List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part IV

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 4

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[ScrappyDo]

If we pay a future second for Aleer we’ve lost the plot. He’s barely best 22 next year.

Then we switch the names with the same deal.

 

[gringo2011]

I think Prestia is a good comparison of what we think Flanders can become for us. Richmond paid a lot for him but he helped them to flags so no one cares about the cost now.

It may be one we look back at and think we paid overs but we weren't getting him much cheaper.

If he was at a high profile club you’d be paying another FRDP. His 2024 in Melbourne would have had so much hype it would have been ridiculous.

Even if he doesn’t recapture that form he’s still below value as a trade. NAS has had an elite season and is now the highest paid player in history.

No other Saint on our list under 25 has had a recent elite season and if they had we’d be demanding a king’s ransom

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Aleer should not cost us much at all, we can get him for free in the PSD

If the offer is on the lower side of what’s been rumoured then I would imagine someone like Port or North would nab him.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Yeah, while I’m big on Dodzilla, we are still talking about being number 1 ruck for a period of time if something happens. So that’s against the monsters and potentially in big games that shape our season. He may well be able to do enough to suck it up for a year.

Seeing a couple of snippets just earlier and the reminder of Keeler being non competitive in marking contests - I just don’t see him being able to do enough if he was in a huge game against a Cameron or Meek or someone. That’s just not his go.

So I’d be surprised if someone with some experience wasn’t slapped on the list over summer. I think the Boyd concept makes sense, they just didn’t execute on who they selected. There are more than 40 list spots, so having a third ruckman (Keeler a forward / second ruck to me) isn’t crazy.

Im sorry Tommy but I am wholly against having list cloggers to fill in just in case. Boyd was the classic example of a wasted list position, he was horrible when given opportunities and was a complete misuse of a list spot. If we can find a backup with a pulse it would be reasonable, but they are just not out there.

Who knows we might offer Heath a contract and he choses to remain, at least we know he still has improvement ahead.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah, while I’m big on Dodzilla, we are still talking about being number 1 ruck for a period of time if something happens. So that’s against the monsters and potentially in big games that shape our season. He may well be able to do enough to suck it up for a year.

Seeing a couple of snippets just earlier and the reminder of Keeler being non competitive in marking contests - I just don’t see him being able to do enough if he was in a huge game against a Cameron or Meek or someone. That’s just not his go.

So I’d be surprised if someone with some experience wasn’t slapped on the list over summer. I think the Boyd concept makes sense, they just didn’t execute on who they selected. There are more than 40 list spots, so having a third ruckman (Keeler a forward / second ruck to me) isn’t crazy.

Young rucks don’t collapse half way through a game. They generally get tired. If you play Dodson in 2 week blocks with three weeks from Keeler you keep them fresh. Just use them sparingly out of the centre and fill in with Hammer types too. Plenty of premiers have had absolutely crap rucks.

 

[Hayes4PM]

The prospect of Flanders being traded to St Kilda started with Graeme Allan mentioning casually to a Suns’ official fairly early in the season that the club might be interested in him.

The Age -

To be fair, I'm pretty sure "mentioning casually" is a formal enquiry for Gubby...

 

[The_Steadier]

Aleer should not cost us much at all, we can get him for free in the PSD

I would love it if we went the psd route for aleer.

I'm ok with us getting him.

But if someone with a psd pick before us was willing to match our offer and steal him- I'd be totally fine with that.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Bring on Day 4

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Im sorry Tommy but I am wholly against having list cloggers to fill in just in case. Boyd was the classic example of a wasted list poistion, he was horrible when given opportunities and was a complete misuse of a list spot. If we can find a backup with a pulse it would be reasonable, but they are just not out there.

Who knows we might offer Heath a contract and he choses to remain, at least we know he still has improvement ahead.

I think we’re all against that outcome, SS! Who knows what they can find. Have to laugh if the Dockers pick him up.

 

[gringo2011]

Open debate is good for deciding who leads your country but in a footy forum where opinions make no difference it’s less important.

This is a golden time for the club, and if anyone is more pessimistic than optimistic now they should have earnt your ignore rights.

Don’t water the weeds, you’ll enjoy the wildflowers much more.

I’m optimistic this time but people can do what they want. It’s a massive gamble that could win us a flag or entrench mediocrity. There are no guarantees in life and some people are cautious and some are risk takers. There isn’t a right or wrong way to view it and expecting everyone to share yours is arrogant or a religion.

 

[Hayes4PM]

So according to Tom "Liquor Licence" Morris, the AFL "must use 2 first round picks every 5 years" rule has been given a mulligan for 2023 and 2024... So anyone who has already traded out their 1st rounders in the last 2 years only need to use 2 in the next 5 years...

So AFL "MUST use a pick every 5 years! Wait... ok 7 years!!!!". Seems like they're going to water on this.

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

Not saying we shouldn’t have a toys out cot moment every once in a while, I recall a recent norf loss where I ‘lost’ my scarf in a bin.

Just think this isn’t the time. We won trade period.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I fully agree with your post, I was trying to support what you were saying by parody

 

[MordySaint]

I’m optimistic this time but people can do what they want. It’s a massive gamble that could win us a flag or entrench mediocrity. There are no guarantees in life and some people are cautious and some are risk takers. There isn’t a right or wrong way to view it and expecting everyone to share yours is arrogant or a religion.

What we have this time is a genuine star in NWM.

Our previous re-builds were done on hope that one of the young players would go on to be a star.

This time we are building around a player or a core of players.

I'm pretty buoyant that this will work this time (barring any major catastrophes)

 

[tony74]

I think the tone and intention of the meeting has been miss reported by the media.

Surely it was just a respectful meeting about this is where you sit at the moment and if you do want to move somewhere where there is going to be more midfield opportunity than we would facilitate it.

I doubt it was a pack your bags and find a new home direction.

1000%

 

[AFaiL]

A really important factor in recent flag winning teams has been depth. Right now, if we keep Ro and Steele, we maintain that. We could afford to shed Jack but tbh, i'd rather he is called up opposed to 21yo when the crunch comes, he is class and a soldier. If we are to have a genuine crack, we need to allow for injuries.

Trading Ro puts us firminly in the TDK or bust camp. To be fair, we were Ro or bust since Paddy retired but this losing him is a sideways move when it comes to list management and depth. He is on relatively small coin, so shedding him isnt wise. And don't tell me Dodson is ready.

1997 and 2000 we lost Spider and Paddy and it showed. We have the chance to retain a brilliant ruck option, so we absolutely should. Again, low cost and he can absolutely play alongside TDK

 

[AFaiL]

On our current strategy being a "risk" ... how so? It is onlk seen that way becuase the AFL media and public think trading and spending cap money isnt the right way and you must toil away at the draft until you get 22 guns... Absolute HORSE S***

Every succesfulk team has had a big blend of draftees, FAs, trades and wildcard rookies

The reason its being posed as a 'risk' is so the media can rip us down if we don't win a flag becuase they want us to remain shit.

Geelong/Hawks do it and suddenly its brilliance. The Hawks had a 34yo win their BnF, in many other teams that is seen as a very concerning factor.

We need to soend the cap money and we need to fill the list. Who gives a tinkers cuss how we do it? Draft? Trade? Off the street? It is ALL risk

The obsession with getting a free pass for drafting 18yos is a joke. Have a look at North... Genuine no mans land.

 

[Saintbloke]

A really important factor in recent flag winning teams has been depth. Right now, if we keep Ro and Steele, we maintain that. We could afford to shed Jack but tbh, i'd rather he is called up opposed to 21yo when the crunch comes, he is class and a soldier. If we are to have a genuine crack, we need to allow for injuries.

Trading Ro puts us firminly in the TDK or bust camp. To be fair, we were Ro or bust since Paddy retired but this losing him is a sideways move when it comes to list management and depth. He is on relatively small coin, so shedding him isnt wise. And don't tell me Dodson is ready.

1997 and 2000 we lost Spider and Paddy and it showed. We have the chance to retain a brilliant ruck option, so we absolutely should. Again, low cost and he can absolutely play alongside TDK

Where do we hide all the depth players- do TDK and Ro play together in the same team, does Steele and all our younger mids play in the same team on the day. Not sure where they're all going fit.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah, Aaron was fantastic when he wasn't injured

He was the perfect tough big brother for Rooey and Kosi. He was a B grader but lead from the front and was first in at everything. B grade talent but elite application.

 

[sammm]

Clarkson has been a cancer there since day dot.

They are in quicksand with him and Rawlings still at the club.

Odds on Clarkson paid out by the end of '26

Why do you think that.? I would have thought clarkson would have been good for thrm

 

[gringo2011]

On our current strategy being a "risk" ... how so? It is onlk seen that way becuase the AFL media and public think trading and spending cap money isnt the right way and you must toil away at the draft until you get 22 guns... Absolute HORSE S***

Every succesfulk team has had a big blend of draftees, FAs, trades and wildcard rookies

The reason its being posed as a 'risk' is so the media can rip us down if we don't win a flag becuase they want us to remain shit.

Geelong/Hawks do it and suddenly its brilliance. The Hawks had a 34yo win their BnF, in many other teams that is seen as a very concerning factor.

We need to soend the cap money and we need to fill the list. Who gives a tinkers cuss how we do it? Draft? Trade? Off the street? It is ALL risk

The obsession with getting a free pass for drafting 18yos is a joke. Have a look at North... Genuine no mans land.

Everything has an element of risk. Even slow and steady. Sides like North have grown moss on them waiting. Perception of momentum is just as good as real momentum.

Nas becoming elite just supercharged us. We have chosen to make a lot of massive moves to capitalise on that momentum and pour petrol on the spark. Losing favourite dons, lots of list changes, over paying all has the chance of backfiring.

I think the foundation is strong this time so we can have a bet each way but you could easily argue that we should have stayed the straight path. Only results will prove it a success.

 

[AFaiL]

Where do we hide all the depth players- do TDK and Ro play together in the same team, does Steele and all our younger mids play in the same team on the day. Not sure where they're all going fit.

Considering the guarantee there will be injuries at times, we work it week to week

If some have to play VFL the so be it - that is a great outcome and would show the strength of the team

 

[AFaiL]

Everything has an element of risk. Even slow and steady. Sides like North have grown moss on them waiting. Perception of momentum is just as good as real momentum.

Nas becoming elite just supercharged us. We have chosen to make a lot of massive moves to capitalise on that momentum and pour petrol on the spark. Losing favourite dons, lots of list changes, over paying all has the chance of backfiring.

I think the foundation is strong this time so we can have a bet each way but you could easily argue that we should have stayed the straight path. Only results will prove it a success.

But that is the thing, this isn't some each way bet, or risk, or one time crack. It is just one of 10000 ways to build a list and there is legit no right or wrong. If there was one single right way, everybody would do it. Horses for courses and there should be little to no criticism of this strategy becuase there is no gold standard.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

On our current strategy being a "risk" ... how so? It is onlk seen that way becuase the AFL media and public think trading and spending cap money isnt the right way and you must toil away at the draft until you get 22 guns... Absolute HORSE S***

Every succesfulk team has had a big blend of draftees, FAs, trades and wildcard rookies

The reason its being posed as a 'risk' is so the media can rip us down if we don't win a flag becuase they want us to remain shit.

Geelong/Hawks do it and suddenly its brilliance. The Hawks had a 34yo win their BnF, in many other teams that is seen as a very concerning factor.

We need to soend the cap money and we need to fill the list. Who gives a tinkers cuss how we do it? Draft? Trade? Off the street? It is ALL risk

The obsession with getting a free pass for drafting 18yos is a joke. Have a look at North... Genuine no mans land.

The difference being North stuffed most of their early draft picks and trades. 2020 draft Will Phillips, Tom Powell, Charlie Lazzaro, Pheonix Spicer is the classic example they have the worst list management and recruiting team in the comp. Richmond will be the exception after last years draft, they planned to trade out established players in an excellent draft year and will reap the benefits.

 

[Broski]

On our current strategy being a "risk" ... how so? It is onlk seen that way becuase the AFL media and public think trading and spending cap money isnt the right way and you must toil away at the draft until you get 22 guns... Absolute HORSE S***

Every succesfulk team has had a big blend of draftees, FAs, trades and wildcard rookies

The reason its being posed as a 'risk' is so the media can rip us down if we don't win a flag becuase they want us to remain shit.

Geelong/Hawks do it and suddenly its brilliance. The Hawks had a 34yo win their BnF, in many other teams that is seen as a very concerning factor.

We need to soend the cap money and we need to fill the list. Who gives a tinkers cuss how we do it? Draft? Trade? Off the street? It is ALL risk

The obsession with getting a free pass for drafting 18yos is a joke. Have a look at North... Genuine no mans land.

Exactly. The Hawks are probably one of the better comparisons for us. If you look at the players they brought in before they returned back to finals, they were far from world beaters (Scrimshaw, Chol, D'Ambrosio, Meek etc).

They all complemented parts of their list and how they wanted to play. I know the amount paid is different, but those are the type of players were are bringing in to some degree - not stars (apart from TDK), but will excel in their role.

It is also important to note that in the 2023 season, the year before Hawks returned to finals, they suffered eight losses that were nine goals of more. They got belted most weeks and many questioned whether Sam Mitchell's competency.

At the end of the day, the success of our strategy will be seen in a few years time. It will either be "genius" or "same old Saints lol". I hope it's the former for once.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Im sorry Tommy but I am wholly against having list cloggers to fill in just in case. Boyd was the classic example of a wasted list poistion, he was horrible when given opportunities and was a complete misuse of a list spot. If we can find a backup with a pulse it would be reasonable, but they are just not out there.

Who knows we might offer Heath a contract and he choses to remain, at least we know he still has improvement ahead.

Boyd was a classic case of a "list clogger" for one reason and one reason only. He was selected to replace Marshall as the first ruck if Marshall got injured but Marshall didn't get injured. End of story.

The idea that the club should go into the season with someone they clearly don't rate (Heath), a skinny fwd who could possibly ruck for a few minutes (Keeler) and a 1st year player (Dodson) as the fall back options for a long term injury to Marshall is ludicrous.

I suspect what actually happened was that they de-listed Tom Campbell in the expectation of getting another AFL ruckman and when that fell through they went chasing a short term mature strong body who could carry the load if Marshall copped a longish term injury.

If Marshall goes they will be faced with exactly the same problem this year.

Heath won't stay if we don't match whatever Melbourne may offer and even then he may not given that its been made fairly clear to him that he isn't rated by the coaching panel.