List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[SaintsofSteel]

SOS how can our two most promising young midfielders remain uncontracted?

Putin a manic Saints supporter just put out a press release -

"Comrades he better get them done or he will be sending a 'SOS' from the front line wearing a Collingwood jumper. Or he will be forced to drink my special vodka his choice".

 

[_Maximus_12]

Losing Windy and Naz and bringing in TDK and Aleer would be a disaster.

Regardless of the reasoning. Sends a terrible message and undies heaps of development and recruiting.

This is overblown. If windy goes, it’s because he thinks he’s worth more than what we do.
If NAS goes, it’s because he wants to go home.
Bringing in TDK & Aleer are moves necessary to improve our list and give us a better shot at contending. Losing Nas will bloody hurt, but it’s in no way linked to bringing in talent. In fact, I’d suggest the clubs eagerness to bring in talent is a factor that is helping his cause to stay.
Retaining Windy is important, yes, but he needs to establish himself in one specific role for a prolonged period before he can demand anything more than 2-3 years on the average player salary.

 

[Ads734]

This is overblown. If windy goes, it’s because he thinks he’s worth more than what we do.
If NAS goes, it’s because he wants to go home.
Bringing in TDK & Aleer are moves necessary to improve our list and give us a better shot at contending. Losing Nas will bloody hurt, but it’s in no way linked to bringing in talent. In fact, I’d suggest the clubs eagerness to bring in talent is a factor that is helping his cause to stay.
Retaining Windy is important, yes, but he needs to establish himself in one specific role for a prolonged period before he can demand anything more than 2-3 years on the average player salary.

Okay explain this to me though. All the things we claim Windy hasn’t done , neither has Alir and to a much lower level.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

So it well may end up Nas for Rozee and a packet of condoms

 

[_Maximus_12]

Okay explain this to me though. All the things we claim Windy hasn’t done , neither has Alir and to a much lower level.

Let me start by saying I rate windy, and I think he’s valuable to our future.

There’s a myriad of differences re Leek vs Windy but I’ll give you a couple because I’m lazy and cbf typing this morning.

Leek plays a totally different role, one of significant need for us moving forward. He is playing for a side that contends, and contains the best defender in the league and some very good supporting talls. He’s very high upside IMO & naturally it costs more to pull players out of their club.

Despite this being his most consistent season at the club, he’s yet to solidify himself as a genuine midfielder and someone who’ll hold down a role in the future. If we look at our current list (as of today) we have Wilson, Pou, Nas & Hugo who are high upside mids at AFL level. Each of which have demonstrated they can find it (be it AFL of VFL level) without playing a run with role. I suspect the club will settle Travaglia in defence if we retain Nas which is why I haven’t mentioned him. We have Steele, Macrae & Sinclair as senior statesmen who will help nurture the above group for the next 2-3 years, alongside the likes of Dow & Hunter Clark.

So the question right now is, does Windhager develop into a ball winning, not a run with mid? I think personally he’s worth 3x$500k and we give him the chance to win a big contract in a few years time but we can’t have everyone of our young kids getting paid big money when we’re a developing side.

And now I’ve typed more than I said I would.

 

[gringo2011]

And if we continue to overpay players we’ll find ourselves in salary cap strife sooner rather than later. They’re not players at their “big” payday yet.

Paying Windy $500 to $700 x 2 years is not denting the cap. $1.7 for a B grade ruck for 7 years could pay for a lot of Windhagers. $750k for a fringe back man hurts too.

There is discipline and stupidity. You can't cheer on the irresponsible then snap the wallet closed for everyone else. You could pay five and half Windhagers on the wage of those 2 players who are not massively better players than him. The current average AFL wage is around $460k. It will probably increase by 100k as the new cap filters through.

Guys like Owens, Windhager etc are all probably worth that sort of coin give or take $100k. If we are offering him $300k or a minimal short contract he's rightly going to feel undervalued.

 

[Sully111]

Retaining Windy is important, yes, but he needs to establish himself in one specific role for a prolonged period before he can demand anything more than 2-3 years on the average player salary.

It's up to the club to figure out which role best suits him, then develop him and play him there.

Windy either has it or he doesn't. If we have top tier people at our club they should be able to figure out which applies to him, and if the answer is positive, back him in.

I absolutely believe he has it in him to be a very very good player. I feel the fact he's not further along by now is on the coaches.

 

[gringo2011]

Well maybe that’s what he’s trying to do.
I’d imagine if Windy isn’t happy with the first offer, there’ll be some negotiating happening.
But we have to keep the future in mind. If all our potential young players come good - and it’s looking fairly likely, we’re going to have a squeeze sooner rather than later.

At the moment he's unable to sign existing players up. Off chasing GOPs and on the verge of causing irreversible damage to the list. There is a very real possibility that he rips up 5 years of momentum and sends us to the bottom 4 for an extended period.

You can't have it both ways. Chasing TDK is good management but keeping your own players for an extra $100k is irresponsible. You keep saying how TDK isn't a problem because he'll only be on $1.2 million after we front load him.

There is no point in grabbing TDK if we lose Nas and Windhager.

 

[gringo2011]

So you reckon Windy should be on 750k ? That’s what Aleer reported to be offered if true …

I don't think we'd have to because players take a bit less to stay if happy. He's probably worth that at another club though. He's about to hit his straps and probably about where Caldwell was at when he moved. Probably sits somewhere around the adjusted average wage of $500k to me.

If we wanted to replace him he'd cost us more in wages and trade capital. This group of early 20s guys are all in the sharp improvement age bracket and are about to step into the mid career range of players that we have a huge hole in. If SOS can't start locking away the players we have developed he's out of his depth and needs to go.

 

[_Maximus_12]

It's up to the club to figure out which role best suits him, then develop him and play him there.

Windy either has it or he doesn't. If we have top tier people at our club they should be able to figure out which applies to him, and if the answer is positive, back him in.

I absolutely believe he has it in him to be a very very good player. I feel the fact he's not further along by now is on the coaches.

I think he does too, but he’s still learning his craft. It’s evident the game doesn’t come as easy to him as it does to some others. I think he needs to be patient with his own development. I don’t think it’s on the coaches totally though, some players figure it out faster than others and he’s absolutely working on his game behind the scenes.
I can see a world where he is a reliable mid, but I can also see a world where he doesn’t make it as a midfielder.

 

[gringo2011]

Earlier in the year I was actually pretty ok with letting Windy go

He's not a star. A lot of people didn't even know where his best position was a couple months ago. Has a glaring weakness with his kicking under pressure. He seemed 'replaceable' with the likes of Tobie, Boxshall, Garcia, Hastie, Hall etc. coming through

But what he has become is an ultra reliable role player. Can play literally anywhere on the ground and will always make an impact. If there isn't a niche role for him on matchday, he just slots onto a wing and racks up his 25+ touches. I've said it before but he's an 'enabler' for the likes of NWM to thrive. Perhaps more importantly, he seems like one of the guys who has this group glued together - he, NWM, and Owens are the bridge between Steele & co and Pou & co IMO

Every premiership side has these role players who are absolutely adored by the coaches. It's the loss of the intangibles that will really really hurt the team if Windy leaves. He's still also just 22 so plenty of time to establish himself even further

He's tracking along the same lines as most of the good mids in the comp at the same age. Watching game highlights you realise how his quick handballs out to players moving past, smart kicks inside 50 and attacking nous contribute a lot more than you realise. His disposal efficiency is better than a lot of the good mids at the same age weirdly.

All lists need about 5 Elite to A grade players and then a big group of B graders. To me worst case Windhager settles as a solid B who can play a range of roles from HBF, inside mid, wing, HFF or defensive minder.

To me he's one that should have been locked away ages ago.

 

[botts]

Surely we can find an extra 100g for windy to make him happy. If we have the biggest war chest in history. It would be embarrassing if it cost us heart and soul players. If nas leaves and I’m TDK I almost would want to come. He’s going to get blamed for it regardless if it’s his fault or not

 

[gringo2011]

I can understand paying overs for TDK since he is a free agent so no trading. He's worth $1m I'd suggest, so overs should be $1.3m (ish).

Leek needs a trade, hes played 20odd games, bringing in a still raw 24 year old on more money than 90% of our under 25s if genuinely stupid mismanagement of our list.

I got laughed at months ago when I suggested there may be issues with this young group if a valuable and super popular member of the group gets lowballed. Sure, its hearsay, but how can you possibly build a list this way and not expect backlash.

Honestly, weve gone to the media saying we are targeting bayside kids. We haven't attracted one since, Mt Martha isn't bayside.

We've gone to the media bragging about the biggest war chest in history, only to put $2.5m into 2 somewhat polarising and still speculative players. All the while we seem to be lowballing the talent our recruiters have been able to find/develop.

This has the potential to blow up the list to the point where we may as well fold with Tasmania killing the draft for the next 5 years.

There is nothing about TDK that suggests he should be on more than about $900k and that's with him being in a role that is harder to fill. The only thing going for him is that the AFL may bring back the long run up for rucks and his leap might be an advantage.

 

[Joffaboy]

Paying Windy $500 to $700 x 2 years is not denting the cap. $1.7 for a B grade ruck for 7 years could pay for a lot of Windhagers. $750k for a fringe back man hurts too.

There is discipline and stupidity. You can't cheer on the irresponsible then snap the wallet closed for everyone else. You could pay five and half Windhagers on the wage of those 2 players who are not massively better players than him. The current average AFL wage is around $460k. It will probably increase by 100k as the new cap filters through.

Guys like Owens, Windhager etc are all probably worth that sort of coin give or take $100k. If we are offering him $300k or a minimal short contract he's rightly going to feel undervalued.

Not trying a gotcha or start an argument but what would be your response if we found out we had offered him say 575k over two years but he wanted four and allowed his manager to leak he had been 'lowballed'?

 

[gringo2011]

Sadly this is SOS. We also have one of the best recruiters in the biz

Hopefully he's still good. His best work was at the Dogs and they actually seem to be just as good since he left if not better. Dogs could make a premiership side out of players they've lost in the last 10 years.

Chad Warner was his only really outstanding find at Sydney, most of his other hits there were free hits at academy or FS.

 

[Yawkey way]

This is overblown. If windy goes, it’s because he thinks he’s worth more than what we do.
If NAS goes, it’s because he wants to go home.
Bringing in TDK & Aleer are moves necessary to improve our list and give us a better shot at contending. Losing Nas will bloody hurt, but it’s in no way linked to bringing in talent. In fact, I’d suggest the clubs eagerness to bring in talent is a factor that is helping his cause to stay.
Retaining Windy is important, yes, but he needs to establish himself in one specific role for a prolonged period before he can demand anything more than 2-3 years on the average player salary.

Windhager has played every game this year including a 36 disposal ripper in a loss to the swans.

He gets the tagging unglamorous roles but he’s improved a lot this season and is imo a genuine mid. So our locally grown 22 year old with 72 games deserves bare average while we pay a Aleer who can’t play and is two years older with 20 odd games to his name big money on a long contract.

Honesty I can’t figure out if you’re trolling or serious. If we follow your logic and he walks don’t ever complain again about us being a lousy team because you’re cheering on the madness. TDK is a massive mistake and so is Aleer, ones a decent player getting double his worth, the other is a vfl player.

 

[gringo2011]

Not trying a gotcha or start an argument but what would be your response if we found out we had offered him say 575k over two years but he wanted four and allowed his manager to leak he had been 'lowballed'?

It probably wouldn't be a bad deal for us to be honest but fair that we hold our ground too. I guess it depends on how much others offer him. If he's offered $750 at WC he probably moves. We have to make a call at that point. Would we be able to get a better player with what ever we get in a trade?

 

[Joffaboy]

There is nothing about TDK that suggests he should be on more than about $900k and that's with him being in a role that is harder to fill. The only thing going for him is that the AFL may bring back the long run up for rucks and his leap might be an advantage.

About right, but we need to overpay to get him to move.
Looking at this in isolation, we are basically buying a frdp with the extra money we are offering.

 

[MrFoster]

At the moment he's unable to sign existing players up. Off chasing GOPs and on the verge of causing irreversible damage to the list. There is a very real possibility that he rips up 5 years of momentum and sends us to the bottom 4 for an extended period.

You can't have it both ways. Chasing TDK is good management but keeping your own players for an extra $100k is irresponsible. You keep saying how TDK isn't a problem because he'll only be on $1.2 million after we front load him.

There is no point in grabbing TDK if we lose Nas and Windhager.

If TDK’s contract is averaging $1.2M a year after front loading the first 2 years, it’s not a lot mored to $900k Marshall is on..

And if Nas and Windy leave, we’ll only lose if the club get screwed in a trade, which I don’t think we will. We lost a 50 goal key forward Bruce for peanuts, that was bad.

 

[gringo2011]

Presumably St Kilda have put firm offers to both. If so, giving them the flick now would mean that you can forget bringing to in players from other clubs in future years as Players Mangaers will regard us as a Club that cannot be trusted.


Personally I think Nas has already made up his mind. He has generous offers, and he will either being going back to SA if he feels the pull of family too much, or he wil stay (but may still be tossing up on the lenght he commits too).



I have no idea what he has been offered, But I know that it has been upped. It ma or ma not already be at that level.

It may be that Windy believes he is worth more than the sum you mentioned. Wind is say a B List Player at present, but he ma want A List money.



I have no knowledge if a club is interested, and especially at the price you want.

Probably better value could be had ina player trade. Maybe we could swap Steele for Liam Ran as an example?



Agree.




If the mooted new ruck rule favouring leaping rucks come back in then Marshall will struggle at the CBs.

The idea that we would kill any future trade is made up on here. The way Dunstan left the club and us not even calling Caldwell's management after we signed Crouch should have made us on the no trade list but hasn't.

If we made an offer to TDK with no clauses we are a very dumb club. What if he does a knee that never comes good? His extraordinarily ordinary form should be an out.

 

[MrFoster]

About right, but we need to overpay to get him to move.
Looking at this in isolation, we are basically buying a frdp with the extra money we are offering.

Only if we manage to trade Marshall to Geelong for a first round pick.

 

[gringo2011]

About right, but we need to overpay to get him to move.
Looking at this in isolation, we are basically buying a frdp with the extra money we are offering.

Maybe. More likely we swap Marshall for Aleer. It will probably be a pick around 30 from Geelong by the time all the levellers are taken out and that's if they want him badly enough. Losing players like Marshall looks absolutely stupid. He plays to win. TDK picks and as chooses when he turns up. We'll regret losing him.

 

[Yawkey way]

I don't think we'd have to because players take a bit less to stay if happy. He's probably worth that at another club though. He's about to hit his straps and probably about where Caldwell was at when he moved. Probably sits somewhere around the adjusted average wage of $500k to me.

If we wanted to replace him he'd cost us more in wages and trade capital. This group of early 20s guys are all in the sharp improvement age bracket and are about to step into the mid career range of players that we have a huge hole in. If SOS can't start locking away the players we have developed he's out of his depth and needs to go.

My son in law whose a Carlton tragic claims sos ruined carlton and he has some valid points.

He’s probably safe as long as Ross is but if this all goes south RTB is finished, some point in 2027 would be my bet.

 

[Yawkey way]

Only if we manage to trade Marshall to Geelong for a first round pick.

Which will be how late if it happens at all.

 

[Sully111]

The whole benefit of a supposed war chest should be to retain and best players and bring in top line players who improve us.

Aleer? FMD

TDK? I don't know. Might be very good but that's silly money, particularly if it affects what we can offer other players going forward.

As stated by someone earlier, bringing in Aleer and TDK and losing Nas and Windy would be a disaster. Absolutely shocking outcome for the club. Sos should be shown the door, and Ross should be on very shaky ground at best.