gresh is a mid anyway but I suppose when he is he probably is 4th or 5th best and as you say if we were observing another club with the worst midfield in the league hesitating over trading their 5th best mid we'd laugh.

All in.

Gresh is actually one of our best at clearances and contested possession.

 

[Plugger35]

I don't want to lose Gresham, I still think he has a lot to offer but I don't think he will be the A grader we all hoped he would be so if we can get a good offer for him I am open to the idea of offloading him.

Knowing our luck though he will turn into the A grader we all hoped he would be at another club like Acres has at Carlton.

Acres isn't quite an A grader yet but he is getting close to it.

 

[malevu]

Cordy was terrible against GWS. It was the first time that I've ever missed Doogs.

People got seriously seduced by a few solid Cordy games in defence late in the season. If anyone has got him penciled in as a defender in our best 22 next year and beyond, then I suggest you need to reassess.

The guy is a rung or two above spud level. I'll settle for 'useful spud.'

 

[austinnn]

What we’ve been doing for the last 10 years is flogging off good players for picks that we have royalty flushed. Something different would be holding on to our good players and not trading for top ups.
The main issue is that there doesn’t seem to be any consistent plan, one year it’s all about the draft so we trade out to get picks, the next year we’re all about trading in players who are supposedly the missing pieces of the puzzle.

Who are these good players we've been flogging off?

Since 2013:

Long - Suns
Acres - Freo
Dunstan - Dees
Hind - Bombers
Hickey - Eagles
H Goddard - Blues
Bruce - Dogs
Stuv - Cats
Newnes - Blues
Stanley - Cats

Any more?

Out of those, I'd suggest only the Stanley Acres and possibly Hickey deals have been detrimental.

At the time we sold them, neither Bruce nor Stuv were "good" players.

We haven't been great at managing our list in the last 10 years (or before that even) but we have generally held onto the few good players we've had until they retired. And look where that got us.