List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Ciao Giacomo]

From above article

2023 General forward Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Dustin Martin (Richmond)	94.4
2nd - Dylan Moore (Hawthorn)	90.9
3rd - Toby Greene (GWS Giants)	90.9
4th - Isaac Heeney (Sydney)	84.1
5th - Izak Rankine (Adelaide)

2023 Key forward Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Charlie Curnow (Carlton)	93
2nd - Taylor Walker (Adelaide)	89.6
3rd - Joe Daniher (Brisbane Lions)	84.2
4th - Charlie Dixon (Port Adelaide)	83
5th - Jeremy Cameron (Geelong)	82.7

2023 Key Defender Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - James Sicily (Hawthorn)	114.2
2nd - Jordan Ridley (Essendon)	94.9
3rd - Callum Wilkie (St Kilda)	93
4th - Harris Andrews (Brisbane Lions)	88.7
5th - Brennan Cox (Fremantle)	87.8

2023 Ruck Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Tim English (Western Bulldogs)	128
2nd - Rowan Marshall (St Kilda)	116.2
3rd - Max Gawn (Melbourne)	106.2
4th - Jarrod Witts (Gold Coast)	106.1
5th - Sean Darcy (Fremantle)	105.5

2023 General Defender Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Tom Stewart (Geelong)	113.6
2nd - Luke Ryan (Fremantle)	109.5
3rd - Dan Houston (Port Adelaide)	107.4
4th - Jack Sinclair (St Kilda)	105.9
5th - Harry Sheezel (North Melbourne)	99.5

2023 Midfielder-forward Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Jack Macrae (Western Bulldogs)	100
2nd - Shai Bolton (Richmond)	96.7
3rd - Caleb Daniel (Western Bulldogs)	92.9
4th - Sam Flanders (Gold Coast)	88.6
5th - Dayne Zorko (Brisbane Lions)

2023 Wing Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Errol Gulden (Sydney)	112
2nd - Josh Daicos (Collingwood)	93.3
3rd - Mason Wood (St Kilda)	91.3
4th - Nic Martin (Essendon)	88.1
5th - Steele Sidebottom (Collingwood)	87.5

2023 Midfielder Top 5​

Rank - Player	SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Marcus Bontempelli (Western Bulldogs)	129.5
2nd - Clayton Oliver (Melbourne)	122.9
3rd - Christian Petracca (Melbourne)	118.2
4th - Rory Laird (Adelaide)	116.8
5th - Zach Merrett (Essendon)	116.4

This has similar credibility to some of the tobacco companies research on the impact of smoking on health.

RoB gets 2 points for being the ninth best ruckman (according to CD) which means he is ninth out of 18 first choice ruckman. It undervalues midfielders and overvalues other positions. Then there is the crazy CD rating for players. I believe this Bigfooty Board undervalues Rory Laird but he sure ain’t the 4th best midfielder in the competition.

Flanders is in the top 5 for midfield forwards despite spending much of the year in the VFL. Charlie Dixon the 4th best key forward with Jeremy Cameron below him???

Sadly Champion Data analysis has become a total joke.

 

[119others]

This has similar credibility to some of the tobacco companies research on the impact of smoking on health.

RoB gets 2 points for being the ninth best ruckman (according to CD) which means he is ninth out of 18 first choice ruckman. It undervalues midfielders and overvalues other positions. Then there is the crazy CD rating for players. I believe this Bigfooty Board undervalues Rory Laird but he sure ain’t the 4th best midfielder in the competition.

Flanders is in the top 5 for midfield forwards despite spending much of the year in the VFL. Charlie Dixon the 4th best key forward with Jeremy Cameron below him???

Sadly Champion Data analysis has become a total joke.

mate i spent 10 mins of time cutting / pasting for anyone interested. perhaps i shouldnt bother but really not interested or wanting to hear about people complaining about articles that some others may find interesting from subs I have.

Perhaps just ignore it hey

 

[Vader]

mate i spent 10 mins of time cutting / pasting for anyone interested. perhaps i shouldnt bother but really not interested or wanting to hear about people complaining about articles that some others may find interesting from subs I have.

Perhaps just ignore it hey

To be fair, he's not having a go at you. He's having a go at Champion Data.

On SM-A5360 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

mate i spent 10 mins of time cutting / pasting for anyone interested. perhaps i shouldnt bother but really not interested or wanting to hear about people complaining about articles that some others may find interesting from subs I have.

Perhaps just ignore it hey

My apologies for hitting a raw nerve.

I found the information interesting and I never thought it would be inappropriate to comment on the methodology of the Champion Data analysis. I do have an issue with the Champion Data rating of players but the placing of The Pear is interesting. I believe that CD ratings place too much emphasis on previous seasons and not enough emphasis on the most recent season. This overrates older players and underrates emerging players.

 

[119others]

My apologies for hitting a raw nerve.

I found the information interesting and I never thought it would be inappropriate to comment on the methodology of the Champion Data analysis. I do have an issue with the Champion Data rating of players but the placing of The Pear is interesting. I believe that CD ratings place too much emphasis on previous seasons and not enough emphasis on the most recent season. This overrates older players and underrates emerging players.

All good man, and yes was definitely an over reaction by myself running late to drop off teen kid to work so sorry also, cheers

 

[Apsaalooke]

So Laird (4) > Butters (11) and Rozee (20)
JHF (59) just ahead of Sloane (60)

Anyone keen to post that on the Port board?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

My apologies for hitting a raw nerve.

I found the information interesting and I never thought it would be inappropriate to comment on the methodology of the Champion Data analysis. I do have an issue with the Champion Data rating of players but the placing of The Pear is interesting. I believe that CD ratings place too much emphasis on previous seasons and not enough emphasis on the most recent season. This overrates older players and underrates emerging players.

Do you understand how Champion Data compile their numbers ? .....or are you disagreeing based on your personal POV

 

[FR0GGY]

Do you understand how Champion Data compile their numbers ? .....or are you disagreeing based on your personal POV

Well any metric that puts Charlie Dixon above Jeremy Cameron has flaws.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Well any metric that puts Charlie Dixon above Jeremy Cameron has flaws.

It's a rough indicator, rather than exact science.

They should have had different weighting based on the % in each grouping rather than raw numbers. Far easier to be a top 10 ruckman than top 10 midfielder!

Eg.
4 points - top 20% of grouping
3 points - top 21%-40%
2 points - top 41%-60%
1 point - rest

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

Do you understand how Champion Data compile their numbers ? .....or are you disagreeing based on your personal POV

I disagree with the CD methodology. Their objective is to rank players based on the role that they play. Ruckman are fair enough since they are comparing ruckman with ruckman and the CD ranking is generally consistent with most observers. Other categories are often comparing apples with oranges. All inside mids are not the same and whilst defensive inside mids are important, line breaking inside mids win games/premierships.

I dispute the “general defender” category. In what universe is Sheezel and Sinclair‘s role the same as Tom Stewart and Luke Ryan. Similar story . The midfield forward category is another mixed bag.

To then double down and use ruckman, forward, defender and midfield categories to rank teams depth without adjusting for the numbers required and importance of the various roles is crazy imho.

 

[Mostyn]

I disagree with the CD methodology. Their objective is to rank players based on the role that they play. Ruckman are fair enough since they are comparing ruckman with ruckman and the CD ranking is generally consistent with most observers. Other categories are often comparing apples with oranges. All inside mids are not the same and whilst defensive inside mids are important, line breaking inside mids win games/premierships.

I dispute the “general defender” category. In what universe is Sheezel and Sinclair‘s role the same as Tom Stewart and Luke Ryan. Similar story . The midfield forward category is another mixed bag.

To then double down and use ruckman, forward, defender and midfield categories to rank teams depth without adjusting for the numbers required and importance of the various roles is crazy imho.

I think all that's true.

Except when it comes to any analysis that has us ahead of Port - in that case, it's absolutely faultless.

 

[rabidcrow]

This has similar credibility to some of the tobacco companies research on the impact of smoking on health.

RoB gets 2 points for being the ninth best ruckman (according to CD) which means he is ninth out of 18 first choice ruckman. It undervalues midfielders and overvalues other positions. Then there is the crazy CD rating for players. I believe this Bigfooty Board undervalues Rory Laird but he sure ain’t the 4th best midfielder in the competition.

Flanders is in the top 5 for midfield forwards despite spending much of the year in the VFL. Charlie Dixon the 4th best key forward with Jeremy Cameron below him???

Sadly Champion Data analysis has become a total joke.

Like all ratings and stats. You need to look a little deeper. Cameron for example was injured early in a game with dropped his average a few points , some players as we know (particularly defenders and midfielders - get a lot of cheap stats/points)


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I disagree with the CD methodology. Their objective is to rank players based on the role that they play. Ruckman are fair enough since they are comparing ruckman with ruckman and the CD ranking is generally consistent with most observers. Other categories are often comparing apples with oranges. All inside mids are not the same and whilst defensive inside mids are important, line breaking inside mids win games/premierships.

I dispute the “general defender” category. In what universe is Sheezel and Sinclair‘s role the same as Tom Stewart and Luke Ryan. Similar story . The midfield forward category is another mixed bag.

To then double down and use ruckman, forward, defender and midfield categories to rank teams depth without adjusting for the numbers required and importance of the various roles is crazy imho.

The players are categorised where they spend 70% of their game-time ......now there is balance that's brought to all players

Inside Mids generally have poor DE, but can compensate with tackling numbers .....outside mids have better DE, but generally poorer tackling numbers
Some kick more than handball ....others the reverse
Some kick long consistently ....others short kicks, more often than not ....and so on

So we're talking the best by zone, not the scrappers .....there is an evening up process in the stats i outlined , that allows for reasonable benchmarking

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

The players are categorised where they spend 70% of their game-time ......now there is balance that's brought to all players

Inside Mids generally have poor DE, but can compensate with tackling numbers .....outside mids have better DE, but generally poorer tackling numbers
Some kick more than handball ....others the reverse
Some kick long consistently ....others short kicks, more often than not ....and so on

So we're talking the best by zone, not the scrappers .....there is an evening up process in the stats i outlined , that allows for reasonable benchmarking

Do you believe

1) Laird is the 4th best midfielders the AFL, better than Dawson, Rosee, Butters, Neale etc?

2) Charlie Dixon is the 4th best Key Forward in the AFL?

3) Sam (I love playing in the VFL) Flanders is the 4th best midfielder/forward in the AFL?

4) Luke (Yes I’d like fries with my Big Mac) Ryan is the second best general defender in the AFL?

5) Dylan Moore is a better general forward than Toby Greene and Rankine?


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a CD inspired list.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Do you believe

1) Laird is the 4th best midfielders the AFL, better than Dawson, Rosee, Butters, Neale etc?

2) Charlie Dixon is the 4th best Key Forward in the AFL?

3) Sam (I love playing in the VFL) Flanders is the 4th best midfielder/forward in the AFL?

4) Luke (Yes I’d like fries with my Big Mac) Ryan is the second best general defender in the AFL?

5) Dylan Moore is a better general forward than Toby Greene and Rankine?


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a CD inspired list.

1) Laird is the 4th best midfielders the AFL, better than Dawson, Rosee, Butters, Neale etc?

Yes I do ....because of his tackling numbers & long kicking versus handballing

2) Charlie Dixon is the 4th best Key Forward in the AFL?

At first glance, seems strange .....it's based on averages, so no penalty for injury games .....but just checked & Dixon out performed Jeremy Cameron, even though Dixon only played 13 games

3) Sam (I love playing in the VFL) Flanders is the 4th best midfielder/forward in the AFL?

An anomaly .....Flanders went into the midfield late season ....he was never re-classified as a Mid, as the role change came after the final re-classifications

4) Luke (Yes I’d like fries with my Big Mac) Ryan is the second best general defender in the AFL?

Yes, had a magnificent year .....severely underrated player is Ryan

5) Dylan Moore is a better general forward than Toby Greene and Rankine?

Of course he was, based on his stats .....Greene / Rankine are lower possession / high impact players .....but the CD rating is based on quantification......ratings are loaded for game winning goals, however they occur infrequently

 

[FR0GGY]

At first glance, seems strange .....it's based on averages, so no penalty for injury games .....but just checked & Dixon out performed Jeremy Cameron, even though Dixon only played 13 games

On what metric
Average goals? Nope
Total goals
Average disposals? Nope
Average marks? Nope
Brownlow votes? Nope 13 v 3
Goal assists average? Nope
Score involvements? Nope 4th in afl vs 59th
Total score involvements? Nope 13th vs 197th
Meathead? Yep
And of course the totals put them ever further apart

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

On what metric
Average goals? Nope
Total goals
Average disposals? Nope
Average marks? Nope
Brownlow votes? Nope 13 v 3
Goal assists average? Nope
Score involvements? Nope 4th in afl vs 59th
Total score involvements? Nope 13th vs 197th
Meathead? Yep
And of course the totals put them ever further apart

Even alphabetically Dixon was behind Cameron

 

[Scorpus]

I disagree with the CD methodology. Their objective is to rank players based on the role that they play. Ruckman are fair enough since they are comparing ruckman with ruckman and the CD ranking is generally consistent with most observers. Other categories are often comparing apples with oranges. All inside mids are not the same and whilst defensive inside mids are important, line breaking inside mids win games/premierships.

I dispute the “general defender” category. In what universe is Sheezel and Sinclair‘s role the same as Tom Stewart and Luke Ryan. Similar story . The midfield forward category is another mixed bag.

To then double down and use ruckman, forward, defender and midfield categories to rank teams depth without adjusting for the numbers required and importance of the various roles is crazy imho.

Some of the explanations CD has put up for the rankings over the years have been highly questionable

I'm not sure whether it's still the case, but at one point they ranked uncontested possessions as literally worthless (zero contribution to a player's in-game ranking). They've also had bizarre anomalies where a player has kicked a bag of goals but been ranked worst on ground because CD rated dropping an uncontested mark as being as much a negative as kicking a goal is a positive

They've also acknowledged that there is little correlation between hitouts and winning games, yet frequently rank a team's ruck to be one of their best players, often overrating them

 

[Dockeroo]

Looks like you guys are getting a new toy.

Monaghan star Karl Gallagher to make AFL switch as he prepares to pen two-year deal with Adelaide Crows
Monaghan star Karl Gallagher to make AFL switch as he prepares to pen two-year deal with Adelaide Crows

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Looks like you guys are getting a new toy.

Monaghan star Karl Gallagher to make AFL switch as he prepares to pen two-year deal with Adelaide Crows
Monaghan star Karl Gallagher to make AFL switch as he prepares to pen two-year deal with Adelaide Crows

For some reason I though he had alesdy signed.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

On what metric
Average goals? Nope
Total goals
Average disposals? Nope
Average marks? Nope
Brownlow votes? Nope 13 v 3
Goal assists average? Nope
Score involvements? Nope 4th in afl vs 59th
Total score involvements? Nope 13th vs 197th
Meathead? Yep
And of course the totals put them ever further apart

Probably more hitouts as Ken kept using him in ruck, but in no universe is Dixon a better player currently than Cameron.

Champion Data should be used overall as a general guide, understanding that it's methodology is far from perfect.

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

For some reason I though he had laresdy signed.

Done deal but not official yet

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Done deal but not official yet

As long as the potential is there it's a smart move. An extra player.

Have we had a good Gallagher yet?

 

[1970crow]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-champion-data-reveals-the-deepest-lists-with-gws-carlton-and-collingwood-rated-highly/news-story/39d0af986dcaa95c401135384f13edc0

AFL: Champion Data reveals the deepest lists, with GWS, Carlton and Collingwood rated highly​

Halfway through the 2023 season, few would have expected the GWS Giants or Carlton to make finals, let alone shape finals.
The two clubs got on spectacular rolls and powered through to preliminary final losses.

While both clubs have superstars — Toby Greene at the Giants and Charlie Curnow at the Blues — they also have deep lists.

Champion Data has combed through each 2023 list and picked out the players rated in the top 50 in every position to help discover the best depth.

It’s no surprise that Collingwood finished with the most players inside the top 50 in their respective position, with the Pies winning the flag in September thanks to a perfect spread of contributors.


Instead of just listing how many players made the grade, each club has been ranked by depth.

To rank all 18 clubs, points were assigned per player bracket within the top 50, with three points per top-10 player, two points for players ranked 11-30 and one point for those ranked 31-50.

For example, GWS had seven top-10 players (for 21 points), six ranked 11-30 (12 points) and nine ranked 31-50 (nine points) to equal a total of 42.

When two teams were tied, the tie-breaker came down to the team with more total players ranked inside the top 50 per position.

The depth analysis is based on 2023 lists, so retirees like Isaac Smith (rated the seventh-best mid-forward in the game) or players traded like Lachie Schultz (eighth-best general forward) remain counted to their 2023 clubs.

Only players who played at least 12 games qualified, with rankings based on ranking points.

Check out where your clubs sits in the depth charts, from the high-flyers to the cellar dwellers needing more contributors.

1. GWS GIANTS​

Depth analysis points: 42

Top 10 players: 7, Top 11-30 players: 6, Top 31-50 players: 9, Total players: 22

POSITIONAL BREAKDOWN

Defenders – Top 10: 3, Top 11-30: 2, Top 31-50: 2

Midfielders – Top 10: 1, Top 11-30: 4, Top 31-50: 1

Forwards – Top 10: 3, Top 11-30: 0, Top 31-50: 6

Top 10 players: Toby Greene (3rd – gen fwd), Kieren Briggs (6th – ruck), Lachie Whitfield (9th – gen def), Sam Taylor (9th – key def), Brent Daniels (10th – gen fwd), Harry Himmelberg (10th – key def), Jesse Hogan (10th – key fwd)

2. CARLTON​

Depth analysis points: 42

3. COLLINGWOOD​

Depth analysis points: 41

4. MELBOURNE​

Depth analysis points: 40

5. BRISBANE LIONS​

Depth analysis points: 39

6. ADELAIDE (equal 5th)​

Depth analysis points: 39

Top 10: 6, Top 11-30: 9, Top 31-50: 3, Total: 18

Defenders – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 3

Midfielders – Top 10: 3, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 0

Forwards – Top 10: 3, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 0

Top 10 players: Taylor Walker (2nd – key fwd), Rory Laird (4th – mid), Izak Rankine (5th – gen fwd), Ben Keays (7th, gen fwd), Jordan Dawson (8th, mid), Reilly O’Brien (9th – ruck)

Crows fans will tell you they should have made finals — if not for a certain poster — and our rankings show why.

Adelaide has six top-10 players, a figure only bettered by GWS.

Izak Rankine landed in the top five. Picture: Daniel Pockett/Getty Images
Josh Rachele (11th, general forward) was just outside that top-10 and should jump in soon.

Adelaide showed it can be a deadly attacking side in 2023 but needs a boost in defence, with Josh Worrell (15th, key defender) the highest-rated backman despite only playing 12 games.

Veteran Rory Sloane fell to the 60th-ranked midfielder.


Then

Sydney
Richmond
Bullies
Horks
Freo
Geelong
Essendon

14. PORT ADELAIDE (very surprised so low including low ranked players like Rozee)​

Depth analysis points: 33

Top 10: 3, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 8, Total: 19

Defenders: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 4

Midfielders: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2

Forwards: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2

Top 10 players: Dan Houston (3rd – gen def), Charlie Dixon (4th – key fwd), Jeremy Finlayson (6th – key fwd)

Is Port Adelaide the team that won 13 games in a row and looked like a premiership contender or the team that got swept aside to a straight-sets finals exit?

These numbers suggest Ken Hinkley’s men are closer to the latter.

Zak Butters (11th, midfielder) and Connor Rozee (20th, midfielder) have better reputations than their rankings, while Jeremy Finlayson (sixth, key forward) is the opposite.

The Power midfield is probably another year or two away — Jason Horne-Francis was ranked 59th among midfielders and Ollie Wines 54th.

If their weapons become true top-10 players, the Power will be contenders.
But this list has some holes that need to be plugged, with their bevy of recruits not rating highly either.


St Kilda - also seems low
Gold Coast - ditto
West Coast
Kangas

talk about a load of rubbish.

 

[1970crow]

Yes I do ....because of his tackling numbers & long kicking versus handballing


At first glance, seems strange .....it's based on averages, so no penalty for injury games .....but just checked & Dixon out performed Jeremy Cameron, even though Dixon only played 13 games


An anomaly .....Flanders went into the midfield late season ....he was never re-classified as a Mid, as the role change came after the final re-classifications


Yes, had a magnificent year .....severely underrated player is Ryan


Of course he was, based on his stats .....Greene / Rankine are lower possession / high impact players .....but the CD rating is based on quantification......ratings are loaded for game winning goals, however they occur infrequently

stats? Don't you watch with your eyes?